Phi/LAC: My monthly Lance for Landry+

[HartfordWhalers]

Only 1 try left after this and before the trade deadline passes. Since I first tried before the season, Wroten and the Denver 2016 2nd are gone. But Canaan is still available!

LAC out: Lance, (Wilcox?)
LAC in: Landry, Canaan,

Phi out: Landry, Canaan
Phi in: Lance, Wilcox

(Wilcox was thrown in assuming LAC wants to dump him, if they would rather keep him and drop Ayres at the end of his 10 day contract, that works for me better)

Why?

First let me get out of the way that I don't see LAC having anything but the full MLE in cap room next year. Chris Paul
DeAndre Jordan, Blake Griffin, Paul Pierce, Austin Rivers, C.J. Wilcox, Wesley Johnson, Cole Aldrich, and the minimum cap holds and they don't. Their draft pick makes it even less, so you need to be doing some sort of crazy salary dumps to get back to 8m versus the 5m of the MLE.

Okay, now that that is done, LAC does this because their options on dumping Lance are pretty limited. He's kinda awful and expensive. So, to get anyone even vaguely useful they need to take on a ton of money this year, or add money next year. But getting someone for just next year isn't bad, as LAC's depth is awful and as long as they can help at all, it is better to have Player from Lance trade + MLE than just MLE.

So, Landry can help somewhat with depth and Canaan provides some extra outside shooting and is a restricted free agent, giving LAC another option for depth next year. Also, dropping 2.7m (or 1.5m without Wilcox) in salary has substantial tax savings.

For Philly, they use Canaan and taking on money to get out of Landry's next year and have the space for someone younger next offseason.

[the_process]

Just for the roster spot next year the Sixers have to do this. Lance has a TO next year, right? If the Sixers waive Lance immediately does his team option kick in, or do they have to wait and decline the option at the end of the season? Only asking because I'm not sure I want Lance in the locker room with all the kids in Philly.

[HartfordWhalers]

Just for the roster spot next year the Sixers have to do this. Lance has a TO next year, right? If the Sixers waive Lance immediately does his team option kick in, or do they have to wait and decline the option at the end of the season? Only asking because I'm not sure I want Lance in the locker room with all the kids in Philly.

You can waive the team option and cut someone early. A team option is an opt in requiring you to do something for it to happen.

And yeah, I would cut Lance immediately (and re-sign Wood).

[76thBearCub]

Just for the roster spot next year the Sixers have to do this. Lance has a TO next year, right? If the Sixers waive Lance immediately does his team option kick in, or do they have to wait and decline the option at the end of the season? Only asking because I'm not sure I want Lance in the locker room with all the kids in Philly.

You can waive the team option and cut someone early. A team option is an opt in requiring you to do something for it to happen.

And yeah, I would cut Lance immediately (and re-sign Wood).

I know I am off topic, but whats with the C's thing HW?

[HartfordWhalers]

Just for the roster spot next year the Sixers have to do this. Lance has a TO next year, right? If the Sixers waive Lance immediately does his team option kick in, or do they have to wait and decline the option at the end of the season? Only asking because I'm not sure I want Lance in the locker room with all the kids in Philly.

You can waive the team option and cut someone early. A team option is an opt in requiring you to do something for it to happen.

And yeah, I would cut Lance immediately (and re-sign Wood).

I know I am off topic, but whats with the C's thing HW?

I was traded.

[HartfordWhalers]

Just for the roster spot next year the Sixers have to do this. Lance has a TO next year, right? If the Sixers waive Lance immediately does his team option kick in, or do they have to wait and decline the option at the end of the season? Only asking because I'm not sure I want Lance in the locker room with all the kids in Philly.

You can waive the team option and cut someone early. A team option is an opt in requiring you to do something for it to happen.

And yeah, I would cut Lance immediately (and re-sign Wood).

I know I am off topic, but whats with the C's thing HW?

I was traded.

[loserX]

I've always liked Landry but he's not the kind of guy you pay $6.5M for now. He's the kind of guy you wait to get bought out and sign him for the veteran minimum.

I totally agree with the concepts behind your reasoning, I think it does make sense to trade Lance for a useful player or two. (I picked Corey Brewer in another trade to help solve their SF problem but understandably Clippers fans didn't think that was any solution either.) But I don't think LAC gets any here.

[76thBearCub]

You can waive the team option and cut someone early. A team option is an opt in requiring you to do something for it to happen.

And yeah, I would cut Lance immediately (and re-sign Wood).

I know I am off topic, but whats with the C's thing HW?

I was traded.

You better have got us a pretty damn good return. I'd rank you first team all 6ers forum if i had a vote.

And don't expect a warm reception when you come back either.

[blind prophet]

I like it for the 76ers, I'd have to see the specific tax savings for the Clippers though, it would have to be considerable. Also if I'm the Clippers and cap room is a concern I'd like to be able to make moves in the off season without the guarantee of Landry.

[DeathLineup]

Philadelphia has been dumpster fire this season. Why not trade for Stephenson? Would be a great way to ensure they have the worst record in the league. Worst record, better chance at Simmons.

[HartfordWhalers]

Lots of Clipper fan hating on Martin for Lance in my other thread, but nothing happening here.

I don't see much (any) of a market for Lance, so the idea of getting a guy that bolsters a horrific bench makes sense to me, so bumping this for feedback on filling that bench void and bolstering this way.

[og15]

Similar to the Martin one, unless it is a player the Clippers plan on adding to their future rotation and think will get solid minutes, the team is better off keeping Lance, declining his option and using what little cap space they will end up having to get players they actually want; that is as opposed to trading for a guy that has more years on his contract.

[Mamba4Goat]

You can waive the team option and cut someone early. A team option is an opt in requiring you to do something for it to happen.

And yeah, I would cut Lance immediately (and re-sign Wood).

I know I am off topic, but whats with the C's thing HW?

I was traded.

I've also been curious about this. Hopping on the bandwagon??

[HartfordWhalers]

Similar to the Martin one, unless it is a player the Clippers plan on adding to their future rotation and think will get solid minutes, the team is better off keeping Lance, declining his option and using what little cap space they will end up having to get players they actually want; that is as opposed to trading for a guy that has more years on his contract.

Can you explain to me how they get cap space (more than the MLE)? I see them with if that the MLE, so its in essence free cap space as I explained in both OP's.

[QRich3]

Lots of Clipper fan hating on Martin for Lance in my other thread, but nothing happening here.

I don't see much (any) of a market for Lance, so the idea of getting a guy that bolsters a horrific bench makes sense to me, so bumping this for feedback on filling that bench void and bolstering this way.

Similar to the Martin trade, you're offering a scoring combo guard here, and having too many of those getting minutes off the bench is already the Clippers biggest problem. Furthermore, Canaan is not a veteran so I'm pretty sure he'd get as much burn as Wilcox does here.

I agree Lance has close to zero value as a player right now, but his contract does have some value since it can be traded on draft day and become an expiring on June 30th, and there's none of those close to $9M around the league. It can be traded around that time, with or without a pick attached, for a more valuable guy than Landry that some team is trying to dump before FA. Even if they don't think they can get anything worthwhile on draft day, they can dump him to Portland by the deadline and save over $15M in salary/tax penalties, rather than paying a whole lot of money for two guys who won't crack the rotation.

If you give me Jerami Grant here, or we work something around Covington and a pick, you can defo dump Landry for Lance, but scoring guards like Martin and Canaan have little value for what the Clippers are trying to do.

Re: capspace, if they decline Lance's option and all of Austin, Cole and Wesley opt out, Clippers are projected to have a payroll of about about $78M with 7 players on the roster, so $82M with the capholds. That's about $7.5M in projected capspace plus the room exception, and they can open about $5M more if Pierce retires and they dump Wilcox and Dawson.

[HartfordWhalers]

Lots of Clipper fan hating on Martin for Lance in my other thread, but nothing happening here.

I don't see much (any) of a market for Lance, so the idea of getting a guy that bolsters a horrific bench makes sense to me, so bumping this for feedback on filling that bench void and bolstering this way.

Similar to the Martin trade, you're offering a scoring combo guard here, and having too many of those getting minutes off the bench is already the Clippers biggest problem. Furthermore, Canaan is not a veteran so I'm pretty sure he'd get as much burn as Wilcox does here.

I agree Lance has close to zero value as a player right now, but his contract does have some value since it can be traded on draft day and become an expiring on June 30th, and there's none of those close to $9M around the league. It can be traded around that time, with or without a pick attached, for a more valuable guy than Landry that some team is trying to dump before FA. Even if they don't think they can get anything worthwhile on draft day, they can dump him to Portland by the deadline and save over $15M in salary/tax penalties, rather than paying a whole lot of money for two guys who won't crack the rotation.

If you give me Jerami Grant here, or we work something around Covington and a pick, you can defo dump Landry for Lance, but scoring guards like Martin and Canaan have little value for what the Clippers are trying to do.

Re: capspace, if they decline Lance's option and all of Austin, Cole and Wesley opt out, Clippers are projected to have a payroll of about about $78M with 7 players on the roster, so $82M with the capholds. That's about $7.5M in projected capspace plus the room exception, and they can open about $5M more if Pierce retires and they dump Wilcox and Dawson.

LAC cannot trade Lance at draft day unless the team picks up his option and makes him a 9m (bad) contract for next season. In which case he is pretty clearly negative value. So there is no way his negative value contract gains value based upon draft day tradability.

As for a dump on Portland, so far Portland hasn't done deals like the Josh Smith deal and taken on a contract with money attached. While there is definitely a benefit to Portland of doing it, Portland might be expecting a lot to save LAC that money.

In terms of the cap space, you only get to 7m if you assume that 1) Johnson and Aldrich opt out and 2) there is 0 cap hold for LAC's first round pick (pick is dumped or drafts someone under foreign contract and they sign a waiver they will not come over). Considering how much Aldrich has played, I wouldn't really count on that assumption, so you are already at the MLE in essence.

[QRich3]

LAC cannot trade Lance at draft day unless the team picks up his option and makes him a 9m (bad) contract for next season. In which case he is pretty clearly negative value. So there is no way his negative value contract gains value based upon draft day tradability.

Why not? everywhere I've read says team options are to be exercised/declined before the start of the next season on July 1st, as opposed to unguaranteed contracts which have an agreed date. And June 30th is when most team options have been declined in the previous years. Draft day is a week before the start of the season, so unless I'm missing a more restricting clause, it'd be tradeable

As for a dump on Portland, so far Portland hasn't done deals like the Josh Smith deal and taken on a contract with money attached. While there is definitely a benefit to Portland of doing it, Portland might be expecting a lot to save LAC that money.

Well, they might or they might not, I think it's beneficial for Portland to save money reaching the floor and so they could be paying instead of asking for assets. But in any case it's probably better for the Clippers to just let Lance expire than to eat next year of Landry's contract in exchange for a roster spot in Canaan who's likely not gonna get into the rotation. They just paid the Hornets to not have the extra years of Hawes contract, no sense in getting another guy with a similar contract than Hawes for the expiring they got for him.

In terms of the cap space, you only get to 7m if you assume that 1) Johnson and Aldrich opt out and 2) there is 0 cap hold for LAC's first round pick (pick is dumped or drafts someone under foreign contract and they sign a waiver they will not come over). Considering how much Aldrich has played, I wouldn't really count on that assumption, so you are already at the MLE in essence.

Johnson and Aldrich will surely get better contracts than the veteran minimum they're making here. They're both having a decent year, and there's more teams with capspace ready to spend than useful players in the next FA. Depending on who's available and wants to come here, the Clippers might decide it's better to renounce/trade the 25th pick's rights and get a FA than keeping the pick and having the MLE. Say, if they talk to Loul Deng and he agrees to come here for a 4 year $32M contract, they might prefer that than keeping the rights to Taurean Prince or whoever.

[HartfordWhalers]

LAC cannot trade Lance at draft day unless the team picks up his option and makes him a 9m (bad) contract for next season. In which case he is pretty clearly negative value. So there is no way his negative value contract gains value based upon draft day tradability.

Why not? everywhere I've read says team options are to be exercised/declined before the start of the next season on July 1st, as opposed to unguaranteed contracts which have an agreed date. And June 30th is when most team options have been declined in the previous years. Draft day is a week before the start of the season, so unless I'm missing a more restricting clause, it'd be tradeable

The CBA doesn't allow a player who may not be under contract the next season traded after the regular season ends. So, for Lance to be tradable, LAC would need to accept his team option.

As for the rest, Aldrich has played 259 minutes on the entire season. I think you are really really overselling him, and relying on some pretty dodgy assumptions to get what basically amounts to 7m versus 5.5m, and then further assuming a player unlikely to be available for 7m is making that 7m so much more attractive than the MLE. I think all your assumptions are flawed.

[QRich3]

The CBA doesn't allow a player who may not be under contract the next season traded after the regular season ends. So, for Lance to be tradable, LAC would need to accept his team option.

As for the rest, Aldrich has played 259 minutes on the entire season. I think you are really really overselling him, and relying on some pretty dodgy assumptions to get what basically amounts to 7m versus 5.5m, and then further assuming a player unlikely to be available for 7m is making that 7m so much more attractive than the MLE. I think all your assumptions are flawed.

Oh duh, my bad. I actually knew that and still have been planning for a draft day trade, thanks for clarifying. It's trade deadline or nothing then, which still doesn't make the Canaan trade any more likely.

Aldrich is having a very good season and showing himself to be a very capable back up C for any good team. He even did great as a starter in the couple games Jordan was out. He's one of the few feel-good stories coming from this team, he just didn't get into the rotation until Smith got out of it. You getting on basketball reference and watching the number of minutes he's played is not really a valid assessment of what kind of contract he's getting next year. I'd rather he opts in to be honest. And I think you're confusing "flawed" and "dodgy" with likely. You can have an opinion on what's likely to happen, but everything I said is perfectly feasible. I'm not saying they're likely to have more than the MLE, you asked how could they have more and I explained to you a possible scenario.

[og15]

Similar to the Martin one, unless it is a player the Clippers plan on adding to their future rotation and think will get solid minutes, the team is better off keeping Lance, declining his option and using what little cap space they will end up having to get players they actually want; that is as opposed to trading for a guy that has more years on his contract.

Can you explain to me how they get cap space (more than the MLE)? I see them with if that the MLE, so its in essence free cap space as I explained in both OP's.

I believe not picking up Lance's option and renouncing Jamal, etc gives about $8 million in space with, but that excludes draft picks, so maybe it's not so great.

We still have to ask the question of will Landry will minutes on this team? If not, then what's the point of having him? If he was going to actually get minutes, I don't dislike the guy at all, and don't mind it, but if not then it doesn't do anything for the Clippers. Doc is currently in love with small ball, so I don't know.

The Kevin Martin one was worse though because of the miserable idea of Crawford / Martin / Pierce all playing on the court together, that's basically planning to tank defense, and either Doc will play that lineup or Martin will not play, because Austin is not being benched. Doc probably wouldn't get a player whose presence will make people have more of a question of why Austin is playing over that guy.

Landry could at least work as a PF next to Aldrich, but Doc has not seemed to want to play two bigs off the bench, soo....