MotownMadness wrote:I know what he does, I've watched every game of his over the last 5 years. I was just pointing out what you basically said. He needs the right type of team around him to be real successful and I don't see that with the Bucks right now. You need a defensive 4 with a midrange shot and shooters around him.
Giannis is already that defensive 4, and he's on the verge of being enough of a stretch 4 if he's not there already. He had a decent mid-range game by the end of the season. Now he's got a whole offseason to get repetitions in to adjust to the growth spurt. Even if he never becomes more than a mid-range shooter that would be enough to get bigs off Monroe.
MCW is the only player who projects to be in his and the team's way. I think he's gone by midseason if it's not working out, and they could plug even like a Beverley-type in there and be a 50 win pace team, contender the following year. Shouldn't be that difficult.
MotownMadness wrote:As I said in a other thread about the Bucks. Monroe is a very good player but he is also a bit of a ball stopper. He has to have the ball in his hands to be effective. He offers nothing off the ball because he has no range or athleticism. I'm very interested to see him with another team now to see if he improves the Bucks or brings them down a level. I almost feel like he has to a lesser degree a Melo effect, where he's a ball stopper on the offensive side and doesn't bring anything on the defensive side. I've always felt he was a really good player just one that's hard to win with.
Our offense is weirdly constructed to go through the center on a majority of possessions. Usually right around the free throw line, where ZaZa was left wide open all the time to either take the shot or pass. If Monroe can hit that shot at a decent clip, we already know he can pass effectively from there.
Might just be one of those perfect storms where a guys game just fits the system so they are strengths, where they might be weaknesses elsewhere.
Now, I am not sure if Monroe will be able to hit that shot, but look last season at the shot charts for ZaZa, it gives you an idea of just how many touches he got there in our offense.
Pick is fine value-wise I guess. Hard to see much of a role for him at the moment.
Trades:
Rights to Norman Powell, future 1st for Grevis Vasquez
Zaza for essentially nothing Dudley for essentially nothing Ilyasova for essentially nothing
I hated this series of deals. Giving away Ilyasova gave them cap space to get Monroe and I'm on board with that move. But Zaza and Dudley are nice solid role players with one year remaining on their deals and they could easily have structured the order of deals to keep both players and they are nowhere near tax. Just really puzzling. I like Grevis as a PG option for them quite a bit. But not at that price. Just the rights to Norman Powell and absorbing the contract should have sufficed.
Free Agency:
Greg Monroe Khris Middleton
These are big money contracts for guys who probably haven't quite earned those deals yet. Both both of them will still be in their prime when these deals are done so I don't mind what looks like a slight overpay right now. Monroe(and the return of Parker) should really help the offense and Middleton is that player every team is looking to have--great shooter with size who can and will defend.
Jared Dudley. I mean seriously he is exactly what they need for forward depth and they could have kept him. They have lots of guys who can play multiple positions which is nice. Would also like to see a big man with some range.
Additional thoughts:
Find out if MCW can really be your PG. If not PG leads the shopping list in the summer. If the team is contending for a top 4 seed I would love to see them package Mayo's contract with some of their prospects and add one more major piece. Really like the Parker/Giannis/Middleton trio. I think they fit together perfectly and I would love to have that as my core. Still feels a little thin outside of that.
Win/Loss Prediction: 48-34
I think they should be better than last year and this is a team I expect to be a lot scarier at the end of the year as compared to the beginning. And if Parker can be an 18-20 ppg guy with reasonable efficiency this team is going to scare some people
Off-Season Grade: C-
They made a bunch of trades that just made no sense and they could have made the free agency moves they made without doing most of them. And a lot rides on whether or not they are right on MCW and that makes me pretty nervous.
PMOTT3 Review
Key Losses:
N/A
Other Losses:
Zaza Pachulia Jared Dudley Ersan Illyasova
Draft:
Rashad Vaughn
Didn't like the pick to be honest and thought there were a lot better options available at #17 (although it wasn't as bad as taking Rozier at #16).
Trades:
.Draft Rights to Norman Powell and 17' LAC 1st for Greivis Vasquez . Illyasova for peanuts . Dudley for roasted peanuts . Pachulia for lightly salted peanuts
I completely agree with Chuck on all of this. First off, the Vazquez trade was one of the most lop-sided trades made in the entire off season imo. A clear loss from Milwaukee's perspective. Vasquez is nice PG insurance but totally not worth what they gave up for him. Second, they could have kept Zaza and Dudley and still had the space to sign Monroe. Both those guys are nice role playing vets that any coach would love to have. I hated all of these trades with the exception of Illyasova because it had to be done for Monroe.
Free Agency:
Greg Monroe Kris Middleton
I applaud the Bucks for actually beating out the big fish in FA and getting a guy that was seen as a tier 2 maybe high tier 3 free agent. BUT, im not sure that I like the fit. Parker/Monroe should make for a great offensive front court but could have some major issues defensively. Time will tell. Anyways, I dont think either of these guys are worth what they are making now but both are still young and could play up to the value of their contracts in 1-2 years.
They need more depth at the 3 & 4. Ingles and O'Bryant strike me as fringe rotation pieces (think 11th, 12th, and 13th man). So yeah, Dudley would have been perfect. Wouldn't mind seeing them add another stretch 4 or 5 to replace what Illyasova brought or was suppose to bring I should say.
Additional Thoughts:
I really love the length of Milwaukee's starting 5. I dont think they have a guy that starts under 6"4. I think they need more help off the bench and some vets. MCW's development is huge. If his jump shot is still broken for most of this season are they still going to run with him as the starter or look for other options elsewhere? Really hoping for a bounce-back season from Parker because he looked like a leading candidate for ROTY before the injury.
Win/Loss Prediction: 39-43
This team will take a step back this season and might even miss the playoffs. People forget that this was a sub-.500 team post all star break after the Knight trade. I think MCW's shot remains broken all season. I dont think they have enough shooting in the starting 5 and i dont like the Parker/Monroe pairing in their front court.
Off-Season Grade: D
All their trades were horrible, didn't like their draft pick, and feel like Middleton and Monroe are overpays at the moment.
Overall, I appreciate the effort. I enjoy reading about other people's take on the Bucks, as our board has a weird dichatomy where we are way too critical of some players and way too high on others (though I think other than Giannis and Parker it slants way more to being too critical)
Similar take that you have already seen, looking at the sum it's really hard to say we didn't improve greatly from the team that ended last season.
Broken Dudley (who I love and wish we had kept), Inconsistent Ersan, ZaZa (his physicality will be missed), a future first that might end up being seconds but likely mid 20s, for Monroe, Parker, Vaughn, Vasquez.
I mean, that is a homerun of an upgrade regardless if all the moves were needed or not. We moved vets to open up time for young guys and we are a rebuilding team, developing our young guys. And even the pick we gave up for Vasquez (whom it clearly sounds like will be resigned) was one we acquired for taking on a good year of Dudley...it was house money.
If you look at this at each transaction, and a win now mentality the grade drops as we did a series of transactions were we took slightly valued players and picks and essential got cap space or TPE in return. If you look at this on the whole, I'm shocked their aren't more people giving this an A.
End Last year MCW, Bayless Midd, Mayo Giannis, Dudley Ersan, Johnny O'Bryant ZaZa, Henson, Plumlee
This year MCW, Vasquez, Bayless - clear upgrade moving Bayless to third spot, he played 22 min per game last year Midd, Mayo, Vaughn - slight upgrade as Vaughn provides some development shooting we didn't have Giannis, Inglis - If Giannis shot is looking as good as reported he should make up for the loss of Dudley Parker, Copeland - not even debatable how much of an upgrade this is once Parker is healthy Monroe, Henson - I love ZaZa, but again, unless this somehow just doesn't fit, a massive upgrade offensively and rebounding
I won't get too caught up in win total, largely because we were winning at a higher rate with Knight and it obviously took some time to adjust to the trade, and as others have mentioned the bench stunk. I'd say 45-48 wins sounds about right, and I would be in the market to use that TPE to bring in a vet SF that can stroke it on a 1-2 year deal.
MotownMadness wrote:As I said in a other thread about the Bucks. Monroe is a very good player but he is also a bit of a ball stopper. He has to have the ball in his hands to be effective. He offers nothing off the ball because he has no range or athleticism. I'm very interested to see him with another team now to see if he improves the Bucks or brings them down a level. I almost feel like he has to a lesser degree a Melo effect, where he's a ball stopper on the offensive side and doesn't bring anything on the defensive side. I've always felt he was a really good player just one that's hard to win with.
Our offense is weirdly constructed to go through the center on a majority of possessions. Usually right around the free throw line, where ZaZa was left wide open all the time to either take the shot or pass. If Monroe can hit that shot at a decent clip, we already know he can pass effectively from there.
Might just be one of those perfect storms where a guys game just fits the system so they are strengths, where they might be weaknesses elsewhere.
Now, I am not sure if Monroe will be able to hit that shot, but look last season at the shot charts for ZaZa, it gives you an idea of just how many touches he got there in our offense.
He can hit that shot when his feet or set. He's not incapable of hitting mid range shots but more often then not he will just pass it up no matter how wide open and try and use his good footwork to get to the rim. He just lacks confidence in his shot I believe.
He's still one of the best low scoring bigs in the game though because he has great footwork to break down any big in the game.
One of things that i feel is getting understated in this thread is this..
Just because more playing time has now been opened for the young guys by trading Zaza, Illyasova, and Dudley; It doesn't magically make those trades good deals. in terms of trade value, they were still bad deals and should have gotten more than 2nds that are so protected they won't ever see them. End rant.
PMOTT3 wrote:One of things that i feel is getting understated in this thread is this..
Just because more playing time has now been opened for the young guys by trading Zaza, Illyasova, and Dudley; It doesn't magically make those trades good deals. in terms of trade value, they were still bad deals and should have gotten more than 2nds that are so protected they won't ever see them. End rant.
Didn't Houston give up a first round pick to move 15M of Jeremy Lin? Seems to me, we outright cleared 17M dollars of salary for nothing. I think largely because our salary was usable players, but it doesn't change the fact we cleared out 17M all the same.
H2tObes wrote:How much value do injured Dudley/Zaza/Ersan have? A few seconds at most? Where is all this value that we are missing out on
I think the value you are missing out on is Jared Dudley and Zaza Pachulia personally. I agree they don't have a great deal of trade value, but they are very useful NBA players. With the ability to have made all the other moves and stayed well under the tax line I would have just kept them. And don't lump Ilya in here because his deal was needed for your other moves.
ThunderBolt wrote:I’m going to let some of you in on a little secret I learned on realgm. If you don’t like a thread, not only do you not have to comment but you don’t even have to open it and read it. You’re welcome.
I would agree that we lost out on 2 2nd round picks. Pachulia and Dudley are not worth more than a 2nd each.
It's lost value, but not much, and I would argue that sending them where they wanted to go is worth more in positive word of mouth than the 2nds are.
"This is my home, this is my city...I'm blessed to be a part of the Milwaukee Bucks for the next 5 years. Let's make these years count. The show goes on, let's get it."
buckboy wrote:I would agree that we lost out on 2 2nd round picks. Pachulia and Dudley are not worth more than a 2nd each.
It's lost value, but not much, and I would argue that sending them where they wanted to go is worth more in positive word of mouth than the 2nds are.
Fair enough--and I have enjoyed your perspective itt btw.
I know about Dudley wanting out, but was Zaza unhappy as well? Or did he just see the writing on the wall with Monroe and wanted to go somewhere he could play and obviously Dallas could offer him that?
ThunderBolt wrote:I’m going to let some of you in on a little secret I learned on realgm. If you don’t like a thread, not only do you not have to comment but you don’t even have to open it and read it. You’re welcome.
buckboy wrote:I would agree that we lost out on 2 2nd round picks. Pachulia and Dudley are not worth more than a 2nd each.
It's lost value, but not much, and I would argue that sending them where they wanted to go is worth more in positive word of mouth than the 2nds are.
Fair enough--and I have enjoyed your perspective itt btw.
I know about Dudley wanting out, but was Zaza unhappy as well? Or did he just see the writing on the wall with Monroe and wanted to go somewhere he could play and obviously Dallas could offer him that?
Other Bucks fans can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think once Monroe was signed, Zaza knew he was out. I think he liked the Dallas situation for playing time and a great coach.
The most refreshing thing that Kidd has brought here is that everyone seems to love it here, which........well, lemme see, I'm 43 and I don't really ever recall it, even when Nellie was here. All those teams did was win 55+ games, but Nellie was even more cantankerous as a young man, so I don't even think those teams liked it here as much as these guys seem to.
It's a very strange sensation having an intelligently run organization from top to bottom.
"This is my home, this is my city...I'm blessed to be a part of the Milwaukee Bucks for the next 5 years. Let's make these years count. The show goes on, let's get it."
buckboy wrote:It's a very strange sensation having an intelligently run organization from top to bottom.
I'm almost as old as you so I know exactly how you feel. The 90's were a cold, dark time in Dallas. It took me awhile to readjust to competence.
ThunderBolt wrote:I’m going to let some of you in on a little secret I learned on realgm. If you don’t like a thread, not only do you not have to comment but you don’t even have to open it and read it. You’re welcome.
I think it's hard to evaluate Milwaukee partly because they're in the East where you don't have to be so good to be one of the high seeds. That makes the standards much lower than a Western playoff team. And they did some good bad and average things.
Worst was the Greivis trade. He's a decent backup, but he's an over-paid rental. Toronto receiving 6 mil of cap space should have resulted in a pick going to Milw rather than a pick going to Toronto.
Pachulia and Dudley trades looked worse than they were. They knew Dudley needed back surgery, so his situation is problematic. Zaza was an aging backup level player without a role on this team going forward. There were better ways to use the money both are being paid this season. The Ersan trade should be lumped in with basically the same explanation.
Vaughn wouldn't have been my pick - but long-term, he might be the right pick. Remember, they made the long-term pick 2 years ago - Giannis.
Middleton was a nice signing. It wouldn't have been surprising if he got more.
Basically it comes down to whether or not you like Monroe. He'll likely have the offense run through him a fair amount, so he will have every opportunity to be used to his maximum value. Situated in the East, he'll help the team win games and perhaps win a round in the playoffs. As Giannis improves, they could actually be a very good complement up front - as long as Giannis develops a reliable jump shot and focuses on defense. Parker needs to show an improved 3 point option - which I think he will. Henson adds a rim protector to fill out a potentially nice front court. In the backcourt, Middleton, Mayo and Vaughn make the 2 spot very good. The team's question is at the point - where MCW is Kidd's special project. Ennis ain't gonna make it, imo, and Bayless is just a journeyman. so Greivis is the insurance man who'll likely end up playing a lot. My guess - 45 wins.
"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams
^^agree pretty much 100%. Particularly on the PG analysis.
I don't care how many games they win this year tbh. Just improvement from the young guys and a healthy Parker by the AllStar break. That's really all I care about. If I had one wish, it'd be that MCW develops a reliable jumper. This team becomes extremely dangerous if that happens.
"This is my home, this is my city...I'm blessed to be a part of the Milwaukee Bucks for the next 5 years. Let's make these years count. The show goes on, let's get it."
I really liked the Monroe pickup. He's no Ben Wallace, but he's surrounded by a lot of long arms and one of the most effective defensive schemes in the nba and he'll help them a lot on the offensive end. Going back to play the 5 which is his natural position will help him a lot as well.
