Ben Simmons Containment Thread Take 3

[gambitx777]

So every goinf off on how valuable Simmons is . Look how messy this is getting and realize that he's going to need to be dumped this isn't top 5 player harden wanting out this is a but hurt borderline over paid Ben Simmons with many holes in his game being a premadana. This is gonna be bad.

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[giberish]

How are you valuing Mitchell?

As the #9 pick. Summer league doesn't matter unless you lose a limb.

I agree for the most part. I thought you said you had Hield+9 before the draft, and now need to add another first to Mitchell. May have misread

I was thinking Heild + #9 was at least close. But probably needed a bit more. Mitchell + Heild is close but probably needs a bit more.

[the_process]

I do not see Davion Mitchell as the key piece in a Ben Simmons trade unless Portland (or Washington I guess) really wants him.

[zimpy27]

Rubio would have been a damn good salary filler for what they are building

Yep.. Rubio lets you start Curry and gives you all the playmaking you need.

Rubio, Curry, Green, Harris, Embiid -- Maxey, Beasley, Thybulle, Reed, Drummond -- Springer, Joe, Milton, Korkmaz, Niang

Then just a bunch of future MIN picks to move in a Lillard trade or a trade for someone else that pops up.

Think I’d rather just get fox

Yeah he's a good choice if you can get hm

[ChuckDurn]

Warriors paying a lot for a crisis at the wing position.

Yeah, that proposed deal is laughable from the Golden State end. Give up all 3 recent first-rounders, another #1 pick, leaving a clear risk at the 3 (no way can you count on the oft-injured Porter and 37-year-old Iguodala to hold it down), and what you get back is a guy who plays the same position as Draymond (forcing him to wear down in the regular season by playing center most of the time), and a guy who’s admittedly only going to be a back-up and would certainly leave after one season?

It’s so far beyond realistic as to be a joke.

What are YOU expecting to pay for an ALL NBA player to add to ur championship core? Scrubs? There is not a lot of ALL NBA players or even all stars you can add that are on the trade block.

You are bringing up draft pick positions like they mean something in the nba. Once you are drafted, you are just like everyone else. besides ur salary. Lots of the guys, Kuminga, Moody and Wiseman may turn out. Or they may not. Just because you are a high pick, doesn't mean you will amount to anything. Talk to Anthony Bennett, Oden etc. Talk to Fred Vanvleet who was undrafted and averaged 20 last year. That's why trading proven players for unknowns are risky. You just dont know what they will be. Moody, Wiseman and Kuminga may all be all stars one day. But the odds are very very against them.

Wiseman showed flashes last year but not much after that. Maybe getting minutes will help that. Who knows. Moody and Kuminga are draft picks from this year. They may turn out or they wont. Only time will tell.

That's the risk reward. GS needs stars now before Curry retires to help win chips. There is only so many guys that could help that are all star or all nba that fits what Kerr wants to do. Siakam is at the top of that list. For that, u pay a premium. Pretty simple.

You are also getting Dragic who averaged 14/4/3 in 26 minutes last year. He is no slouch. Went to the finals 2 years ago.

Let me turn the question around on you: what SHOULD a team trade in order to acquire a one-time all-NBA player, who wasn’t all-NBA in the most recent year, is coming off a serious injury that will cause him to miss the start of the one season when you’re absolutely going “all-in” to win, and creates a positional clash (with Draymond) and positional gap (at SF if Wiggins is traded), which inherently hampers you during that all-in year?

And sure, Dragic is fine, but he’s almost assuredly a 1-year rental, so the team damn well better win it all that year, despite being completely dependent on 2 guys coming off major injuries (Siakam and Klay).

Your problem in debating this with me is that I don’t think Siakam is a good fit for the Warriors at anything close to a fair value for him - and by that, I mean what OTHER teams, in other situations and rosters, might pay for him.

But I’d encourage you to find a single Warriors fan who would agree to the trade you proposed for us, which is:
Siakam (injured) + Dragic (expiring contract) + Gillespie (12th man)
For
Wiggins + Wiseman + Kuminga + Moody + a future #1 pick

When you find a Warriors fan - a legitimate Warriors fan - who would take that deal, send them my way.

[Rastas]

So every goinf off on how valuable Simmons is . Look how messy this is getting and realize that he's going to need to be dumped this isn't top 5 player harden wanting out this is a but hurt borderline over paid Ben Simmons with many holes in his game being a premadana. This is gonna be bad.

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Not really.
I can see plenty more teams interested in Ben than Harden, Lillard etc.
Those guys will require alot more to give up and then the existing team will need to be built around those guys as their new no1 banana.
With Ben you get All NBA defence , a pass first so not to upset any exisiting stars and all the speed, size and 1% efforts that are needed to get the win.
I agree he has a "Mental Problem" , but getting away from Embiid Ball may cure that.
Depending how Philly handle this - there should be at least a dozen teams putting in offers for him.
Teams obviously value him more than many RealGMers.

[Klomp]

SAC Out: Hield (23), protected 1st
SAC In: Beasley (15), Maxey (2.6), McDaniels (2)

PHI Out: Simmons (33), Maxey (2.6)
PHI In: Hield (23), Prince (13), 3 protected 1sts, 1 swap

MIN Out: Beasley (15), McDaniels (2), Prince (13), 2 protected 1sts, 1 swap
MIN In: Simmons (33)

Word of Maxey/Klutch adds an interesting wrinkle to the Simmons/MIN talks, as MIN trade piece Malik Beasley is also a Klutch client. I was just thinking about Hield and Beasley in comparison with each other in terms of attractiveness to PHI. I think they're similar players. Personally, I would take Beasley. Hield has better rep leaguewide but Beasley is 4 years younger and a lot cheaper. But the Klutch comments plus age may actually make PHI want to do that swap. SAC gets a few nice prospects for doing business, even though they miss out on Simmons.

A lot of debate among MIN fans on the package, as many will think it's too steep, but I think it would be worth it in the long run.

PHI gets an okay return. I know they don't necessarily want a rebuilding package, but the picks can be used if/when POR or WAS decide to blow things up.

[Darthlukey]

So every goinf off on how valuable Simmons is . Look how messy this is getting and realize that he's going to need to be dumped this isn't top 5 player harden wanting out this is a but hurt borderline over paid Ben Simmons with many holes in his game being a premadana. This is gonna be bad.

Sent from my SM-G991U1 using RealGM mobile app

Not really.
I can see plenty more teams interested in Ben than Harden, Lillard etc.
Those guys will require alot more to give up and then the existing team will need to be built around those guys as their new no1 banana.
With Ben you get All NBA defence , a pass first so not to upset any exisiting stars and all the speed, size and 1% efforts that are needed to get the win.
I agree he has a "Mental Problem" , but getting away from Embiid Ball may cure that.
Depending how Philly handle this - there should be at least a dozen teams putting in offers for him.
Teams obviously value him more than many RealGMers.

Agree with some of what you are saying, but to suggest a team doesnt need to be built around Simmons is going to lead to similar problems as he is having in Philly. You build around him properly (ie shooters) and he may be one of the most dangerous players in the game. You half-ass the roster construction and he may as well stay in Philly

[Rastas]

So every goinf off on how valuable Simmons is . Look how messy this is getting and realize that he's going to need to be dumped this isn't top 5 player harden wanting out this is a but hurt borderline over paid Ben Simmons with many holes in his game being a premadana. This is gonna be bad.

Sent from my SM-G991U1 using RealGM mobile app

Not really.
I can see plenty more teams interested in Ben than Harden, Lillard etc.
Those guys will require alot more to give up and then the existing team will need to be built around those guys as their new no1 banana.
With Ben you get All NBA defence , a pass first so not to upset any exisiting stars and all the speed, size and 1% efforts that are needed to get the win.
I agree he has a "Mental Problem" , but getting away from Embiid Ball may cure that.
Depending how Philly handle this - there should be at least a dozen teams putting in offers for him.
Teams obviously value him more than many RealGMers.

Agree with some of what you are saying, but to suggest a team doesnt need to be built around Simmons is going to lead to similar problems as he is having in Philly. You build around him properly (ie shooters) and he may be one of the most dangerous players in the game. You half-ass the roster construction and he may as well stay in Philly

Honestly he just needs to be the primary big on a team - oh and a few decent shooters , everything else his IQ will work out.

[Chinook]

I don't think Philly would trade Simmons and take on so much bad salary for three protected picks and a swap. I don't know that that package would get cap space.

Sacramento isn't trading Hield and a first for a couple of guards and an okay SF prospect. Their strength is their young back court. If Hield is so bad that SAC does this, then he's certainly too bad to expect Philly to want him in a Simmons trade.

Minny absolutely kills it in this deal. They give up very little for a star. I agree the Wolves need a third team to get a Simmons trade off the ground, but to be honest, proposals involving them should have that third team be the clear loser of the trade. Minny needs to trick someone else into giving the real value for Simmons in exchange for the Wolves' package. This proposal really doesn't do that. What actually needs to happen in a three-team trade is that the Wolves need to trade for Fox and then add to him to get Simmons. Otherwise they probably can't get Ben while protecting KAT, Russell and Edwards.

I really just don't think the Wolves have any chance if they aren't going to come correct on a deal.

[shangrila]

Sacramento stealing all kinds of value here.

[Sportfan73]

Not really.
I can see plenty more teams interested in Ben than Harden, Lillard etc.
Those guys will require alot more to give up and then the existing team will need to be built around those guys as their new no1 banana.
With Ben you get All NBA defence , a pass first so not to upset any exisiting stars and all the speed, size and 1% efforts that are needed to get the win.
I agree he has a "Mental Problem" , but getting away from Embiid Ball may cure that.
Depending how Philly handle this - there should be at least a dozen teams putting in offers for him.
Teams obviously value him more than many RealGMers.

Agree with some of what you are saying, but to suggest a team doesnt need to be built around Simmons is going to lead to similar problems as he is having in Philly. You build around him properly (ie shooters) and he may be one of the most dangerous players in the game. You half-ass the roster construction and he may as well stay in Philly

Honestly he just needs to be the primary big on a team - oh and a few decent shooters , everything else his IQ will work out.

Yeah Simmons for Fox makes so much sense.

[ChuckDurn]

SAC Out: Hield (23), protected 1st
SAC In: Beasley (15), Maxey (2.6), McDaniels (2)

PHI Out: Simmons (33), Maxey (2.6)
PHI In: Hield (23), Prince (13), 3 protected 1sts, 1 swap

MIN Out: Beasley (15), McDaniels (2), Prince (13), 2 protected 1sts, 1 swap
MIN In: Simmons (33)

Word of Maxey/Klutch adds an interesting wrinkle to the Simmons/MIN talks, as MIN trade piece Malik Beasley is also a Klutch client. I was just thinking about Hield and Beasley in comparison with each other in terms of attractiveness to PHI. I think they're similar players. Personally, I would take Beasley. Hield has better rep leaguewide but Beasley is 4 years younger and a lot cheaper. But the Klutch comments plus age may actually make PHI want to do that swap. SAC gets a few nice prospects for doing business, even though they miss out on Simmons.

A lot of debate among MIN fans on the package, as many will think it's too steep, but I think it would be worth it in the long run.

PHI gets an okay return. I know they don't necessarily want a rebuilding package, but the picks can be used if/when POR or WAS decide to blow things up.

This probably should get moved over to the “Simmons Containment Thread”, but on its own I think it doesn’t work from the Sacramento end. Beasley’s a good player and Maxey’s a good prospect, but the Kings already have 3 guards that they want to give their playing time to (Fox/Haliburton/Mitchell), so it’s not a good positional fit for them to be getting back 2 guards in the deal. (Yes, I think they’d be happy to trade Hield, but for help in the frontcourt rather than more backcourt players.) They may like McDaniels, but the positional logjam in the backcourt that this aggravates probably reduces the value to them to the extent that they wouldn’t be willing to contribute the draft pick.

For Philadelphia as well, they would need to bring back (in any Simmons deal) some playmakers on offense. Hield’s a great shooter (though somewhat redundant with Set Curry), but he doesn’t make plays, and obviously Prince doesn’t make plays either. And generally, they’re in “win-now” mode, and would want more immediate help than future draft assets (in my opinion), and I think they’ll insist on at least 1 player coming back who is going to be more of a star than either Hield or Prince.

[Commodor]

Yeah, that proposed deal is laughable from the Golden State end. Give up all 3 recent first-rounders, another #1 pick, leaving a clear risk at the 3 (no way can you count on the oft-injured Porter and 37-year-old Iguodala to hold it down), and what you get back is a guy who plays the same position as Draymond (forcing him to wear down in the regular season by playing center most of the time), and a guy who’s admittedly only going to be a back-up and would certainly leave after one season?

It’s so far beyond realistic as to be a joke.

What are YOU expecting to pay for an ALL NBA player to add to ur championship core? Scrubs? There is not a lot of ALL NBA players or even all stars you can add that are on the trade block.

You are bringing up draft pick positions like they mean something in the nba. Once you are drafted, you are just like everyone else. besides ur salary. Lots of the guys, Kuminga, Moody and Wiseman may turn out. Or they may not. Just because you are a high pick, doesn't mean you will amount to anything. Talk to Anthony Bennett, Oden etc. Talk to Fred Vanvleet who was undrafted and averaged 20 last year. That's why trading proven players for unknowns are risky. You just dont know what they will be. Moody, Wiseman and Kuminga may all be all stars one day. But the odds are very very against them.

Wiseman showed flashes last year but not much after that. Maybe getting minutes will help that. Who knows. Moody and Kuminga are draft picks from this year. They may turn out or they wont. Only time will tell.

That's the risk reward. GS needs stars now before Curry retires to help win chips. There is only so many guys that could help that are all star or all nba that fits what Kerr wants to do. Siakam is at the top of that list. For that, u pay a premium. Pretty simple.

You are also getting Dragic who averaged 14/4/3 in 26 minutes last year. He is no slouch. Went to the finals 2 years ago.

Let me turn the question around on you: what SHOULD a team trade in order to acquire a one-time all-NBA player, who wasn’t all-NBA in the most recent year, is coming off a serious injury that will cause him to miss the start of the one season when you’re absolutely going “all-in” to win, and creates a positional clash (with Draymond) and positional gap (at SF if Wiggins is traded), which inherently hampers you during that all-in year?

And sure, Dragic is fine, but he’s almost assuredly a 1-year rental, so the team damn well better win it all that year, despite being completely dependent on 2 guys coming off major injuries (Siakam and Klay).

Your problem in debating this with me is that I don’t think Siakam is a good fit for the Warriors at anything close to a fair value for him - and by that, I mean what OTHER teams, in other situations and rosters, might pay for him.

But I’d encourage you to find a single Warriors fan who would agree to the trade you proposed for us, which is:
Siakam (injured) + Dragic (expiring contract) + Gillespie (12th man)
For
Wiggins + Wiseman + Kuminga + Moody + a future #1 pick

When you find a Warriors fan - a legitimate Warriors fan - who would take that deal, send them my way.

Another, I hope legitimate, warrior fan here.

I agree that siakam is worth that on the market.

As mentioned, to GSW he simply is not.

There’s literally hundreds of pages between the T&T board, GSW and TOR boards on this scenario.

Basically TOR values Siakam like it’s 2019. GSW doesn’t want another PF at that price.

I’d suggest reading up on it. You’ll find quick this deal is not happening for a lot of reasons.

[ChuckDurn]

I don't think Philly would trade Simmons and take on so much bad salary for three protected picks and a swap. I don't know that that package would get cap space.

Sacramento isn't trading Hield and a first for a couple of guards and an okay SF prospect. Their strength is their young back court. If Hield is so bad that SAC does this, then he's certainly too bad to expect Philly to want him in a Simmons trade.

Minny absolutely kills it in this deal. They give up very little for a star. I agree the Wolves need a third team to get a Simmons trade off the ground, but to be honest, proposals involving them should have that third team be the clear loser of the trade. Minny needs to trick someone else into giving the real value for Simmons in exchange for the Wolves' package. This proposal really doesn't do that. What actually needs to happen in a three-team trade is that the Wolves need to trade for Fox and then add to him to get Simmons. Otherwise they probably can't get Ben while protecting KAT, Russell and Edwards.

I really just don't think the Wolves have any chance if they aren't going to come correct on a deal.

If Sacramento is willing to trade Fox, they’re almost certainly doing it to get Simmons and are cutting Minnesota out.

[ChuckDurn]

What are YOU expecting to pay for an ALL NBA player to add to ur championship core? Scrubs? There is not a lot of ALL NBA players or even all stars you can add that are on the trade block.

You are bringing up draft pick positions like they mean something in the nba. Once you are drafted, you are just like everyone else. besides ur salary. Lots of the guys, Kuminga, Moody and Wiseman may turn out. Or they may not. Just because you are a high pick, doesn't mean you will amount to anything. Talk to Anthony Bennett, Oden etc. Talk to Fred Vanvleet who was undrafted and averaged 20 last year. That's why trading proven players for unknowns are risky. You just dont know what they will be. Moody, Wiseman and Kuminga may all be all stars one day. But the odds are very very against them.

Wiseman showed flashes last year but not much after that. Maybe getting minutes will help that. Who knows. Moody and Kuminga are draft picks from this year. They may turn out or they wont. Only time will tell.

That's the risk reward. GS needs stars now before Curry retires to help win chips. There is only so many guys that could help that are all star or all nba that fits what Kerr wants to do. Siakam is at the top of that list. For that, u pay a premium. Pretty simple.

You are also getting Dragic who averaged 14/4/3 in 26 minutes last year. He is no slouch. Went to the finals 2 years ago.

Let me turn the question around on you: what SHOULD a team trade in order to acquire a one-time all-NBA player, who wasn’t all-NBA in the most recent year, is coming off a serious injury that will cause him to miss the start of the one season when you’re absolutely going “all-in” to win, and creates a positional clash (with Draymond) and positional gap (at SF if Wiggins is traded), which inherently hampers you during that all-in year?

And sure, Dragic is fine, but he’s almost assuredly a 1-year rental, so the team damn well better win it all that year, despite being completely dependent on 2 guys coming off major injuries (Siakam and Klay).

Your problem in debating this with me is that I don’t think Siakam is a good fit for the Warriors at anything close to a fair value for him - and by that, I mean what OTHER teams, in other situations and rosters, might pay for him.

But I’d encourage you to find a single Warriors fan who would agree to the trade you proposed for us, which is:
Siakam (injured) + Dragic (expiring contract) + Gillespie (12th man)
For
Wiggins + Wiseman + Kuminga + Moody + a future #1 pick

When you find a Warriors fan - a legitimate Warriors fan - who would take that deal, send them my way.

Another, I hope legitimate, warrior fan here.

I agree that siakam is worth that on the market.

As mentioned, to GSW he simply is not.

There’s literally hundreds of pages between the T&T board, GSW and TOR boards on this scenario.

Basically TOR values Siakam like it’s 2019. GSW doesn’t want another PF at that price.

I’d suggest reading up on it. You’ll find quick this deal is not happening for a lot of reasons.

I’m pretty sure you’re saying that as a Warriors fan, you wouldn’t do that deal, right?

[Helsbyte]

It is going to come down to whether Philly can get Brogdon or Fox. Brogdon is probably the better piece that Philly needs. Fox has a higher upside.

[Sportfan73]

It is going to come down to whether Philly can get Brogdon or Fox. Brogdon is probably the better piece that Philly needs. Fox has a higher upside.

I think Morey goes Fox tbh. Starting to seem more and more likely to me

[DaFan334]

What would the Nuggets have to give up for Simmons? Would Gordon, Morris and Bol and a pick or two for Simmons and Thybulle work? Its not the huge return the Sixers probably want, but they get players that can contribute now and keep the team near the top of the conference.

I'm not sold the Nugs would have any interest, but Simmons seems like a better version of Gordon who could fit the same way as Gordon did with Murray, Barton, MPJ and Jokic but who was better playmaking skills.

Value is going to be the question, but Philly could be similar or a better team after this deal IMO. Denver takes on a bit of salary and luxury tax, but the results might be worth it.

[moss_is_1]

Would really depend on the 1st protections for me, I'd really hate to give up McDaniels and 2 1sts. I also don't want to trade for Simmons unless we are trading Russell.