RealGM

Let me start by saying this whole off-season is about Al Horford. As loserX points out, there are going to be a bunch of teams making him a top priority this summer. But I believe him when he says he loves it in Atlanta and at his age and with his injury history I think by far the most likely scenario is him taking the 5 year max to stay with the Hawks. So this plan is based around that assumption. No disrespect to loserX or anyone else who disagrees, but that's how I see it and so that's at the root of this plan.

Front Office/Coaching: No major changes. I'd certainly look around to see about adding the right guy to the front office and we need a new lead assistant, but I'm sure Coach Bud has someone in mind already.

Trades:

Tiago Splitter, Tim Hardaway Jr for Taj Gibson, Tony Snell,

Bulls do this to gain a scoring wing as they re-shape their team and move out a stop-gap PF for a stop-gap center better balancing their lineup. Hawks gain an upgraded 3rd big and get the latest Coach Bud wing reclamation project. He turned DMC into a player, Bazemore into a player, and Snell has the shooting stroke and size to be the latest guy he turns into a valuable 3&D player.

Jeff Teague, #54 for Darren Collison, Omri Casspi

Reports are the Kings aren't too high on bringing Rondo back but they still need an upgrade at PG. Here they get one merely at the cost of Casspi. Hawks turn the job over to Schroder as planned, but protect themselves with one of the best backups in the league, Collison and add a nice bench shooter.

Draft: With pick #21 grab a point guard. Tyler Ulis is the dream, but Demetrious Jackson or Wade Baldwin are options if he's gone. With their remaining pick #44 take a project big man, ideally a foreign guy we can stash.

Free Agency:

Mike Scott's contract is not picked up. Lamar Patterson is let go. Factoring in the cap hold for Al Horford the Hawks have around $22M to spend. And a starting wing is the top priority here. And Chandler Parsons is going to be first on the list. And we have a lot to sell him on--a good team in an easier conference, a fun offense to play in, and the chance to be a primary on-ball player here. And Parsons has been one of the best on-ball PNR players in the entire league the past couple of seasons, he moves the ball well and is a terrific shooter. He doesn't defend as well as you would like, but Coach Bud can coach him up a bit. Luol Deng and Harrison Barnes would be backup plans as would bringing back Bazemore, but we are looking to transform the team a bit. Bring back Mike Muscala using his Bird's Rights on a reasonable deal. Max out Al Horford for 5 years. Give Brandon Rush the Room exception. And a min contract to undrafted FA Dorian Finney-Smith


Al Horford/Taj Gibson/Mike Muscala/Walter Tavares
Paul Milsap/Omri Casspi/
Chandler Parsons/Tony Snell/Finney-Smith
Thabo Sefalosha/Kyle Korver/Brandon Rush
Dennis Schroder/Darren Collison/Tyler Ulis

Now right away it should jump out that this team is very small in terms of not really having a true center. This might be something the team looks to add mid-season if it becomes necessary, but this team will still be very tough defensively while having skilled options and shooters up and down the lineup. I put Thabo in the starting lineup just for balance, but this could still be Korver, or this eventually could be Snell if as I suspect Coach Bud gets something out of him. Schroder gets the chance to run the team, but we've protected ourselves in the short-term with Collison and long-term with Ulis. Parsons gives the offense a dimension its been lacking and Gibson and Casspi provide quality veteran depth and a much upgraded big man rotation behind the starters.

Really don't like that Teague trade for Atlanta. I think Teague is worth significantly more than DC and Casspi isn't much incentive.
I agree about offering Al the 5 year max and hoping he takes it. I'm not sure you could convince Parsons to join the team though. He seems to like Dallas, no?

BTW. does Atlanta make Bazemore an offer in this scenario?
Curious how high you think they go.

Big off-season for Atlanta in general. It will be interesting.

Tiago Splitter, Tim Hardaway Jr for Taj Gibson, Tony Snell,

The Bulls say no to this. Gasol is departing and Gibson is really liked too much to be dumped randomly.

Trader_Joe wrote:Really don't like that Teague trade for Atlanta. I think Teague is worth significantly more than DC and Casspi isn't much incentive.
I agree about offering Al the 5 year max and hoping he takes it. I'm not sure you could convince Parsons to join the team though. He seems to like Dallas, no?

BTW. does Atlanta make Bazemore an offer in this scenario?
Curious how high you think they go.

Big off-season for Atlanta in general. It will be interesting.

grain of salt. I live in atlanta, fan word is they are considering letting Horford walk, spend the money needed on Bazemore and try for Dwight.

General feeling though is, Bud will just bring everyone back and hope for the best.

tiderulz wrote:

Trader_Joe wrote:Really don't like that Teague trade for Atlanta. I think Teague is worth significantly more than DC and Casspi isn't much incentive.
I agree about offering Al the 5 year max and hoping he takes it. I'm not sure you could convince Parsons to join the team though. He seems to like Dallas, no?

BTW. does Atlanta make Bazemore an offer in this scenario?
Curious how high you think they go.

Big off-season for Atlanta in general. It will be interesting.

grain of salt. I live in atlanta, fan word is they are considering letting Horford walk, spend the money needed on Bazemore and try for Dwight.

General feeling though is, Bud will just bring everyone back and hope for the best.

Interesting... makes some sense given his ties to the area. I'd rather have Al though.

tiderulz wrote:

Trader_Joe wrote:Really don't like that Teague trade for Atlanta. I think Teague is worth significantly more than DC and Casspi isn't much incentive.
I agree about offering Al the 5 year max and hoping he takes it. I'm not sure you could convince Parsons to join the team though. He seems to like Dallas, no?

BTW. does Atlanta make Bazemore an offer in this scenario?
Curious how high you think they go.

Big off-season for Atlanta in general. It will be interesting.

grain of salt. I live in atlanta, fan word is they are considering letting Horford walk, spend the money needed on Bazemore and try for Dwight.

General feeling though is, Bud will just bring everyone back and hope for the best.

I really hope the Hawks sign Dwight so my Bucks cannot.

I'm of the mindset that if we bring back Al it should only be so that we don't lose him for nothing and we can trade him later on for better value since he will be locked into a fresh deal. However, I don't see Bud doing him like that. He's the longest tenured Hawk and has been with us for 9? straight years.

Any who,

I don't see Parsons coming here I think he really likes Dallas and I see a new deal getting done there. Ulis makes some sense at #21 as do a lot of guys. Prince, Stone, Sabonis, Ulis, all would be good picks here.

After Bud and Wes investing the #15 pick on THJ just last year, it's hard to see them giving up on him so soon.

I agree that Teague's value is a real question mark at this point but surely it is higher than this?

tiderulz wrote:

Trader_Joe wrote:Really don't like that Teague trade for Atlanta. I think Teague is worth significantly more than DC and Casspi isn't much incentive.
I agree about offering Al the 5 year max and hoping he takes it. I'm not sure you could convince Parsons to join the team though. He seems to like Dallas, no?

BTW. does Atlanta make Bazemore an offer in this scenario?
Curious how high you think they go.

Big off-season for Atlanta in general. It will be interesting.

grain of salt. I live in atlanta, fan word is they are considering letting Horford walk, spend the money needed on Bazemore and try for Dwight.

General feeling though is, Bud will just bring everyone back and hope for the best.

Fans are split on both players, don't wanna pay Al a max and D12 and his baggage.
Here's something wirth considering that doesn't make financial sense signing D12 - Al's caphold is $18 million, his max is $27 mil, Dwight's max is $32 mil. They'll need full capspace to sign both D12 and Baze. Unless D12 is taking a steep discount I don't believe the letting Horford walk and signing Baze and D12. Hawks will have to gut the team to clear capspace to sign both outright.

Teague is worth more that Collison and Casspi but you also have Hawks throwing in a 2nd too?

I can see why Atlanta would not want to do that trade with Sac, but honestly I wouldn't consider it for the Kings. Teague is certainly a good player and likely better than Collison but I don't think the difference is Casspi. Also Jason Ham reported that Collison and Casspi are two of the guys that absolutely love Sacramento and feel connected to the team and city. I think Casspi really came on last year and solidified himself as a solid 3 point shooting and hustle wing, I wouldn't give him up for that upgrade. These guys were 2 of our best 5 players last year. McLemore and Darren I would consider but again I really like Collison and what he has been able to do in Sacramento.

Ill sound like a homer but what the heck.

Collison - 14ppg/4.3apg/49% fg /40% 3pt/59% TS/16 per/19% Usage/5.2 WS

Teague - 16ppg/6apg/44% fg/40% 3pt/55% TS/18 Per/ 27% Usage/5.9 WS

I think if Collison had a 27% usage instead of 19% it is not unrealistic to think he could put up better numbers than Teague on better shooting. They are pretty much the same age and both have 1 year left on their contracts but Teague will likely demand double the money Collison wants. So again Ill probably sound like a homer but this is an easy no for me.

It's clear I like Casspi more than most everyone else(maybe not Kings fans tho). ...

RipPizzaGuy wrote:I can see why Atlanta would not want to do that trade with Sac, but honestly I wouldn't consider it for the Kings. Teague is certainly a good player and likely better than Collison but I don't think the difference is Casspi. Also Jason Ham reported that Collison and Casspi are two of the guys that absolutely love Sacramento and feel connected to the team and city. I think Casspi really came on last year and solidified himself as a solid 3 point shooting and hustle wing, I wouldn't give him up for that upgrade. These guys were 2 of our best 5 players last year. McLemore and Darren I would consider but again I really like Collison and what he has been able to do in Sacramento.

Ill sound like a homer but what the heck.

Collison - 14ppg/4.3apg/49% fg /40% 3pt/59% TS/16 per/19% Usage/5.2 WS

Teague - 16ppg/6apg/44% fg/40% 3pt/55% TS/18 Per/ 27% Usage/5.9 WS

I think if Collison had a 27% usage instead of 19% it is not unrealistic to think he could put up better numbers than Teague on better shooting. They are pretty much the same age and both have 1 year left on their contracts but Teague will likely demand double the money Collison wants. So again Ill probably sound like a homer but this is an easy no for me.

If they are so similar in your opinion, why wouldn't they get similar contracts next summer?

Chicago gets crushed in that trade. Snell is better than Hardaway and that's supposed to be the value they get for downgrading from Taj to Splitter.

I'd also keep Bazzemore over Parsons.

Trader_Joe wrote:

RipPizzaGuy wrote:I can see why Atlanta would not want to do that trade with Sac, but honestly I wouldn't consider it for the Kings. Teague is certainly a good player and likely better than Collison but I don't think the difference is Casspi. Also Jason Ham reported that Collison and Casspi are two of the guys that absolutely love Sacramento and feel connected to the team and city. I think Casspi really came on last year and solidified himself as a solid 3 point shooting and hustle wing, I wouldn't give him up for that upgrade. These guys were 2 of our best 5 players last year. McLemore and Darren I would consider but again I really like Collison and what he has been able to do in Sacramento.

Ill sound like a homer but what the heck.

Collison - 14ppg/4.3apg/49% fg /40% 3pt/59% TS/16 per/19% Usage/5.2 WS

Teague - 16ppg/6apg/44% fg/40% 3pt/55% TS/18 Per/ 27% Usage/5.9 WS

I think if Collison had a 27% usage instead of 19% it is not unrealistic to think he could put up better numbers than Teague on better shooting. They are pretty much the same age and both have 1 year left on their contracts but Teague will likely demand double the money Collison wants. So again Ill probably sound like a homer but this is an easy no for me.

If they are so similar in your opinion, why wouldn't they get similar contracts next summer?

Well it's yet to be seen really what contracts they will get. But perception is everything, and judging off realgm perception is that Collison is nothing more than a career backup while Teague is a quality starter. Also I like my chances at resigning Collison much better.

Also it's not my opinion that they are so similar, it's the stats that tell the story.

But I'll pose you a question, what is Teague significantly better at than Collison?

RipPizzaGuy wrote:

Trader_Joe wrote:

RipPizzaGuy wrote:I can see why Atlanta would not want to do that trade with Sac, but honestly I wouldn't consider it for the Kings. Teague is certainly a good player and likely better than Collison but I don't think the difference is Casspi. Also Jason Ham reported that Collison and Casspi are two of the guys that absolutely love Sacramento and feel connected to the team and city. I think Casspi really came on last year and solidified himself as a solid 3 point shooting and hustle wing, I wouldn't give him up for that upgrade. These guys were 2 of our best 5 players last year. McLemore and Darren I would consider but again I really like Collison and what he has been able to do in Sacramento.

Ill sound like a homer but what the heck.

Collison - 14ppg/4.3apg/49% fg /40% 3pt/59% TS/16 per/19% Usage/5.2 WS

Teague - 16ppg/6apg/44% fg/40% 3pt/55% TS/18 Per/ 27% Usage/5.9 WS

I think if Collison had a 27% usage instead of 19% it is not unrealistic to think he could put up better numbers than Teague on better shooting. They are pretty much the same age and both have 1 year left on their contracts but Teague will likely demand double the money Collison wants. So again Ill probably sound like a homer but this is an easy no for me.

If they are so similar in your opinion, why wouldn't they get similar contracts next summer?

Well it's yet to be seen really what contracts they will get. But perception is everything, and judging off realgm perception is that Collison is nothing more than a career backup while Teague is a quality starter. Also I like my chances at resigning Collison much better.

Also it's not my opinion that they are so similar, it's the stats that tell the story.

But I'll pose you a question, what is Teague significantly better at than Collison?

I don't think RealGM perception means much in free agency. If you think they are so similar (and you think should be viewed such), then certainly there would be GMs that view them similar, no?

Also, I think the burden of proof is on you here.. if you think RealGM and presumably real life GM's are going to give Teague a much larger paycheck, why do you think that is and why do you see things much differently than what you even expect?

if you want o chalk it up to "homerism" which you seemingly admit, that is fine, but I think you are also trying to imply your "homerism" is justified.

And yes.. we (Real GM and Real Life GMs) can all see the same stats. Why do you think you can look at them and look at the two players and see them radically different than the rest of us?

As for the question, Teague is a significantly better passer and defender.

If Horford is willing to come back, I like the addition of Parsons as a splashy move (they can't just keep bringing everyone back and hoping for better results).

I like Taj Gibson a lot but I do think it's going to be a problem not having any full-time Cs on the roster, especially given how badly the Hawks get outrebounded by bigger teams (like Cleveland!). I know Splitter isn't any great solution either but if we're going to change things up I'd like to see an upgrade at the 5, not bringing in another 4 to fill the spot.

And yeah, I think you and I see differently on Casspi (whom I like). Seems to me that Sacramento getting a recent all-star PG for two guys who aren't even full-time starters would be a dream come true. It's not like the Hawks get the benefit of longer contracts either. I'd want more value from the Kings but I'm not sure how they can do it.

RipPizzaGuy wrote:Well it's yet to be seen really what contracts they will get. But perception is everything, and judging off realgm perception is that Collison is nothing more than a career backup while Teague is a quality starter. Also I like my chances at resigning Collison much better.

Also it's not my opinion that they are so similar, it's the stats that tell the story.

But I'll pose you a question, what is Teague significantly better at than Collison?

If they are the same, why would it be so much easier to re-sign Collison?

One is a recent all-star as a starter. The other is Darren Collison. I like Collison well enough but he is not as good as Teague.

loserX wrote:If Horford is willing to come back, I like the addition of Parsons as a splashy move (they can't just keep bringing everyone back and hoping for better results).

I like Taj Gibson a lot but I do think it's going to be a problem not having any full-time Cs on the roster, especially given how badly the Hawks get outrebounded by bigger teams (like Cleveland!). I know Splitter isn't any great solution either but if we're going to change things up I'd like to see an upgrade at the 5, not bringing in another 4 to fill the spot.

And yeah, I think you and I see differently on Casspi (whom I like). Seems to me that Sacramento getting a recent all-star PG for two guys who aren't even full-time starters would be a dream come true. It's not like the Hawks get the benefit of longer contracts either. I'd want more value from the Kings but I'm not sure how they can do it.

I actually considered Splitter/Koufos as part of that deal as opposed to doing the Bulls trade and I suppose Ben Mac could represent the 3&D prospect in place of Snell.

Would Splitter/Teague/Hardaway for Koufos/Collison/McLemore/Casspi be closer in value for the Hawks? Still achieves the same goals I had for the Hawks and it potentially still works for the Kings?

Trader_Joe wrote:

RipPizzaGuy wrote:

Trader_Joe wrote:If they are so similar in your opinion, why wouldn't they get similar contracts next summer?

Well it's yet to be seen really what contracts they will get. But perception is everything, and judging off realgm perception is that Collison is nothing more than a career backup while Teague is a quality starter. Also I like my chances at resigning Collison much better.

Also it's not my opinion that they are so similar, it's the stats that tell the story.

But I'll pose you a question, what is Teague significantly better at than Collison?

I don't think RealGM perception means much in free agency. If you think they are so similar (and you think should be viewed such), then certainly there would be GMs that view them similar, no?

Also, I think the burden of proof is on you here.. if you think RealGM and presumably real life GM's are going to give Teague a much larger paycheck, why do you think that is and why do you see things much differently than what you even expect?

if you want o chalk it up to "homerism" which you seemingly admit, that is fine, but I think you are also trying to imply your "homerism" is justified.

And yes.. we (Real GM and Real Life GMs) can all see the same stats. Why do you think you can look at them and look at the two players and see them radically different than the rest of us?

As for the question, Teague is a significantly better passer and defender.

Again I have yet to see what contracts they both get next year. I'll tell you that the average fan on here thinks Collison is probably a 10mil a year player and that's his worth, where it seems popular opinion on Teague is that he's going to demand up to 20 mil per year. Will that happen we will see. But either way why give up an asset when I can wait a year and find out myself?

Also I think a team may think Collison is what he is, but that Teague in the right situation can capitalize. I don't think it's fair to say all gms, because to be honest I think most gms agree with me, you get 90% of what Teague brings in Collison for much less money. It only takes 1 GM to overpay a player and make his value such. Why did Demarre Carroll get a huge contract from the Raptors while Boston got a steal of a contract on an arguably just as good or 90% as good player in Crowder? it's not something I can give you a definitive answer on.

Because Teague has been in a winning situation for years now, Collison on the other hand has spent most of his time backing up cp3 or playing with teams as a stop gap point guard, but if we analyze the players the last 2 years without looking at overall team success it's easy to see they both have strengths.

Collison has a career average assists of 4.9 and last year as a starter averaged 5.6, Teague has averaged 5.2 over his career. I don't know about you but I don't consider .3 assists to translate to a significantly better passer.
Teague is a better defender but in no way shape or form is he a lock down defender. Also as I said Collison is the more efficient scorer in terms of fg% and true shooting.

I am not saying that Teague isn't better than Collison, I am saying that I wouldn't consider adding Casspi to that swap. Maybe we view Casspi on different levels but I think he's the kind of player ever team is dying to get, he fills a role and knocks down 3s, he hustles and doesn't complain. He is also very underpaid, so in a year that we need to go fill other spots on our roster (starting 2, stretch 4) I don't think it's a good idea to give Casspi away when there's no clear replacement on the roster and to get an equally talented replacement would likely cost us upwards of 10 million per year.

I personally don't think it's homerism and I think the stats agree with me, but as I said popular opinion would have you believe Teague is a top 15 pg where Collison is lucky to Crack top 30. I see no reason to give an asset for a marginal upgrade especially considering that Collison picked sacramento and has great chemistry with Cousins and in the year he started made Gay a much more efficient player. We brought in a ball dominant guard in Rondo with a high usage, it didn't work and I think that was pretty clear.

loserX wrote:

RipPizzaGuy wrote:Well it's yet to be seen really what contracts they will get. But perception is everything, and judging off realgm perception is that Collison is nothing more than a career backup while Teague is a quality starter. Also I like my chances at resigning Collison much better.

Also it's not my opinion that they are so similar, it's the stats that tell the story.

But I'll pose you a question, what is Teague significantly better at than Collison?

If they are the same, why would it be so much easier to re-sign Collison?

One is a recent all-star as a starter. The other is Darren Collison. I like Collison well enough but he is not as good as Teague.

Because Collison likes sacramento and has indicated he wants to be here. Teague on the other hand is a huge question mark.

I don't think they are the same, as I said Teague is an upgrade in certain areas and if it was a straight swap I would do it. Casspi imo is not a throw in. He's a very good role player on a super underpaid contract. In terms of the Kings team I see Casspi/Cousins/WCS as the keepers. Casspi has also shown he wants to be here. In an age of the NBA where having versatile wings who are able to shoot the 3 and the fact that Casspi just shot 41% on 4 three point shots per game makes his very valuable.

I'd honestly rather trade Gay than Casspi. I watch every kings game and I can tell you Casspi and cousins are very close. Casspi also has mentioned how much he loves the city of Sacramento. He hits 3s, never takes a play off, and is long. He has his faults mainly he can't dribble to save his life, but I love the kind of player he is and so to me the upgrade from Collison to Teague is not worth Casspi. I could see the argument for Mclemore and that would likely make sense, but Casspi to me is an easy no.

I don't get this notion that I said they are the same? I said that Collison has some strengths, he's a more efficient scorer, faster, chemistry. And Teague has some strengths better defender, better passer. I understand that Collison is living off a reputation that he cannot succeed as a starter and that's fair he failed in Dallas and Indiana, but I'm a firm believer that with role players the system and fit matters a ton and so far he's proven to be an excellent fit with our guys. Continuity is important, Collison has had 2 years to work with Cousins, why trade him for Teague who has 1 year left on his contract and if he can't click with Cousins then he walks no question? We lose 2 assets for nothing. I don't see the value.

Also I'm just not the biggest Teague fan, he was underwhelming in the playoffs and has pretty much been passed up for Schroder even at his young age.

If the upgrade was for Conley then obviously it's a no brainer but I think I have a much higher opinion of Casspi than you, and a much lower opinion of Teague. And a former all star appearance in the east doesn't change my mind. He doesn't sniff the Allstar game in the west with the talent we have at point guard. And realistically his all star appearance had more to do with his team being ridiculously successful then him being an amazing individual performer like Wall or Irving.