Solves Final Roster for All Teams: Wolves | Bucks | Jazz

[rugbyrugger23]

Wiggins on a max extension being more "valuable" than Middleton is debatable to say the least, objectively false to say the most....

Again, another trade that ignores that the Bucks would be in luxury tax hell for the next 4 years if they'd agree to it. No, no, no.

Are Bucks planning on letting Middleton walk? His max 3rd contract can be quite a bit more vs. Wiggins max 2nd contract.

[shrink]

How does Dieng's contract have value? He makes 15, 16, and 17 the next 3 years (not including his 14 this year), that's not value at all given his production and the new new cap.

I don't really expect people to understand DIeng's value because it's not blatant, but this should show you why his contract is fine, and Thibs loves him:

http://stats.nba.com/players/hustle/#!?sort=SCREEN_ASSISTS&dir=1&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Totals

Dieng was 5th last year in the NBA in contesting shots
DIeng was 8th last year in the NBA in charges drawn
DIeng was 12th last year in the NBA in screen assists
DIeng was even in the top 25 in the NBa in loose balls recovered and deflections!

The guy has good general stats, a great attitude, and never gets hurt - i think he's played 82 games the last two seasons.

When I see him compared unfavorably to players that are nothing like this, I just feel people don't understand Dieng.

[daoneandonly]

Try explaining???

Favors and Dieng on court production is very similar. Look up some stats.

Favors is UFA. Jazz should understand meaning of flight risk. Dieng has value due to his contract, and being a good value compared to contracts being handed out today/2018.

Favors has more upside. Dieng has some of his own, although a older player vs. his years experience.

Favors has more injury concerns.

How does Dieng's contract have value? He makes 15, 16, and 17 the next 3 years (not including his 14 this year), that's not value at all given his production and the new new cap.

Dieng for very similar production to Favors, will be making up to as much a 10mil less vs. his new contract.

You can't have it both ways, talk about similar production and future contracts but not factor in Wiggins expected Max compared to Middleton's value.

[LightTheBeam]

Yes Wiggins clearly has more value vs. Middleton, how much is debatable -- but you said Middleton has more value.

Wiggins is younger, better contract, more upside, less injury concern.

Middleton is better all around player now.

That equals more value for Wiggins.

Middleton is the better shooter, better defender, and already an established player. Potential is just a word. As mystical apple explained paying 150 million dollars for Wiggins is hoping he will progress an unheard of amount.

I anticipate a Rudy gay like career for Wiggins. Always wondering why he wasn't a better defender. Never really developing a strong 30t shot, being a 1 dimensional scorer who doesn't really make his team all that much better.

Give me Middleton on nearly any NBA contender.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using RealGM mobile app

You can anticipate all you want, doesn't make it so. Fact is that unknown (unknown by you or anyone) and untapped potential upside of a 22yo is a value premium in the NBA -- that can't be argued.

Add in a better contract, less per year price tag (dependent on what Middleton signs for, but due to 2nd contract status Wiggins can NOT exceed 149mil unlike Middleton max status who can exceed 149mil), no UFA flight risk, less injury worries, and despite all those things listed that Middleton does better right now, doesn't change the value scale of Wiggins > Middleton.

Id say its pretty amazing the similarities between the 2 players coming 3rd season in the league.

Wiggins - 45 FG%, 35 3PT%, 4rbs, 2asts, 1 steal, 23ppg. 107 ortg, 115 drtg, 53% TS,

Gay - 45 FG%, 35 3PT%, 5rbs, 2asts, 1 steal, 19ppg, 101 ortg, 110 drtg, 53% TS.

Simply amazing how similar these guys were after year 3. Literally the only difference was Wiggins had 3 more attempts per game leading to the extra 4ppg. Astonishing.

[rugbyrugger23]

How does Dieng's contract have value? He makes 15, 16, and 17 the next 3 years (not including his 14 this year), that's not value at all given his production and the new new cap.

Dieng for very similar production to Favors, will be making up to as much a 10mil less vs. his new contract.

You can't have it both ways, talk about similar production and future contracts but not factor in Wiggins expected Max compared to Middleton's value.

Huh????

Post this here just in case you missed it:
Middleton new contract comes in 2 years, his 3rd year is PO.

Next two years Wiggins is 6mil more vs Middleton (Wiggins: 7.6+25.5=33.1 vs. Middleton: 14.1+13=27.1). Then Middleton is flight risk, Wiggins is a RFA -- locked in for 4 additional years. Makes Wiggins contract already better. Advantage: WIGGINS.

If Middleton stays with Bucks:
Max 5 year is 172+ (with yearly cap increases should be 175+) or @35per+
Max 4 year is 133+ (with yearly cap increases should be 135+) or @33per+
If Middleton leaves Bucks:
Max 4 year is 128+ (with yearly cap increases should be 130+) or @32per+

When Middleton gets Hayward'ish money in 2019, of 128/4 (which is still 5-9mil discount), he will also be earning more per year vs. Wiggins' 149/5. Again rewarding Wiggins the better contract. Advantage: WIGGINS.

As for Wiggins being worthy of max, he is 22 with more upside (vs. Middleton who we know wasn't close to max contract discussion at 22). Wiggins has every chance to prove his worth -- turinging 26 (age of Middleton now) during next contract. Advantage: WIGGINS.

[rugbyrugger23]

Middleton is the better shooter, better defender, and already an established player. Potential is just a word. As mystical apple explained paying 150 million dollars for Wiggins is hoping he will progress an unheard of amount.

I anticipate a Rudy gay like career for Wiggins. Always wondering why he wasn't a better defender. Never really developing a strong 30t shot, being a 1 dimensional scorer who doesn't really make his team all that much better.

Give me Middleton on nearly any NBA contender.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using RealGM mobile app

You can anticipate all you want, doesn't make it so. Fact is that unknown (unknown by you or anyone) and untapped potential upside of a 22yo is a value premium in the NBA -- that can't be argued.

Add in a better contract, less per year price tag (dependent on what Middleton signs for, but due to 2nd contract status Wiggins can NOT exceed 149mil unlike Middleton max status who can exceed 149mil), no UFA flight risk, less injury worries, and despite all those things listed that Middleton does better right now, doesn't change the value scale of Wiggins > Middleton.

Id say its pretty amazing the similarities between the 2 players coming 3rd season in the league.

Wiggins - 45 FG%, 35 3PT%, 4rbs, 2asts, 1 steal, 23ppg. 107 ortg, 115 drtg, 53% TS,

Gay - 45 FG%, 35 3PT%, 5rbs, 2asts, 1 steal, 19ppg, 101 ortg, 110 drtg, 53% TS.

Simply amazing how similar these guys were after year 3. Literally the only difference was Wiggins had 3 more attempts per game leading to the extra 4ppg. Astonishing.

There was an article on this, did a much deeper dive into the comparisons. Comparison is real. BUT Fact is, Wiggins still holds upside, potential, and the unknown and the value that comes with it -- being he has a 3 year look-a-like in Rudy Gay doesn't change that fact.

[daoneandonly]

Dieng for very similar production to Favors, will be making up to as much a 10mil less vs. his new contract.

You can't have it both ways, talk about similar production and future contracts but not factor in Wiggins expected Max compared to Middleton's value.

Huh????

Post this here just in case you missed it:
Middleton new contract comes in 2 years, his 3rd year is PO.

Next two years Wiggins is 6mil more vs Middleton (Wiggins: 7.6+25.5=33.1 vs. Middleton: 14.1+13=27.1). Then Middleton is flight risk, Wiggins is a RFA. Makes Wiggins contract already better. Advantage: WIGGINS.

If Middleton stays with Bucks:
Max 5 year is 172+ (with yearly cap increases should be 175+) or @35per+
Max 4 year is 133+ (with yearly cap increases should be 135+) or @33per+
If Middleton leaves Bucks:
Max 4 year is 128+ (with yearly cap increases should be 130+) or @32per+

When Middleton gets Hayward'ish money in 2019, of 128/4 (which is still 5-9mil discount), he will also be earning more per year vs. Wiggins' 149/5. Again rewarding Wiggins the better contract. Advantage: WIGGINS.

As for Wiggins being worthy of max, he is 22 with more upside (vs. Middleton who we know wasn't close to max contract discussion at 22). Wiggins has every chance to prove his worth -- turinging 26 (age of Middleton now) during next contract. Advantage: WIGGINS.

And it's back to your flight risk argument that many of us disagree with. Not to mention, no way is WIggins worth a Max given his defensive woes.

[rugbyrugger23]

You can't have it both ways, talk about similar production and future contracts but not factor in Wiggins expected Max compared to Middleton's value.

Huh????

Post this here just in case you missed it:
Middleton new contract comes in 2 years, his 3rd year is PO.

Next two years Wiggins is 6mil more vs Middleton (Wiggins: 7.6+25.5=33.1 vs. Middleton: 14.1+13=27.1). Then Middleton is flight risk, Wiggins is a RFA. Makes Wiggins contract already better. Advantage: WIGGINS.

If Middleton stays with Bucks:
Max 5 year is 172+ (with yearly cap increases should be 175+) or @35per+
Max 4 year is 133+ (with yearly cap increases should be 135+) or @33per+
If Middleton leaves Bucks:
Max 4 year is 128+ (with yearly cap increases should be 130+) or @32per+

When Middleton gets Hayward'ish money in 2019, of 128/4 (which is still 5-9mil discount), he will also be earning more per year vs. Wiggins' 149/5. Again rewarding Wiggins the better contract. Advantage: WIGGINS.

As for Wiggins being worthy of max, he is 22 with more upside (vs. Middleton who we know wasn't close to max contract discussion at 22). Wiggins has every chance to prove his worth -- turinging 26 (age of Middleton now) during next contract. Advantage: WIGGINS.

And it's back to your flight risk argument that many of us disagree with. Not to mention, no way is WIggins worth a Max given his defensive woes.

Which is real, explain how it is not???

[daoneandonly]

Huh????

Post this here just in case you missed it:
Middleton new contract comes in 2 years, his 3rd year is PO.

Next two years Wiggins is 6mil more vs Middleton (Wiggins: 7.6+25.5=33.1 vs. Middleton: 14.1+13=27.1). Then Middleton is flight risk, Wiggins is a RFA. Makes Wiggins contract already better. Advantage: WIGGINS.

If Middleton stays with Bucks:
Max 5 year is 172+ (with yearly cap increases should be 175+) or @35per+
Max 4 year is 133+ (with yearly cap increases should be 135+) or @33per+
If Middleton leaves Bucks:
Max 4 year is 128+ (with yearly cap increases should be 130+) or @32per+

When Middleton gets Hayward'ish money in 2019, of 128/4 (which is still 5-9mil discount), he will also be earning more per year vs. Wiggins' 149/5. Again rewarding Wiggins the better contract. Advantage: WIGGINS.

As for Wiggins being worthy of max, he is 22 with more upside (vs. Middleton who we know wasn't close to max contract discussion at 22). Wiggins has every chance to prove his worth -- turinging 26 (age of Middleton now) during next contract. Advantage: WIGGINS.

And it's back to your flight risk argument that many of us disagree with. Not to mention, no way is WIggins worth a Max given his defensive woes.

Which is real, explain how it is not???

Like bondom said, if a player is a flight risk with 2 years left, you're essentially saying half the league si that. How does that make sense? How is he a flight risk with 2 team secured years on his deal.

[shrink]

Like bondom said, if a player is a flight risk with 2 years left, you're essentially saying half the league si that. How does that make sense? How is he a flight risk with 2 team secured years on his deal.

And like I said, Daunte Cunningham on a two year deal is not a flight risk. How much risk is that?

How does that make sense to you? Why would you repeat his 80% line?

[bondom34]

TBH Minnesota should just max Wiggins.

[Winglish]

This isn't as far off as some posters are saying but there's a real issue with the timing of the trade.

I could see the Jazz doing a trade like this at the deadline if they're well out of the playoff hunt anyway. But the picks being offered don't provided enough incentive to do this before the deadline begins. They'll at least want to take inventory of what they have without Hayward before blowing it up.

As far as the Bucks, they're not adding a first unless Middleton isn't the same player after his hamstring injury, and if that's the case, Minny probably shouldn't do it.

Spot on. For the almost 1/2 season that Favors and Gobert were healthy together the Jazz had a historically great defensive team. We definitely want to give them a chance to work together for a while to see what we have.

[babyjax13]

Try explaining???

Favors and Dieng on court production is very similar. Look up some stats.

Favors is UFA. Jazz should understand meaning of flight risk. Dieng has value due to his contract, and being a good value compared to contracts being handed out today/2018.

Favors has more upside. Dieng has some of his own, although a older player vs. his years experience.

Favors has more injury concerns.

How does Dieng's contract have value? He makes 15, 16, and 17 the next 3 years (not including his 14 this year), that's not value at all given his production and the new new cap.

Dieng for very similar production to Favors, will be making up to as much a 10mil less vs. his new contract.

Look, I like Dieng, but his production is similar to a one-legged Derrick Favors. Favors - by all reports - is healthy now. He is, quite simply, a far superior player. You can call into question whether or not he remains healthy, but Favors is the better player when healthy and it isn't a close comparison.

Dieng's best season 10/8/2/1/1 on 50/37/81 shooting (.501 efg%)
Favors' best season 16/8/2/1/2 on 52/00/71 shooting (.515 efg%)

Favors is also a year younger, and has 3 other seasons that are clearly better than Dieng's best season, along with 4 others that are about the same or better when minutes-adjusted.

[babyjax13]

How does Dieng's contract have value? He makes 15, 16, and 17 the next 3 years (not including his 14 this year), that's not value at all given his production and the new new cap.

I don't really expect people to understand DIeng's value because it's not blatant, but this should show you why his contract is fine, and Thibs loves him:

http://stats.nba.com/players/hustle/#!?sort=SCREEN_ASSISTS&dir=1&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Totals

Dieng was 5th last year in the NBA in contesting shots
DIeng was 8th last year in the NBA in charges drawn
DIeng was 12th last year in the NBA in screen assists
DIeng was even in the top 25 in the NBa in loose balls recovered and deflections!

The guy has good general stats, a great attitude, and never gets hurt - i think he's played 82 games the last two seasons.

When I see him compared unfavorably to players that are nothing like this, I just feel people don't understand Dieng.

I really like Dieng, and I love his defensive versatility. Favors is still a far superior player if healthy (and I understand that this is a big *if* at this point).

[illusional]

Bucks Receive: Wiggins

Don't know if it will involve Middleton, but Wiggins going to the BUCKS right now at this moment seems imminent, more now than ever.

[Domejandro]

Everyones a flight risk. Trade em all.

Couldn't agree more, if I learned anything from David Khan, it's that cap-space over production can buy years of false hope.

[rugbyrugger23]

How does Dieng's contract have value? He makes 15, 16, and 17 the next 3 years (not including his 14 this year), that's not value at all given his production and the new new cap.

I don't really expect people to understand DIeng's value because it's not blatant, but this should show you why his contract is fine, and Thibs loves him:

http://stats.nba.com/players/hustle/#!?sort=SCREEN_ASSISTS&dir=1&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Totals

Dieng was 5th last year in the NBA in contesting shots
DIeng was 8th last year in the NBA in charges drawn
DIeng was 12th last year in the NBA in screen assists
DIeng was even in the top 25 in the NBa in loose balls recovered and deflections!

The guy has good general stats, a great attitude, and never gets hurt - i think he's played 82 games the last two seasons.

When I see him compared unfavorably to players that are nothing like this, I just feel people don't understand Dieng.

I really like Dieng, and I love his defensive versatility. Favors is still a far superior player if healthy (and I understand that this is a big *if* at this point).

And a big IF he stays in Utah. And if any team is gun shy about a player bolting, Jazz should be.

Add all that up (injury history, flight risk, about to be paid [much] more, Dieng locked in with his own quality production and some upside), include a 1st going to Jazz, and despite the fact they do give up upside (really the reason to still demand and get such value for Favors) Jazz would have to strongly consider the trade.

[bondom34]

Should keep Dieng. Hes clearly more valuable jere so I see no reason for Minnesota to trade the most valuable players with no flight risk.

[rugbyrugger23]

Should keep Dieng. Hes clearly more valuable jere so I see no reason for Minnesota to trade the most valuable players with no flight risk.

Only reason to consider a Dieng trade is within a Wiggins trade. With both traded away, and taking on a 1 or 2 year deal only, Wolves get one big FA splash opportunity. Explained...

In this scenario/thread they get Middleton (2+1) and test drive Favors next to Towns. Let's say Favors stays injury prone, or asks for too much, or bolts MN. Wolves year before Towns extension/cap hold would have 1 offseason to see who their new look roster could recruit. Can Thibs using Butler-Middleton-Towns-Teague to recruit FA sign the final piece to a championship team? (Moving Gibson expiring might be required)

Other option (scenario in other threads) Wolves use Dieng and Wiggins to acquire contracts that expire 2019 offseason -- same time Butler-Gibson-Teague expire/option. Does another superstar collude with Butler and others on MN roster? In this scenario some signing of team friendly deals and other moving parts need to fall into place, but a scenario that works.

[bondom34]

I mean Dieng> Favors and Wiggins > Middleton so this makes no sense for Minnesota. I tried to say otherwise but you said it. No reason for Minnesota to take such an awful trade.