Nets offseason in review (HW/Slava/bondom34/Trader_Joe/cl2117)

[Trader_Joe]

I have a feeling this will be one of the quieter, less controversial threads...as no one care about the Nets and we have no real rivals other than maybe NY (though they want to be bad for a high pick) and Boston since they have our pick.

Funny all of us said 28 wins, other than HW with 27 (I think... the 57 losses confuses me)

I agree... especially since all 3 of you pretty much hit the nail on the head across the board:

-Lopez trade stings sentimentally and he was our clear best player but it was a win value wise and time to move on from lopez based on the teams timeline and his contract status.

-Carroll was a smart move, and a win

-no one really likes the crabbe deal but its not bad enough to really get all that upset about plus we cant be sure what crabbe is before playing at least 1/2 a season here

-Allen seemed like good value/fit for his draft position

-Free agency was basically non exsistent

-26-30 wins seems like the range... too little starting calibur talent and focus on development

Also, I think the Nets will have plenty of cap flexibility next summer. About $5m in cap still and then Booker, Kilpatrick, Harris, Acy, Dinwiddie are free agents, and Lin likely opts out.

here is the nets cap situation this/next year... id expand but too many variable once you get into 19-20.



i have an excel sheet that auto updates if you want it for the nets.... but basically 18M if lin opts in, 31M if he opts out.

Goodwin was waived don't forget. He can come off.

[Prokorov]

Russell - Lopez trade fantastic and the following Crabbe trade was a complete **** up.

They first saw that their cap space can gain them assets and then decided to waste it in the subsequent trade.

What salary dumps have happened since then? Or what ones do you expect?
Seems like most the good ones have happened for this year. But, they still have $5m now, plus the 150% rule in trade if they go that route and they have plenty of expiring players. Next summer they should have $30m if Lin opts out. They also don't want a team of just dumps. Mozgov and Carroll is plenty They do have 3 picks in the next draft (two high seconds most likely and the Toronto first), then they have have their pick back. They are not completely void and desperate for assets.

Devil's advocate:

-what if Lin doesnt opt out (18M in cap then)

-no salary dumps have happened, but lets not forget that all 3 of our trades kind of came out of nowhere and when these opportinuties present themselves you want the space

-while we have 18-30M in cap room, it may be smart to extend russell or RHJ next year to avoid them making more money as RFAs. i can see a secnario where Lin opts in and we offer russell bazemore money on an extension to avoid someone giving him 25M per as an RFA

[TheBrooklynKidd]

The Nets are gonna be a run and gun team that shoots a ton of 3s and there are gonna be nights where they're hot from 3 point range and surprise better teams. I'm also very high on the Crabbe signing, he shot close to 45% from 3 last year and I could see him taking close to 7 a game on the Nets. I don't see any reason why he can't become as good as JJ Reddick if not better. 12 mill is exactly what he should be earning IMO.

What makes Crabbe a good bet to be JJ Reddick instead of say Anthony Morrow? Few players can do what reddick does (take 6 attempts a game, with most of that volume coming off screens/on the move) and make 43-48% of those threes.

Reddick and Korver arent just catch an shoot guys, they take and make tons off shots on the move, without their feet set, and off screens. Crabbe can do some of that, but his percentages are lower outside of stand still catch an shoot... which is no knock, few guys can do what korver/reddick do AND maintain mid to high 40's percentage from deep.

I'm not sure crabbe can double his volume, take more shots on the ball, more threes on the move, and sitll shoot in the 40% or better range from three. as is he was at 36% and 39% the prior two years from three.

Crabbe is an outstanding knock down shooter from three, but i just dont see what about his game or trajectory says Reddick and not Morrow

Well he's larger, more athletic and overall better than Reddick was at this point in his career. Also I trust Marks judgement. They have a systematic valuation of players, this wasn't the Knicks giving Joakim Noah 18 mil. Marks decided that Crabbe was worth 18 mill, then the contract was matched, then after a season Marks decided that Crabbe was still worth that money and tried to acquire him again. That's true commitment.

I don't see any reason why he would become Morrow. Morrow is truly a spot up shooter and nothing else, Crabbe is a lot more than that. Idk why you can't see that and continue with these disrespectful comparisons to scrubs like Joe Harris.

[cl2117]

I like these. They're like a tour around the league.

Key Losses:
Brook Lopez is certainly a big loss. I've had some heated discussions already this off-season as to how much of a loss he really is, but in my opinion it's huge. I understand the complaints about his defense, but I think his offensive prowess and impact more than made up for it. He was regularly the only reason they looked like an NBA team and often times when other guys on the Nets had bright stretches it was with Lopez on the court attracting attention. It'll be interesting to see just how much of a net positive he was when Mozgov steps in to replace him.

Losses:
Nothing of consequence outside of Lopez.

Draft:
Really like how they handled the draft. I'll get into the trade in the section below, but their ability to hold onto 22 and only send back 27 was outstanding. Then picking Allen at 22, who I thought was going to be gone in the teens, is really good value and fit in the wake of Lopez's departure.

Trades:
I give them a big fat A for the Lopez & 27 for Russell and eating Mozgov's deal. The major thing holding back this team's rebuild was their inability to get high level talent via the draft thanks to the Billy King trade. It not only limited their rebuild, but also really made it an unappealing destination for larger name free agents since you knew they couldn't make trades or even draft marquee talent.

Turning Lopez's expiring deal and the 27th pick into a former #2 pick is the perfect way to solve that problem. High level talent at bargain prices. Now eating Mozgov's deal is a tough pill to swallow, but given the timeline the Nets are working towards it's not that bad. They've got the hole at C he can fill minutes for and he's expiring in 2 years. It's all a relatively small price to pay given D'Angelo's upside.

Marks then goes back to the well for the Carroll deal. Another A from me. Carroll will actually be relatively productive for the Nets (at least compared to the scrubs they have been running out lately) and has an even shorter deal than Mozzy. I could see him trying to turn that 20s pick into another DLO now that they've basically committed to having an albatross (Mozzy) on their roster for 3 years. Might as well eat a ton of money and get paid well in assets to do it.

The above is in part why I'm very torn on the Crabbe deal. I thought they dodged a bullet last year when their offer got matched. They've gone right back and picked him up again, which I don't really mind given what I just said about eating money while Mozgov is on the books, but then again they're not getting anything to take on Crabbe's money. Sure he's a solid SG, but I think overpaid and I also think he doesn't fit well with BKN's other assets (would've prefer to see them spend the money on the frontcourt).

If they think that Crabbe could be flipped down the line then I think it makes a ton more sense (same for the Carroll deal), but I question what kind of return they'd realistically get (at least compared to the salary they'll be paying him in the meantime).

Still though I think they definitely came out ahead after all the trades. Great job by the front office to creatively add talent and assets.

Free Agency:
Nothing to see here. Love the aggressiveness of going after Otto Porter. They'll eventually get a guy who doesn't get matched.

Current Depth Chart: (taken from bbinsiders)
I would start Crabbe and play Russell as 2nd unit PG and let him swing to SG when paired with Lin later in the game.

Needs:
More Talent
The 2019 draft
Health/Redemption

They've done well to start digging themselves out of the talent hole they inherited, however it is only a start. They need to continue to find creative ways to add assets despite not having much to work with.

In that vein they need to actually make their own selection in the 2019 draft. It's just been an impossible situation with them having no picks to work with to get talent for now or the future. Getting past the Billy King debacle will be a huge fresh start for them.

On the way to that draft they need to continue to sell of the vets they have (Lin, Crabbe, Carroll) and be creative in adding assets. They're still well behind the 8 ball compared to other rebuilding squads and now that they've got space tied up in Mozgov, I think they need to lean into that and try to acquire as many assets with cap space and vets as possible so they build up their chest again. To do that they'll need health in the case of Lin and a return to contract year form for the other two.

Additional Thoughts:

Love the off-season for the Nets. I want to root for them, but can't until 2019. I think this off-season helps me do both. I don't think they've improved drastically having lost Lopez and replaced him with nothing of note. The improvements they'll get from the backcourt/wing additions won't outweigh what they lost. That being said they'll be in a good spot after next summer, so I look forward to finally getting to root for them.

Projected Win/Loss: 26-56

I think they mirror last year's Lakers. I expect an uptick, in large part because they just can't be that bad again, but also because of the decreased competition in the East and the vets they've added. Plus if you assume a bit better health all around. That being said I think they're still a bottom 3-5 team.

Off-Season Grade: A-

It's like the reverse of the Celtics. They had very little to work with going into the off-season asset wise, but they maximized it as much as they could have hoped for. I think it's a great step in the right direction. Hopefully a taste of things to come.

[nolang1]

Would be a solid A for me if they'd used their cap space on a big offer sheet for Noel before moving onto the Crabbe deal. Even if the Nets didn't want Noel for whatever reason, there'd be an extremely low chance of the Mavs not matching. Plus Portland was trying to move Crabbe at the deadline, so it's not like any other team was going to swoop in and make an offer for him if Brooklyn waited a bit longer.

[Prokorov]

Well he's larger, more athletic and overall better than Reddick was at this point in his career. Also I trust Marks judgement. They have a systematic valuation of players, this wasn't the Knicks giving Joakim Noah 18 mil. Marks decided that Crabbe was worth 18 mill, then the contract was matched, then after a season Marks decided that Crabbe was still worth that money and tried to acquire him again. That's true commitment.

I dont know that size or athleticism really matter much when you are talking about shooters/speciliists... im also not sure crabbe was better then reddick after year 4 as well... he scored more, but in more minutes, he shot better, but his percentage was gaurded by so many stand sitll catch and shoot threes...

Also, reddick came out of college as the best shooter in NCAA history and was a lottery pick... his potential and ceiling were cetainly higher then crabbe as both a player and a shooter.

Reddick also missed most of his first 2 years with injury... so he had kind of a delayed start.

I don't see any reason why he would become Morrow. Morrow is truly a spot up shooter and nothing else, Crabbe is a lot more than that. Idk why you can't see that and continue with these disrespectful comparisons to scrubs like Joe Harris.

i see no evidence of crabbe being more then a spot up shooter. he certainly does next to nothing off the dribble, at the rim, or from the FT line. and 97% of his threes were assited on.

Morrow was a better shooter then crabbe, better from three, better from mid range and scored/rebounded/assisted at the same rate as crabbe and morrow as certainly no worse on defense.

you trash joe Harris but if you compare harris last season (16-17), his 3rd year to crabbes 3rd year (15-16) they are extremely similar... and those are the numbers that marks offered that contract to crabbe based upon. i see absolutely nothing to indicate crabbes ceiling is higher then harris or that crabbe was better then harris in year three

they are both 25, the same size, and picked the same spot (31 for crabbe, 33 for harris).

either way, crabbe is certinaly alot closer to morrow/harris then he is reddick... in fact we would be fortunate if crabbe can maintain his 44% three point shooting with more volume... Morrow was 43+ percent each of his first three years then saw it dip ot the 38-40 range once he got more volume.

what makes crabbe ceiling higher then morrow? how is he better?

[Prokorov]

Not sure what the offers were, but that's what I read I think on ND.
Bojan was a rental and CMC is awful.
Why should an awful, talent/asset deprived team worry about balance now?

That first rounder has nothing to do with Portland.
Because Nets get too many perimeter players sitting on the bench getting no meaningful minute to boost their trade value and they occupy the spots which could be used to explore potential pf talents.

Portland took a guy who took a first to move..and then subsequently waived and stretched. They took a negative value player from us.

Harris and Kilpatrick...expiring scrubs.
Lin, Russell, Crabbe, LeVert the only ones that matter. 4 guys that will play 3 positions.
DMC will play 3/4.

Plenty of minutes. Plus Lin will probably be traded during the season or opts out next summer.

if kilpatrick and harris are expiring scrubs what does that make crabbe?

I'm 100% willing to conceed Crabbe can improve under Kenny, but so could Harris/Kilpatrick.

I just dont see what makes crabbe so much better or have a much higher ceiling then those 2 guys. outside of efficient shooting im not sure what the huge upside is with crabbe.

Harris year 3 and Crabbes year 3 are comporable. same draft stock and age... i think Hartfords Morrow Comparison is spot on.

[Trader_Joe]

That first rounder has nothing to do with Portland.
Because Nets get too many perimeter players sitting on the bench getting no meaningful minute to boost their trade value and they occupy the spots which could be used to explore potential pf talents.

Portland took a guy who took a first to move..and then subsequently waived and stretched. They took a negative value player from us.

Harris and Kilpatrick...expiring scrubs.
Lin, Russell, Crabbe, LeVert the only ones that matter. 4 guys that will play 3 positions.
DMC will play 3/4.

Plenty of minutes. Plus Lin will probably be traded during the season or opts out next summer.

if kilpatrick and harris are expiring scrubs what does that make crabbe?

I'm 100% willing to conceed Crabbe can improve under Kenny, but so could Harris/Kilpatrick.

I just dont see what makes crabbe so much better or have a much higher ceiling then those 2 guys. outside of efficient shooting im not sure what the huge upside is with crabbe.

Harris year 3 and Crabbes year 3 are comporable. same draft stock and age... i think Hartfords Morrow Comparison is spot on.

Kilpatrick is awful. Selfish, no D, mid range shooter and slasher. He is what he is at his age and I've seen him long enough to feel certain there's not much hope there.

Harris has shown a bit more, but he's older, very nonathletic (too heavy as well) and very streaky. He developed some, and there might be a little left buy not much IMO.

Clearly they see something in Crabbe that we don't...yet. I think he is a better player than those two already by a fair margin and with much more upside.

[Patsfan1081]

Crabbe isn't useless but I still don't like the trade. They should have gotten more compensation back then just getting Nicholson off the books. I also dont like the possibility of Crabbe starting in front of Levert, I think Levert can be their best player and has the upside of more versatility then Crabbe.
As for their w/l, trading out your best vet for a young still developing pg doesn't add to the win column, yeah they added Crabbe and Carroll however both have some question marks attached and I don't believe Drabbe is much of an upgrade over Bogs. They'll have a even younger squad this season and young teams make mistakes.

[Trader_Joe]

Crabbe isn't useless but I still don't like the trade. They should have gotten more compensation back then just getting Nicholson off the books. I also dont like the possibility of Crabbe starting in front of Levert, I think Levert can be their best player and has the upside of more versatility then Crabbe.
As for their w/l, trading out your best vet for a young still developing pg doesn't add to the win column, yeah they added Crabbe and Carroll however both have some question marks attached and I don't believe Drabbe is much of an upgrade over Bogs. They'll have a even younger squad this season and young teams make mistakes.

The main components for more wins

1. The regression of the East (Indy, Chicago, Atlanta, while Orlando and NY don't look improved either)
2. A healthy Lin as they were a much better team with Lin playing
3. Improved 3 point team on a team that was #4 in attempts, yet #25 in percentage thank to Crabbe, Carroll, Russell and improvement from others.

[Prokorov]

Kilpatrick is awful. Selfish, no D, mid range shooter and slasher. He is what he is at his age and I've seen him long enough to feel certain there's not much hope there.

Well Crabbe play no D either (he s as bad or worse them kilpatrick in DRAPM/DRPM/DBPM/DWS). both are as bad as it gets defensively by the numbers. so i dont disagree he is an awful defender, but crabbe is no better... which leads me back to: "if kilpatrick is a scrub, what does that make crabbe?"

Kilpatrick has shot 35% from three as a net on 4.5 attempts a game... so i dont think its fair to just call him a midrange shooter. Crabbe is obviously better from deep, but kilpatrick is better creating his own offense. I'll conceed crabbe is better, but is really that much better or have that much higher a ceiling?

kilpatrick is 27, Crabbe is 25. Crabbe has more room to grow, but its not like he is 20 years old and its not like kilpatrick is 30+...

i just think these comments saying harris, kilpatrick, morrow are scrubs and propping up crabbe as so much more then them is really baseless

Harris has shown a bit more, but he's older, very nonathletic (too heavy as well) and very streaky. He developed some, and there might be a little left buy not much IMO.

Older? they are both 25. I cant imagine a few months is really a distinguishing factor here.

both were drafted the same spot, similar college careers and Harris 1 less year of NBA service. i just dont see much that indicates crabbes ceiling is much higher. I mean no one has pointed out much, mostly grasping at straws... the only real difference between the 2 is salary and Crabbe got paid based on his 3rd year 15-16 numbers that are really similar to Harris 3rd year.

yeah crabbe is more athletic, but its not like he is some real quick real athletic guy and he doesnt really use his athleticism. he isnt a leaper and isnt great creating offense

Clearly they see something in Crabbe that we don't...yet. I think he is a better player than those two already by a fair margin and with much more upside.

What makes you think he has more upside?

[antique0o0]

Not sure what the offers were, but that's what I read I think on ND.
Bojan was a rental and CMC is awful.
Why should an awful, talent/asset deprived team worry about balance now?

That first rounder has nothing to do with Portland.
Because Nets get too many perimeter players sitting on the bench getting no meaningful minute to boost their trade value and they occupy the spots which could be used to explore potential pf talents.

Portland took a guy who took a first to move..and then subsequently waived and stretched. They took a negative value player from us.

Harris and Kilpatrick...expiring scrubs.
Lin, Russell, Crabbe, LeVert the only ones that matter. 4 guys that will play 3 positions.
DMC will play 3/4.

Plenty of minutes. Plus Lin will probably be traded during the season or opts out next summer.

We took an overpaid player from Portland. And the fact they took Nicholson do help them.
IMO, Whitehead and Dinwiddie do needs minutes.

[nolang1]

Crabbe isn't useless but I still don't like the trade. They should have gotten more compensation back then just getting Nicholson off the books. I also dont like the possibility of Crabbe starting in front of Levert, I think Levert can be their best player and has the upside of more versatility then Crabbe.
As for their w/l, trading out your best vet for a young still developing pg doesn't add to the win column, yeah they added Crabbe and Carroll however both have some question marks attached and I don't believe Drabbe is much of an upgrade over Bogs. They'll have a even younger squad this season and young teams make mistakes.

The main components for more wins

1. The regression of the East (Indy, Chicago, Atlanta, while Orlando and NY don't look improved either)
2. A healthy Lin as they were a much better team with Lin playing
3. Improved 3 point team on a team that was #4 in attempts, yet #25 in percentage thank to Crabbe, Carroll, Russell and improvement from others.

Not having their own pick supersedes all of these. If the top of the draft looks as good as average Brooklyn, will be playing a lot of teams' backups over the last month or two of the season.

[Trader_Joe]

Crabbe isn't useless but I still don't like the trade. They should have gotten more compensation back then just getting Nicholson off the books. I also dont like the possibility of Crabbe starting in front of Levert, I think Levert can be their best player and has the upside of more versatility then Crabbe.
As for their w/l, trading out your best vet for a young still developing pg doesn't add to the win column, yeah they added Crabbe and Carroll however both have some question marks attached and I don't believe Drabbe is much of an upgrade over Bogs. They'll have a even younger squad this season and young teams make mistakes.

The main components for more wins

1. The regression of the East (Indy, Chicago, Atlanta, while Orlando and NY don't look improved either)
2. A healthy Lin as they were a much better team with Lin playing
3. Improved 3 point team on a team that was #4 in attempts, yet #25 in percentage thank to Crabbe, Carroll, Russell and improvement from others.

Not having their own pick supersedes all of these. If the top of the draft looks as good as average Brooklyn, will be playing a lot of teams' backups over the last month or two of the season.

That's what happened/people said the last two years and the Nets still had the worst/near worst records. Nets also had no shame in shutting players down to develop and preview others late in both seasons.

This year is still about development and the future. I think people are also underestimating (including Net fans) the loss of Lopez. We have no rim protection, big guys that can score or create their own offense. Lopez 3pt shooting allowed us to open the lanes so that we were #1 in drives to the paint since he took the opposing center away from the rim. And no, Mozzy cannot do that. We are going to be 100% reliant on our perimeter players.

[dakomish23]

I'm surprised they weren't a part of the DEN LAC deal to get the pick.

[Young_Star11]

The outlook is not good for Brooklyn until they get control of their picks back, that will be after the 2017/18 and 2018/19 seasons.

In the meantime, taking on bad contracts like Crabbe, Mozgov and Carroll is not doing them a lot of harm, and in fact all three can be productive on the team.

I think given their plight, they have done well in the offseason. B+/A- for me.

[TheBrooklynKidd]

The outlook is not good for Brooklyn until they get control of their picks back, that will be after the 2017/18 and 2018/19 seasons.

In the meantime, taking on bad contracts like Crabbe, Mozgov and Carroll is not doing them a lot of harm, and in fact all three can be productive on the team.

I think given their plight, they have done well in the offseason. B+/A- for me.

We have our picks back next year.

[patman52]

Getting Crabbe when they already have Russell seemed kind of foolish. As I pictured Russell alongside Lin and with Levert already in the picture. To me the move to make was Dedmon to make up for the bad perimeter D. I was unaware that LA offered an unprotected 1st to dump Mosgov, I think I would have taken that in lieu of Russell and kept the late 1st. Carroll deal was outstanding. I thought for sure he was going to take Gay's min with the kings. Grade B and 26-29 wins. Atlanta may be worse.

[Texas Chuck]

The outlook is not good for Brooklyn until they get control of their picks back, that will be after the 2017/18 and 2018/19 seasons.

In the meantime, taking on bad contracts like Crabbe, Mozgov and Carroll is not doing them a lot of harm, and in fact all three can be productive on the team.

I think given their plight, they have done well in the offseason. B+/A- for me.

We have our picks back next year.

The next Brooklyn first you own is in 2019 which is after the 2 seasons he listed. So strange rebuttal considering his statement is accurate.


As for the off-season, I'm one of the few who thought the Lakers clearly got the best of the Lopez/Russell swap. I'm just not that high on Russell. I thought the Lakers made a really smart deal. That said, this is exactly the sort of gamble the Nets should be taking. Really the only thing they lose here if Russell isn't a player they deem worth giving a big extension to is that last year of Mozgov's deal which is bad, but not the end of the world. And Russell gives you a young player to sell to your fans.

So in that regard taking on DMC to pick up another minor asset makes sense. And I guess I have to trust their FO that they really like Alan Crabbe. To me the main takeaway is that its clear this FO has an actual plan and is executing it. I have to give them a good grade for that even if I don't like Russell or Crabbe quite as much as they do.

[TheBrooklynKidd]

The outlook is not good for Brooklyn until they get control of their picks back, that will be after the 2017/18 and 2018/19 seasons.

In the meantime, taking on bad contracts like Crabbe, Mozgov and Carroll is not doing them a lot of harm, and in fact all three can be productive on the team.

I think given their plight, they have done well in the offseason. B+/A- for me.

We have our picks back next year.

The next Brooklyn first you own is in 2019 which is after the 2 seasons he listed. So strange rebuttal considering his statement is accurate.


As for the off-season, I'm one of the few who thought the Lakers clearly got the best of the Lopez/Russell swap. I'm just not that high on Russell. I thought the Lakers made a really smart deal. That said, this is exactly the sort of gamble the Nets should be taking. Really the only thing they lose here if Russell isn't a player they deem worth giving a big extension to is that last year of Mozgov's deal which is bad, but not the end of the world. And Russell gives you a young player to sell to your fans.

So in that regard taking on DMC to pick up another minor asset makes sense. And I guess I have to trust their FO that they really like Alan Crabbe. To me the main takeaway is that its clear this FO has an actual plan and is executing it. I have to give them a good grade for that even if I don't like Russell or Crabbe quite as much as they do.

My bad I misread his comment I thought he wrote drafts. Oops

And I disagree I'm very high on Russell. I've been high on him since Ohio State back when I thought there was no chance he would ever be on the Nets. IMO he's one of the most dynamic scoring guards we've seen come out of the draft in the past couple of years. I also don't see how anyone could view the Lakers as winners since they gave up about 6 guaranteed years (unless he accepts a QO) of a 21 year old former #2 pick who put up similar productionto other stars at this point in their careers (Curry, Harden, Westbrook etc.) for a 1 year rental, a late pick and cap space to chase a dream.