Middleton's Current Trade Value

[skones]

I just don't like this thread at all. It might as well be titled, "Make a lowball offer for Khris Middleton."

Except none of the posts before yours was remotely that. It really ticks me off that you take this attitude in every Bucks thread. You create teh vibe you claim to be against.

Props to all the posts itt by Bucks fans and others showing how to have a worthy discussion on a topic. Terrific thread with great tone.

MKG and a late lotto 1st is lowball
A package centered around Kaminsky is lowball
Wes Matthews/Seth Curry/9 is lowball

Afterwards

Dipo is lowball

What I stated isn't nearly as off base as you're making it seem. None of these deals puts Milwaukee in a better position to win now, and none of them improve our outlook moving forward, yet here you are again, jumping on my case when I want value a guy for my team and the offers are flat out sub par.

[Andre Roberstan]

I just don't like this thread at all. It might as well be titled, "Make a lowball offer for Khris Middleton."

Except none of the posts before yours was remotely that. It really ticks me off that you take this attitude in every Bucks thread. You create teh vibe you claim to be against.

Props to all the posts itt by Bucks fans and others showing how to have a worthy discussion on a topic. Terrific thread with great tone.

MKG and a late lotto 1st is lowball
A package centered around Kaminsky is lowball
Wes Matthews/Seth Curry/9 is lowball

Afterwards

Dipo is lowball

What I stated isn't nearly as off base as you're making it seem.

So let's actually take a look at this.

chellis said:

If we were to open negotiations I believe most base offers would start around MKG and our 2017 1st.

Then after that said

Since that's the case Frank Kaminsky is the only other player the Hornets have that fits that criteria.

Adding Kaminsky to MKG and the 2017 1st may be low, but it's not insulting, and the fact that he said "base offer", asked for clarification from Bucks fans on what they were looking for, and then stated what other players they had that the team might be willing to part with...that's what the Trades and Transactions forum does.

Then let's look at the Matthews/Curry/9 offer from daoneandonly and the MYRIAD qualifications in the offer:

I wish Dallas had something to offer.

I'm sure it's too light

if it's an insulting homer offer, my apologies.

And Dn4sty's Dipo offer. Which is a lowball, but TBF he doesn't post on T&T much and doesn't really know trade value as well as some of the regulars. And LuessiT immediately pointed the issue out.

Maybe a trade centered around Dipo for Middleton

Pretty far off in value. Middleton is clearly the much better player.

If you are going to be offended by this thread, I'm not sure how you walk outside and talk to people in real life in the world. If people are off on value, let them find out through talking to the other people in the thread. If it's bad, the mods will lock it.

[skones]

If you are going to be offended by this thread, I'm not sure how you walk outside and talk to people in real life in the world. If people are off on value, let them find out through talking to the other people in the thread. If it's bad, the mods will lock it.

All fair points, though interesting you excluded the part where Charlotte would have to be convinced to include Frank Kaminsky which would allude to that being an overpay on their end. I fail to see where I come off as "offended." The context of a thread of a core piece, coming off a major injury, having a poor playoff series. What you're going to get is a lot of offers trying to steal Middleton. No offered deal is going to make it worthwhile for the Bucks to move him. You're either going to get worse players in quantity, or youre going to get value youth which only sets the current trajectory for the team back and frustrates your small market superstar Giannis who clearly showed he's ready to win.

[shrink]

Personally, I love the guy. For me, he checks all the boxes. The only problem will be in two years, when it's time to get paid. I imagine he could draw a max deal offer from somebody, but I find it hard to give out max deals to a guy that won't ever be a star. That said, I would give an awful lot for the guy, and expect that he returns to full form next Fall.

I don't see that as an issue. You are getting great value for two years and then see what happens. Also, what is the average contract length now 3 or 4 years? Most teams aren't trading players year 1 of their deal, if they are, that's a red flag. If they are trading them saying year 2 of a 4 year deal, it's usually at the deadline, so you are down to 2.5 years which seems like the max value vs. length from a non-rookie contract you can expect to get in trade.

Oh, I completely agree with you, and I apologize for writing that so poorly.

What I meant to say was that since he is good at everything, he checks all the boxes. He will continue to check all those boxes for two full years, and only then will there be a question. I didn't mean to say I would reduce his trade value for that decision two years from now, though I can see how that it looks like that. My bad.

[Andre Roberstan]

If you are going to be offended by this thread, I'm not sure how you walk outside and talk to people in real life in the world. If people are off on value, let them find out through talking to the other people in the thread. If it's bad, the mods will lock it.

All fair points, though interesting you excluded the part where Charlotte would have to be convinced to include Frank Kaminsky which would allude to that being an overpay on their end. I fail to see where I come off as "offended." The context of a thread of a core piece, coming off a major injury, having a poor playoff series. What you're going to get is a lot of offers trying to steal Middleton. No offered deal is going to make it worthwhile for the Bucks to move him. You're either going to get worse players in quantity, or youre going to get value youth which only sets the current trajectory for the team back and frustrates your small market superstar Giannis who clearly showed he's ready to win.

I agree on the general point. I don't think they should trade him. re: Kaminsky, there's a difference between "this guy isn't worth that" and "my team wouldn't pay that". Charlotte's in a bad spot with salary—they need their rookie-scale contributors.

But you have a good mod team in place in this forum. If the thread is too bad, they will lock it. Trust them to do their jobs.

Even if no worthwhile deal is offered, there's value to be found in the process, where people from other fanbases find out the worth of players for different teams. I'm a better judge of players from other teams due to having talked to a lot of people on T&T over the years re: players' value. Some of whom would never be moved from their current teams.

[FNQ]

If you are going to be offended by this thread, I'm not sure how you walk outside and talk to people in real life in the world. If people are off on value, let them find out through talking to the other people in the thread. If it's bad, the mods will lock it.

All fair points, though interesting you excluded the part where Charlotte would have to be convinced to include Frank Kaminsky which would allude to that being an overpay on their end. I fail to see where I come off as "offended." The context of a thread of a core piece, coming off a major injury, having a poor playoff series. What you're going to get is a lot of offers trying to steal Middleton. No offered deal is going to make it worthwhile for the Bucks to move him. You're either going to get worse players in quantity, or youre going to get value youth which only sets the current trajectory for the team back and frustrates your small market superstar Giannis who clearly showed he's ready to win.

I created an Isaiah Thomas thread that was in the exact same style as this one: it isn't as much about the Bucks accepting any offer, as it is establishing a baseline value for a player who's value isn't especially clear. In my thread, I didnt expect Boston fans to accept any offers, because IT has more value to them than anyone else. Much like Middleton to the Bucks.

The point here, as said in the OP, is to find what Middleton's value is, and where he ranks against SGs in the league. Thus there is no real way to lowball if a fan of another team is giving what they feel is fair value for Middleton. It might not meet MIL fans' standards, but lowballing someone would imply that Middleton is on the block or that MIL is looking to deal him, both of which seem incredibly unlikely at best. We're defining value through the eyes of outsiders. Much like 99% of threads here, there likely wont be a majority agreement on both sides. The ultimate goal should be to find a range between what outsiders believe he's worth and what MIL fans believe he's worth. But if you walk in with the idea that this thread is going to suck, then just don't participate. Otherwise, participate and explain why Middleton is more valuable to the Bucks than offers being thrown out

[TTP]

Well, the wolves would have easily done just that if the rumors are to be believed. Offer was apparently on the table of #5 overall + Rubio for Middleton before the draft.

I must have been living under a rock. I don't remember those rumors. Maybe I need to watch Middleton.

At the end of last year, he was a 24 year old SG coming off a 18-4-4 season on .560 TS% (1.7 spg to boot) who can play 2-4.. He's really good. Until he tore his hamstring in September, anyways. Came back a little rusty to start but proved his health by the end of the season, with nearly identical advanced and per 36 stats as the year before.

I think he's in the conversation for top 5 SG. And his importance is tripled in Milwaukee due to their lack of outside shooting.

I think he's in the conversation for top 2 SG.

[FNQ]

I must have been living under a rock. I don't remember those rumors. Maybe I need to watch Middleton.

At the end of last year, he was a 24 year old SG coming off a 18-4-4 season on .560 TS% (1.7 spg to boot) who can play 2-4.. He's really good. Until he tore his hamstring in September, anyways. Came back a little rusty to start but proved his health by the end of the season, with nearly identical advanced and per 36 stats as the year before.

I think he's in the conversation for top 5 SG. And his importance is tripled in Milwaukee due to their lack of outside shooting.

I think he's in the conversation for top 2 SG.

Quite possibly, yeah. After Harden, I think its really a free for all. Klay, Middleton, Beal, McCollum, DeRozan... Devin Booker and Norman Powell could be part of that equation soon too. Now that I see them spelled out, I actually dont see how I could possibly rank Middleton lower than 4, with 3 being most likely for me (Harden -- Klay -- Middleton -- DeRozan -- Beal)

[Asian Celtic]

At the end of last year, he was a 24 year old SG coming off a 18-4-4 season on .560 TS% (1.7 spg to boot) who can play 2-4.. He's really good. Until he tore his hamstring in September, anyways. Came back a little rusty to start but proved his health by the end of the season, with nearly identical advanced and per 36 stats as the year before.

I think he's in the conversation for top 5 SG. And his importance is tripled in Milwaukee due to their lack of outside shooting.

I think he's in the conversation for top 2 SG.

Quite possibly, yeah. After Harden, I think its really a free for all. Klay, Middleton, Beal, McCollum, DeRozan... Devin Booker and Norman Powell could be part of that equation soon too. Now that I see them spelled out, I actually dont see how I could possibly rank Middleton lower than 4, with 3 being most likely for me (Harden -- Klay -- Middleton -- DeRozan -- Beal)

If we're trying to gauge Middleton's value by comparing SG's, how would you feel if you Replace <iddleton to any of those SG's on their teams?

Middleton in GSW over klay?
Middleton over Beal in Washington?
Middleton over McCollum in Portland?
Middleton over Derozan in Toronto?
Or Middleton over Bradley in Boston?

[hege53190]

I think he's in the conversation for top 2 SG.

Quite possibly, yeah. After Harden, I think its really a free for all. Klay, Middleton, Beal, McCollum, DeRozan... Devin Booker and Norman Powell could be part of that equation soon too. Now that I see them spelled out, I actually dont see how I could possibly rank Middleton lower than 4, with 3 being most likely for me (Harden -- Klay -- Middleton -- DeRozan -- Beal)

If we're trying to gauge Middleton's value by comparing SG's, how would you feel if you Replace <iddleton to any of those SG's on their teams?

Middleton in GSW over klay?
Middleton over Beal in Washington?
Middleton over McCollum in Portland?
Middleton over Derozan in Toronto?
Or Middleton over Bradley in Boston?

Klay is better and the perfect fit for GSW. I think you get a boost over Beal, McCollum, Derozan, Bradley. Middleton when healthy is an amazing player. He got the flu in late March or early April and never really recovered. Even then he was a huge boost for the Bucks whenever he was on the court.

If he replaced any of the other 4 I think the team would be better with Middleton.

The Milwaukee Bucks were 22-30 before Middleton came back. They were 20-10 after he came back and that was pretty much a 100% swap with Jabari Parker. That team could have been better with both. Middleton is a difference maker.

[bdpecore]

Quite possibly, yeah. After Harden, I think its really a free for all. Klay, Middleton, Beal, McCollum, DeRozan... Devin Booker and Norman Powell could be part of that equation soon too. Now that I see them spelled out, I actually dont see how I could possibly rank Middleton lower than 4, with 3 being most likely for me (Harden -- Klay -- Middleton -- DeRozan -- Beal)

If we're trying to gauge Middleton's value by comparing SG's, how would you feel if you Replace <iddleton to any of those SG's on their teams?

Middleton in GSW over klay?
Middleton over Beal in Washington?
Middleton over McCollum in Portland?
Middleton over Derozan in Toronto?
Or Middleton over Bradley in Boston?

Klay is better and the perfect fit for GSW. I think you get a boost over Beal, McCollum, Derozan, Bradley. Middleton when healthy is an amazing player. He got the flu in late March or early April and never really recovered. Even then he was a huge boost for the Bucks whenever he was on the court.

If he replaced any of the other 4 I think the team would be better with Middleton.

The Milwaukee Bucks were 22-30 before Middleton came back. They were 20-10 after he came back and that was pretty much a 100% swap with Jabari Parker. That team could have been better with both. Middleton is a difference maker.

I know Butler played SF last season after they signed DWade but I feel his natural position is SG and should be included in the rankings. Personally, I see Middleton'a value on par with Butler's. Scoring wise Jimmy gets the edge on both sides of the ball (a little more so on offense) but Middleton makes up for it with being a better distributor, having a team friendly contract and his attitude/locker room presence. I agree Harden is #1 followed by Klay. So I'd put Khris tied for 3rd with Butler and ahead of the remaining players listed. Using the comparison above, I think swapping Butler and Middleton would leave both teams in the exact same spots they are now.

[Pinkyring]

His value may be of a top ten pick but why any team in the top would do it is beyond me. Unless boston lands outside the top 3 why would minny or dallas trade 6 or 9 for a guy u only have two years of thats less than year removed from major injury? When he comes up for a extention minny will be paying wiggins towns and levin close to max or max and thats not even counting what they do with dieng and rubio. Thats roughly a 120 million dollar roster. Dallas is the same we are going to be paying max to barnes and noel so we max middleton too? Thats a very underwhelming core without a star for them to compliment. Even if the pick is 70% of what middleton is u still have 4 years cheap labor plus control the option to keep him. Middleton could not like where he is and bolt somewhere else

[Trader_Joe]

An interesting side not in this thread...Should we calling Harden a SG or PG? Especially with the Harden/Westbrook debates. And does Harden's value fluctuate as a PG vs. SG?

[gardenofsound]

Bucks out: Khris Middleton, Malcolm Brogdon
Bucks in: Jimmy Butler

[gardenofsound]

If we're trying to gauge Middleton's value by comparing SG's, how would you feel if you Replace <iddleton to any of those SG's on their teams?

Middleton in GSW over klay?
Middleton over Beal in Washington?
Middleton over McCollum in Portland?
Middleton over Derozan in Toronto?
Or Middleton over Bradley in Boston?

Klay is better and the perfect fit for GSW. I think you get a boost over Beal, McCollum, Derozan, Bradley. Middleton when healthy is an amazing player. He got the flu in late March or early April and never really recovered. Even then he was a huge boost for the Bucks whenever he was on the court.

If he replaced any of the other 4 I think the team would be better with Middleton.

The Milwaukee Bucks were 22-30 before Middleton came back. They were 20-10 after he came back and that was pretty much a 100% swap with Jabari Parker. That team could have been better with both. Middleton is a difference maker.

I know Butler played SF last season after they signed DWade but I feel his natural position is SG and should be included in the rankings. Personally, I see Middleton'a value on par with Butler's. Scoring wise Jimmy gets the edge on both sides of the ball (a little more so on offense) but Middleton makes up for it with being a better distributor, having a team friendly contract and his attitude/locker room presence. I agree Harden is #1 followed by Klay. So I'd put Khris tied for 3rd with Butler and ahead of the remaining players listed. Using the comparison above, I think swapping Butler and Middleton would leave both teams in the exact same spots they are now.

I disagree. I think Butler is a much better overall player than Middleton. All Middleton has on him is three point shooting. Butler does just about everything else as well as, or better than Middleton. Rebounding, defense, 2P fg %. When it comes to the playoffs, Butler has consistently outperformed Middleton.

[bdpecore]

Bucks out: Khris Middleton, Malcolm Brogdon
Bucks in: Jimmy Butler

I don't see the benefit from the Bucks perspective. They basically are swapping SGs of similar value while adding their rookie starting PG just because? They are also adding more salary which puts them even more over the cap. Here would be my counter offer.

Middleton, Monroe and 2017 2nd for Butler and RoLo. Helps even out the salaries while still keeping both teams competitive next season.

[hege53190]

If we're trying to gauge Middleton's value by comparing SG's, how would you feel if you Replace <iddleton to any of those SG's on their teams?

Middleton in GSW over klay?
Middleton over Beal in Washington?
Middleton over McCollum in Portland?
Middleton over Derozan in Toronto?
Or Middleton over Bradley in Boston?

Klay is better and the perfect fit for GSW. I think you get a boost over Beal, McCollum, Derozan, Bradley. Middleton when healthy is an amazing player. He got the flu in late March or early April and never really recovered. Even then he was a huge boost for the Bucks whenever he was on the court.

If he replaced any of the other 4 I think the team would be better with Middleton.

The Milwaukee Bucks were 22-30 before Middleton came back. They were 20-10 after he came back and that was pretty much a 100% swap with Jabari Parker. That team could have been better with both. Middleton is a difference maker.

I know Butler played SF last season after they signed DWade but I feel his natural position is SG and should be included in the rankings. Personally, I see Middleton'a value on par with Butler's. Scoring wise Jimmy gets the edge on both sides of the ball (a little more so on offense) but Middleton makes up for it with being a better distributor, having a team friendly contract and his attitude/locker room presence. I agree Harden is #1 followed by Klay. So I'd put Khris tied for 3rd with Butler and ahead of the remaining players listed. Using the comparison above, I think swapping Butler and Middleton would leave both teams in the exact same spots they are now.

Then I don't understand how you can then say that you would trade Middleton for the #6 pick in the draft.

Bulls fans talk about needing Brooklyn Pick ++ for Butler. You settle for the #6 pick.

A Middleton trade makes sense in the right situation.

That situation in my opinion is pretty much the Wolves and 76ers. A team with superstar type young talent where Middleton can come in and lead. He helps a team win and then after they get up and running he falls back into an unbelievable #3.

The only reason I would do a trade is because outside of Giannis and Middleton the Bucks are pretty starved for impact talent. If a team that saw they could jump start their team with Middleton and overpaid I would think about doing it.

What am I talking about?

76ers trade: Okafor, Saric, #4, Sacto 2019 pick
Milwaukee trades: Khris Middleton, John Henson

Why for Milwaukee: Talent infusion, They need talent.

Why for Philly: If they get a top 3 pick they will have 3 high end talented prospects with zero NBA experience. Khris Middleton helps them win games, prop up some of these rookies, and is the perfect compliment to the talent in the organization. They pay a very steep price but at the end of the day they would have Fultz, Middleton, Simmons, Embiid core.

With max cap space they could add even more impact talent.


For the Wolves it would have to be Kris Dunn, #6, Ricky Rubio, 2018 pick, 2019 pick swap, 2020 pick, Jordan Hill

For

Khris Middleton, John Henson, Mirza

This would give the Wolves a core of Towns, Wiggins, Middleton, Lavine.

It would be an overpay by both teams. But that is the only way I could see Milwaukee moving Middleton. He is just to perfect of a fit next to Giannis.

[bdpecore]

Klay is better and the perfect fit for GSW. I think you get a boost over Beal, McCollum, Derozan, Bradley. Middleton when healthy is an amazing player. He got the flu in late March or early April and never really recovered. Even then he was a huge boost for the Bucks whenever he was on the court.

If he replaced any of the other 4 I think the team would be better with Middleton.

The Milwaukee Bucks were 22-30 before Middleton came back. They were 20-10 after he came back and that was pretty much a 100% swap with Jabari Parker. That team could have been better with both. Middleton is a difference maker.

I know Butler played SF last season after they signed DWade but I feel his natural position is SG and should be included in the rankings. Personally, I see Middleton'a value on par with Butler's. Scoring wise Jimmy gets the edge on both sides of the ball (a little more so on offense) but Middleton makes up for it with being a better distributor, having a team friendly contract and his attitude/locker room presence. I agree Harden is #1 followed by Klay. So I'd put Khris tied for 3rd with Butler and ahead of the remaining players listed. Using the comparison above, I think swapping Butler and Middleton would leave both teams in the exact same spots they are now.

I disagree. I think Butler is a much better overall player than Middleton. All Middleton has on him is three point shooting. Butler does just about everything else as well as, or better than Middleton. Rebounding, defense, 2P fg %. When it comes to the playoffs, Butler has consistently outperformed Middleton.

While I agree Butler is the better overall player, Middleton is a much better distributor which to me is extremely important when discussing premiere players. You are also not taking into account their contracts Butler ($18.7MM,$19.8MM); Middleton ($14.1MM, $13MM) and furthermore their attitudes. Butler is a me first player who has been a detriment in the locker room if he is not the focal point on offense while Khris is a positive locker room presence who has no problem taking a backseat to Giannis and Jabari.

Edit: Those intangibles do have value when GMs are considering any player. If you don't think a player's attitude factors into their value just look no further than Boogie and now Dwight Howard. I'm not saying Jimmy is on their level but he does have a past of doing some similar things as these two.

[FNQ]

An interesting side not in this thread...Should we calling Harden a SG or PG? Especially with the Harden/Westbrook debates. And does Harden's value fluctuate as a PG vs. SG?

I'd call him a SG, mainly because I define what a position is by who they guard most frequently. There are exceptions, but with Harden.. if you call him a PG, that means Beverly is the SG. I dont think Harden's value would fluctuate at all, he is who he is no matter what position you put him at.

With SG/SFs + PF/Cs we can see them as interchangeable.. some SGs do that with PG too. Some SFs do that with PF. Accurate arguments can really be made on either side, ultimately comes down to personal preference. For example, I intentionally left Butler and PG13 (both of whom I'd consider better than Klay and Middleton, handily) off my top SGs list, because I tend to label them SFs. But if someone pounded the table for them to be considered at SG too or SG only, I mean, why not? They can definitely play both.

And I also tend to think that if someone is good enough to be elite at multiple positions, their value doesnt fluctuate. But take someone like Harrison Barnes - I think when you consider him a PF, his value goes up compared to him as a traditional SF. At least right now.

[gardenofsound]

Bucks out: Khris Middleton, Malcolm Brogdon
Bucks in: Jimmy Butler

I don't see the benefit from the Bucks perspective. They basically are swapping SGs of similar value while adding their rookie starting PG just because? They are also adding more salary which puts them even more over the cap. Here would be my counter offer.

Middleton, Monroe and 2017 2nd for Butler and RoLo. Helps even out the salaries while still keeping both teams competitive next season.

I--and the rest of the league for that matter--do not see Butler and Middleton as similar value, and I want no parts of Monroe, so here's a counter offer:

Middleton, Maker, Dellevadova for Butler, RoLo.

This is a pretty strong tank move by the Bulls, BTW.