Cavs/Clips/Knicks - Cavs 2018 Champs - Kyrie to LA

[Caramel_Anton]

Obviously Kyrie is better than guys like Teague. It's pretty ridiculous to claim otherwise.

Kyrie is basically lillard. He's like 95% of lillard. He's also someone who you can always rely on in the playoffs which puts him clearly over Lowry too. Lowry plays at 50% in playoffs so his best is completely irrelevant.

I agree - which is why I said he is #5 and Dame is #6. Kyrie has a championship & is younger. On a cheaper contract too.

So when you rank the PGs, you are talking about trade value then? Not which ones are actually better? Because that's a much different argument.. and it invites guys like Lonzo Ball and Markelle Fultz to the party as well. Because if they were suddenly put on the block, they are extremely young, cost-controlled for 4 years and team controlled for 5 (and likely 8), and look to be 2 extremely good young players.

If we're talking on-court impact and how good a player actually is, I can't see how Irving beats out Lillard, who is the face of his franchise not 2nd banana, or Lowry, who plays better defense, and puts up better numbers in the exact same role as Irving.

No I was saying those things were added bonuses. He beats out Lillard BECAUSE Lillard is the face of his franchise. If Kyrie was in POR he'd be averaging 30+ppg in the last few seasons. He shoots more efficiently and EVEN BETTER IN FINALS GAMES. An unknown experience for Lillard. Thats why Dame is 6 and Uncle Drew is 5..

[FNQ]

There is NO ONE (including Steph) that has a better overall offensive game at the PG position than Kyrie. What is everyone watching??? He has a top 1 or 2 handle, can finish around the basket better than anyone, he can create his own shot, he can stop and hit from 10 ft., left handed drives and scoops....you all are crazy. Now does he lack on the defensive end, no doubt, but when you are have the best overall offensive game, I don't care how bad you think his defense is, and I have a suggestion, maybe you watch him block some Curry shots on drives in the finals, as he plays much better d when the stakes are the highest.

per 82games.com:

Kyrie eFG close to the basket (that's layups, dunks, and inside 5 ft): .563
Steph: .590
Isaiah: .578
Kemba: .539
CP3: .581
Conley: .599
Dragic: .578
Russ: .538
Lillard: .557
Lowry: .607
Wall: .548

There's no part of Steph's offensive game that looks weaker than Kyrie's.. like none at all.

[FNQ]

I agree - which is why I said he is #5 and Dame is #6. Kyrie has a championship & is younger. On a cheaper contract too.

So when you rank the PGs, you are talking about trade value then? Not which ones are actually better? Because that's a much different argument.. and it invites guys like Lonzo Ball and Markelle Fultz to the party as well. Because if they were suddenly put on the block, they are extremely young, cost-controlled for 4 years and team controlled for 5 (and likely 8), and look to be 2 extremely good young players.

If we're talking on-court impact and how good a player actually is, I can't see how Irving beats out Lillard, who is the face of his franchise not 2nd banana, or Lowry, who plays better defense, and puts up better numbers in the exact same role as Irving.

No I was saying those things were added bonuses. He beats out Lillard BECAUSE Lillard is the face of his franchise. If Kyrie was in POR he'd be averaging 30+ppg in the last few seasons. He shoots more efficiently and EVEN BETTER IN FINALS GAMES. An unknown experience for Lillard. Thats why Dame is 6 and Uncle Drew is 5..

And if Lillard played with LeBron and got as many shots as Irving did, why wouldnt we think he's better? Because literally all the stats seem to suggest that, even though you said previously that they didn't.

[Caramel_Anton]

There is NO ONE (including Steph) that has a better overall offensive game at the PG position than Kyrie. What is everyone watching??? He has a top 1 or 2 handle, can finish around the basket better than anyone, he can create his own shot, he can stop and hit from 10 ft., left handed drives and scoops....you all are crazy. Now does he lack on the defensive end, no doubt, but when you are have the best overall offensive game, I don't care how bad you think his defense is, and I have a suggestion, maybe you watch him block some Curry shots on drives in the finals, as he plays much better d when the stakes are the highest.

Exactly - he plays great in finals games & high pressure games. He has the mamba mentality. It isn't "you guys" .. everyone on here is calling these 2 crazy - we all respect Kyries game outside of the 2 dudes who would prefer George Hill running their offense.

*cough* haters *cough*

[Caramel_Anton]

There is NO ONE (including Steph) that has a better overall offensive game at the PG position than Kyrie. What is everyone watching??? He has a top 1 or 2 handle, can finish around the basket better than anyone, he can create his own shot, he can stop and hit from 10 ft., left handed drives and scoops....you all are crazy. Now does he lack on the defensive end, no doubt, but when you are have the best overall offensive game, I don't care how bad you think his defense is, and I have a suggestion, maybe you watch him block some Curry shots on drives in the finals, as he plays much better d when the stakes are the highest.

per 82games.com:

Kyrie eFG close to the basket (that's layups, dunks, and inside 5 ft): .563
Steph: .590
Isaiah: .578
Kemba: .539
CP3: .581
Conley: .599
Dragic: .578
Russ: .538
Lillard: .557
Lowry: .607
Wall: .548

There's no part of Steph's offensive game that looks weaker than Kyrie's.. like none at all.

Why are you listing close to the basket. Just do his eFG% - eFG includes 3 pointers. What is this? Stop with the fake news stat twisting, it's such a low form of debating.

[Caramel_Anton]

So when you rank the PGs, you are talking about trade value then? Not which ones are actually better? Because that's a much different argument.. and it invites guys like Lonzo Ball and Markelle Fultz to the party as well. Because if they were suddenly put on the block, they are extremely young, cost-controlled for 4 years and team controlled for 5 (and likely 8), and look to be 2 extremely good young players.

If we're talking on-court impact and how good a player actually is, I can't see how Irving beats out Lillard, who is the face of his franchise not 2nd banana, or Lowry, who plays better defense, and puts up better numbers in the exact same role as Irving.

No I was saying those things were added bonuses. He beats out Lillard BECAUSE Lillard is the face of his franchise. If Kyrie was in POR he'd be averaging 30+ppg in the last few seasons. He shoots more efficiently and EVEN BETTER IN FINALS GAMES. An unknown experience for Lillard. Thats why Dame is 6 and Uncle Drew is 5..

And if Lillard played with LeBron and got as many shots as Irving did, why wouldnt we think he's better? Because literally all the stats seem to suggest that, even though you said previously that they didn't.

They took like the exact same amount of shots last year, Kyrie was just more efficient.

[FNQ]

None of those guys you named are better - stat wise. So if this is some kind of opinion based response, I don't see the point?

Steph, Westbrook, Paul, Wall, Irving - In that order - That is NBA's top 5 pgs. Dame #6.

There are many point guards Id rather have on my team than Kyrie too - doesn't mean I am going to not give him the credit he deserves.

You make these blanket statements.. and they aren't correct. The 2 guys I listed first are better, stats wise:

Start with Kyrie's season, w/the potential GOAT: 25.9ppg, 5.8 apg, .580 TS%

Isaiah Thomas: 28.9 ppg, 5.9 apg, .625 TS% (he was their offensive catalyst)
Damian Lillard: 27.0 ppg, 6.0 apg, .586 TS% (he was their offensive catalyst)

then the guys I think who are just as good/impactful:

Kemba Walker: 23.2 ppg, 5.5 apg, .569 TS% (he was their offensive catalyst)
Kyle Lowry: 22.4 ppg, 7.0 apg, .623 TS% (in the same role as Irving as 1B or option 2)

Here are some others who are comparable:

Mike Conley: 20.5 ppg, 6.3 apg, .602 TS%
George Hill: 16.9 ppg, 4.2 apg, .599 TS%
Goran Dragic: 20.3 ppg, 5.8 apg, .576 TS%

Assuming Harden and LeBron are not PGs, I would take Steph, CP3, Westbrook, Wall, Lillard, Lowry for sure over Irving right now. I think guys like Kemba, Conley, and IT are in the same tier, though I like Kemba and Conley's all-around game over Irving's offense-only style.

As for your top 5, its entirely opinion-based as well.

Again, I'll say it. IT had 1 good year and 1 great year. How about look at the past 3 years. Or career stats of these players?

Lillard is on par with Kyrie but Kyrie has the ring, the playoff experience and the ability to outperform his regular season stats in the playoffs.

Everyone else you listed is just not worth addressing. Tell me who has the best eFG% out of all those guys last season. I'll wait. Add Steph in there too while you calculate.

Or why not choose stats that arent perfectly convenient for your argument, like eFG% over TS% (which is the better overall metric anyway when measuring a shooters efficiency & effectiveness)?

So we're ranking by careers now? The goalposts seem to keep moving just to keep Irving looking better.

Kyrie has had the extreme benefit of playing with the best player in the league, and instead of ticking down his #s as a #1 option, you seem to be implying he'd be better (and thus, POR would be better) if they swapped the 2 straight up? No metric supports this.

You use eFG - which is not, at all, the better overall efficiency metric between eFG/TS% - as your only argument.. but then one guy who mops the floor with Kyrie's eFG, Lowry, isnt worth discussing. Thomas, who crushed him in eFG and all offensive metrics, doesnt count because its only 1.5 seasons. Meanwhile in 3 seasons with LeBron, Irving has had only 2 good years.. it seems the qualifiers change based on who you're evaluating, which makes no sense.

[FNQ]

No I was saying those things were added bonuses. He beats out Lillard BECAUSE Lillard is the face of his franchise. If Kyrie was in POR he'd be averaging 30+ppg in the last few seasons. He shoots more efficiently and EVEN BETTER IN FINALS GAMES. An unknown experience for Lillard. Thats why Dame is 6 and Uncle Drew is 5..

And if Lillard played with LeBron and got as many shots as Irving did, why wouldnt we think he's better? Because literally all the stats seem to suggest that, even though you said previously that they didn't.

They took like the exact same amount of shots last year, Kyrie was just more efficient.

Except he wasn't, and leaving out the argument of the best player in the league as a teammate / defensive distraction is exactly what I'm talking about. It defies logic to pretend that Irving and Lillard are playing on the same field here. Teams are not going to sell out to stop CJ McCollum the same way they are going to sell out to stop LeBron. Nevermind that the Cavs flanked Irving and LeBron with Love and Korver, while the Blazers had guys like Turner, Crabbe, Harkless and Vonleh.

[FNQ]

There is NO ONE (including Steph) that has a better overall offensive game at the PG position than Kyrie. What is everyone watching??? He has a top 1 or 2 handle, can finish around the basket better than anyone, he can create his own shot, he can stop and hit from 10 ft., left handed drives and scoops....you all are crazy. Now does he lack on the defensive end, no doubt, but when you are have the best overall offensive game, I don't care how bad you think his defense is, and I have a suggestion, maybe you watch him block some Curry shots on drives in the finals, as he plays much better d when the stakes are the highest.

per 82games.com:

Kyrie eFG close to the basket (that's layups, dunks, and inside 5 ft): .563
Steph: .590
Isaiah: .578
Kemba: .539
CP3: .581
Conley: .599
Dragic: .578
Russ: .538
Lillard: .557
Lowry: .607
Wall: .548

There's no part of Steph's offensive game that looks weaker than Kyrie's.. like none at all.

Why are you listing close to the basket. Just do his eFG% - eFG includes 3 pointers. What is this? Stop with the fake news stat twisting, it's such a low form of debating.

Because he said he can finish around the basket better than anyone. I think you oughta cool it with the fake news thing, considering you said that no one statistically beats Kyrie. Many do. You just cherry picked a couple inferior stats.

[bondom34]

Well I admittedly went off topic a bit with that last comment but regardless my point was meant to be that Kyrie has not been carried by Lebron. Kyrie has held his own and arguably outperformed him in many playoff games. Lebron is obviously the better player, the additional point I'd like to make here is the fact that 2 of Lebron's rings came down to a single defining moment - and two people bailed him out each time. On top of the fact that the 1 time Lebron did have the chance to come in clutch with free throws he choked... Let's not downplay the supporting cast of Lebron James as people who he carries. He needed them - they needed each other. It's ridiculous to suggest Kyrie is nothing without Lebron. Without Kyrie, Lebron wouldn't have brought a chip back to CLE without taking major salary cuts.

No, he has been carried by Lebron. Lebron scored the prior 8 points dragging the Cavs back so Kyrie could hit 1 shot and get the credit. While a ton of other players are actually better and more impactful than Kyrie Irving, who right now is pretty much a slightly above average starting PG.

Wow, slightly above average.

As a 23 year old he averaged 28, 4,4 with 2 steals per game, with 46% from floor, 40% from three in a 7 game NBA FINALS, against the team that set the record for most wins ever. Ask Klay Thompson if he is an average PG.

And using advanced metrics he had the second highest gamescore in the series--ahead of Curry, Klay, Draymond....Cavs third best player in the series was Tristan Thompson. Digest that for a minute.

As a 24 year old he averaged 29.4, 4,4.4 on 47% and 42%! in the finals. 4th highest game score in the series---Lebron, Durant, Curry, and Irving.

Kyrie has his faults on doubt..and as a Cavs fan I have wanted to trade him in the past--but he has proven me wrong period. If he didn't want a trade-very very few Cavs fans would want to move him--and it wouldn't be for these insanely awful offers we are getting.

If I wanted a no defense PG who can't run an offense well or function on his own I'd just draft a rookie. Irving's not better than about 1/3 of the PGs in the league, and he's not worth a haul like will be demanded. His "trade value" surpasses his on court value. And using box score stats with game score (which isn't an advanced stat at all) as the leader of his value underscores the minimal substance to his game . He's middle of the pack in RPM, and last season in RAPM alone came behind Curry, Westbrook, Paul, Lowry, Hill, Conley, Kemba, and Bev. The team stinks when he plays without Lebron, and he's done nothing but lose outside of Lebron.

He's a talented scorer. Unfortunately he's not much else.

[Caramel_Anton]

And if Lillard played with LeBron and got as many shots as Irving did, why wouldnt we think he's better? Because literally all the stats seem to suggest that, even though you said previously that they didn't.

They took like the exact same amount of shots last year, Kyrie was just more efficient.

Except he wasn't, and leaving out the argument of the best player in the league as a teammate / defensive distraction is exactly what I'm talking about. It defies logic to pretend that Irving and Lillard are playing on the same field here. Teams are not going to sell out to stop CJ McCollum the same way they are going to sell out to stop LeBron. Nevermind that the Cavs flanked Irving and LeBron with Love and Korver, while the Blazers had guys like Turner, Crabbe, Harkless and Vonleh.

I retort with the POR offense is centered around Lillard - where as the CLE offense is centered around Lebron.

[phraoh]

I don't go by stats, I watch the games, and I go by what I see. Kyrie has more variety to his offensive game and has more areas he is effective than Curry...just watch them...Curry can't not finish around the rim like Kyrie can...he is a better 3 point shooter period, and quite frankly he gets a lot more looks from his teammates via screens.

[bondom34]

Of literally anything you could choose, you say he's a better 3 point shooter.

[FNQ]

I don't go by stats, I watch the games, and I go by what I see. Kyrie has more variety to his offensive game and has more areas he is effective than Curry...just watch them...Curry can't not finish around the rim like Kyrie can...he is a better 3 point shooter period, and quite frankly he gets a lot more looks from his teammates via screens.

This is exactly why advanced stats have become trendy, because they perfectly counter this kind of argument. You can see whatever you want, but the stats are literally incapable of lying, and Curry seems to be better at pretty much every facet of the game

And I'd never thought I'd see the day where someone talks down Curry's ability to finish at the rim.. that's really what you see? Kyrie has never come close to Curry in terms of being able to score inside, statistically. Maybe Kyrie makes it look fancier? Whatever the case, end of the day, Curry's always had the higher efficiency around the rim, and its not been close

[bmurph128]

I don't go by stats, I watch the games, and I go by what I see. Kyrie has more variety to his offensive game and has more areas he is effective than Curry...just watch them...Curry can't not finish around the rim like Kyrie can...he is a better 3 point shooter period, and quite frankly he gets a lot more looks from his teammates via screens.

This is exactly why advanced stats have become trendy, because they perfectly counter this kind of argument. You can see whatever you want, but the stats are literally incapable of lying, and Curry seems to be better at pretty much every facet of the game

And I'd never thought I'd see the day where someone talks down Curry's ability to finish at the rim.. that's really what you see? Kyrie has never come close to Curry in terms of being able to score inside, statistically. Maybe Kyrie makes it look fancier? Whatever the case, end of the day, Curry's always had the higher efficiency around the rim, and its not been close

I also think Kyrie is a better finisher than Steph, and I don't think it's particularly close despite the stats. For two reasons:

First, Kyrie's free throw rate is too low for his drives per game - most of the guys ahead of him have a higher free throw rate - but Kyrie is driving a similar amount to them. It appears that instead of trying to draw fouls, Kyrie is trying to finish around the basket - so where guys like IT just throw their bodies into defenders and toss the ball up, Kyrie is warping his body to try and make the shot. Obviously when those guys are getting fouled on their ridiculous looking layup attempts, those aren't counted as missed field goals. This also negatively impacts Kyrie's TS.

As for Curry, being the best 3 point shooter in NBA history affects how people play him - guys are playing him closer around the 3 point line than they have any player in NBA history, and as such I would guess that he gets more open layup attempts. I guess you could say that feeding off your great shooting ability makes him elite at finishing, but I don't see it that way.

As far as scoring goes, the only thing I would give Steph over Kyrie is 3 point shooting - ISO scoring Kyrie blows him away, and just watching the finals showed Kyrie's finishing ability to be on another level. Maybe we need to amend that to "finishing in traffic". I prefer Kyrie's midrange game as well.

[magnumt]

I don't go by stats, I watch the games, and I go by what I see. Kyrie has more variety to his offensive game and has more areas he is effective than Curry...just watch them...Curry can't not finish around the rim like Kyrie can...he is a better 3 point shooter period, and quite frankly he gets a lot more looks from his teammates via screens.

This is exactly why advanced stats have become trendy, because they perfectly counter this kind of argument. You can see whatever you want, but the stats are literally incapable of lying, and Curry seems to be better at pretty much every facet of the game

And I'd never thought I'd see the day where someone talks down Curry's ability to finish at the rim.. that's really what you see? Kyrie has never come close to Curry in terms of being able to score inside, statistically. Maybe Kyrie makes it look fancier? Whatever the case, end of the day, Curry's always had the higher efficiency around the rim, and its not been close

I also think Kyrie is a better finisher than Steph, and I don't think it's particularly close despite the stats. For two reasons:

First, Kyrie's free throw rate is too low for his drives per game - most of the guys ahead of him have a higher free throw rate - but Kyrie is driving a similar amount to them. It appears that instead of trying to draw fouls, Kyrie is trying to finish around the basket - so where guys like IT just throw their bodies into defenders and toss the ball up, Kyrie is warping his body to try and make the shot. Obviously when those guys are getting fouled on their ridiculous looking layup attempts, those aren't counted as missed field goals. This also negatively impacts Kyrie's TS.

As for Curry, being the best 3 point shooter in NBA history affects how people play him - guys are playing him closer around the 3 point line than they have any player in NBA history, and as such I would guess that he gets more open layup attempts. I guess you could say that feeding off your great shooting ability makes him elite at finishing, but I don't see it that way.

As far as scoring goes, the only thing I would give Steph over Kyrie is 3 point shooting - ISO scoring Kyrie blows him away, and just watching the finals showed Kyrie's finishing ability to be on another level. Maybe we need to amend that to "finishing in traffic". I prefer Kyrie's midrange game as well.

FT Rate is impacted by officiating, not demonstration of superior skillset.

Curry is indeed the more reliable 3PT shooter. Curry can bury 12-15 3s in a game, whereas Kyrie may hit 5-6 3s (on a GOOD day). Heck, Kevin Love might even be relied on more for his Perimeter game than Kyrie atm.

Curry can also distribute the ball more than Kyrie. Keep in mind that Kyrie is putting up his numbers with Lebron there (and to an extent Love). Curry is putting up his numbers with: Durant, Thompson, AND Green!

They're both more SG than PG (pass first I mean), but Curry is by far closer to the PG mold than Kyrie.

But, I fully understand if you totally disagree. It's why we have two sides to every coin.

--Mags

[LightTheBeam]

I don't go by stats, I watch the games, and I go by what I see. Kyrie has more variety to his offensive game and has more areas he is effective than Curry...just watch them...Curry can't not finish around the rim like Kyrie can...he is a better 3 point shooter period, and quite frankly he gets a lot more looks from his teammates via screens.

This is exactly why advanced stats have become trendy, because they perfectly counter this kind of argument. You can see whatever you want, but the stats are literally incapable of lying, and Curry seems to be better at pretty much every facet of the game

And I'd never thought I'd see the day where someone talks down Curry's ability to finish at the rim.. that's really what you see? Kyrie has never come close to Curry in terms of being able to score inside, statistically. Maybe Kyrie makes it look fancier? Whatever the case, end of the day, Curry's always had the higher efficiency around the rim, and its not been close

Its because Kyrie has the Kobe effect, while Curry plays like Lebron.

Kyrie makes these crazy reverse layups and off glass impossible looking shots. He does it much less efficiently, just like Kobe did taking crazy fadeaway contested shots. Curry finds the best shot possible and often times beats his opponent off the dribble to lead to what looks like an easy layup. The difference is Curry puts in his work prior to the shot. When a fan watches the game it looks like Kyrie is a better finisher because these circus shots he hits.

It literally reminds me of Kobe/Lebron. Although Lebron was ALWAYS more efficient, Kobe was labeled a better scorer because the intense difficulty of the shots he would make. The fact is 100/100 times I would take the more efficient guy.

Last thing though, you keep saying Irving gets to play with Lebron which makes his stats better. I don't necessarily disagree with this, yet I don't think Lebron really impacts Irvings game that much. Lebron is a huge threat on ball, off the ball i'm easily taking Klay/Durant/Green whoever else the Warriors throw out there then Lebron/Love/JR. The Warriors have arguably 3 top 5 3pt shooters in the league and the 2 best. For all the talk about Love, hes really a 36% 3pt shooter on 4 shots per game. Klay averages 7 per game at 42% for his career, huge difference right there. Obviously Durant is a much better 3pt shooter than Lebron as well. This clearly opens the paint more for Curry than it does for Irving.

That being said, I mostly agree with your assessment of Kyrie. Guy was overrated like crazy after his title, I've said the same. Id take Kemba over him easily, I was called crazy.

[FNQ]

Last thing though, you keep saying Irving gets to play with Lebron which makes his stats better. I don't necessarily disagree with this, yet I don't think Lebron really impacts Irvings game that much. Lebron is a huge threat on ball, off the ball i'm easily taking Klay/Durant/Green whoever else the Warriors throw out there then Lebron/Love/JR. The Warriors have arguably 3 top 5 3pt shooters in the league and the 2 best. For all the talk about Love, hes really a 36% 3pt shooter on 4 shots per game. Klay averages 7 per game at 42% for his career, huge difference right there. Obviously Durant is a much better 3pt shooter than Lebron as well. This clearly opens the paint more for Curry than it does for Irving.

Not that I disagree entirely with your assessment of Irving. Guy was overrated like crazy after his title, I've said the same. Id take Kemba over him easily, I was called crazy.

To be clear, I agree entirely with the assessment above, and when I cite that he's playing with LeBron, that's more when comparing him to guys like IT/Lillard, who are the focal point of the offense and as such, the focal point of the oppositions defense. Irving is a clear 2nd thought when defending the Cavs, while IT/Lillard are clearly the 1st. On the W's.. its hard to tell who's 1st/2nd/3rd or what have you

[LightTheBeam]

Last thing though, you keep saying Irving gets to play with Lebron which makes his stats better. I don't necessarily disagree with this, yet I don't think Lebron really impacts Irvings game that much. Lebron is a huge threat on ball, off the ball i'm easily taking Klay/Durant/Green whoever else the Warriors throw out there then Lebron/Love/JR. The Warriors have arguably 3 top 5 3pt shooters in the league and the 2 best. For all the talk about Love, hes really a 36% 3pt shooter on 4 shots per game. Klay averages 7 per game at 42% for his career, huge difference right there. Obviously Durant is a much better 3pt shooter than Lebron as well. This clearly opens the paint more for Curry than it does for Irving.

Not that I disagree entirely with your assessment of Irving. Guy was overrated like crazy after his title, I've said the same. Id take Kemba over him easily, I was called crazy.

To be clear, I agree entirely with the assessment above, and when I cite that he's playing with LeBron, that's more when comparing him to guys like IT/Lillard, who are the focal point of the offense and as such, the focal point of the oppositions defense. Irving is a clear 2nd thought when defending the Cavs, while IT/Lillard are clearly the 1st. On the W's.. its hard to tell who's 1st/2nd/3rd or what have you

I figured as much. That being said do you account for that when comparing Currys stats to say Lillard?

Curry is the greatest 3pt shooter we've ever seen. I think part of that has to do with the fact of his freedom and confidence that if he misses his team is so good it doesn't matter.

What I am saying is I don't think the Warriors lose all that much if they swapped Curry for Lillard. There would certainly be chemistry/learning curve, but I think with Lillard it doesn't change a game in last years playoffs.

[FNQ]

First, Kyrie's free throw rate is too low for his drives per game - most of the guys ahead of him have a higher free throw rate - but Kyrie is driving a similar amount to them. It appears that instead of trying to draw fouls, Kyrie is trying to finish around the basket - so where guys like IT just throw their bodies into defenders and toss the ball up, Kyrie is warping his body to try and make the shot. Obviously when those guys are getting fouled on their ridiculous looking layup attempts, those aren't counted as missed field goals. This also negatively impacts Kyrie's TS.

I think that's part of being a great finisher then - actually finishing. Warping your body and making a cool looking shot is the exact same as putting your body into a defender and getting to the line - something Steph doesnt do, FWIW, very often.

As for Curry, being the best 3 point shooter in NBA history affects how people play him - guys are playing him closer around the 3 point line than they have any player in NBA history, and as such I would guess that he gets more open layup attempts. I guess you could say that feeding off your great shooting ability makes him elite at finishing, but I don't see it that way.

I would say his shot definitely plays into why he can blow by defenders quite often, but it has little to do with how well he finishes. Teams arent worried about his 3 pt shot when he's already halfway to the rim and killed his dribble. He routinely takes on the best shot blockers in the league and finesses his way into finishing.. adjusted per 36, Steph takes 3.5 "close" shots per game and Kyrie takes 4.2.

As far as scoring goes, the only thing I would give Steph over Kyrie is 3 point shooting - ISO scoring Kyrie blows him away, and just watching the finals showed Kyrie's finishing ability to be on another level. Maybe we need to amend that to "finishing in traffic". I prefer Kyrie's midrange game as well.

Kyrie seems to have the lead in iso scoring (1.12 to 1.09 PPP) but I fail to see any other area where Kyrie has an advantage. Curry has him by 3% (53-50) in terms of midrange/close range scoring, definitely has him in 3pt shooting.. The iso thing was a surprise to me honestly, Kyrie is in the 94th percentile while Steph's in the 93rd, but the rest seems to be handily Curry.