Higher trade value: Wiggins vs Jokic

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Higher trade value: Wiggins or Jokic

Wiggins
7
7%
Jokic
95
93%
 
Total votes: 102

Mystical Apples
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Re: Higher trade value: Wiggins vs Jokic 

Post#41 » by Mystical Apples » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:25 am

For what it's worth top 20 in RPM Wins for 2nd and 3rd year players and their production-to-salary ratios. 2018 is WAR projection which has a BPM weighting.

Embiid making the cut with 786 minutes is kind of amazing. Jokic's production-to-cost ratio blows away every other NBA player. Random plug for Aaron Gordon who BTW is still 21 for another minute. Wiggins' 3000+ minutes (8800 career development) is a catch-22.

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Re: Higher trade value: Wiggins vs Jokic 

Post#42 » by caliban » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:18 am

A lot of good posts in the thread. Thanks everyone.

Not that it's enough to propel Wiggins ahead of Jokic but a point in favor of Wiggins future impact is his position. I often hear podcasters and read articles defending somewhat underwhelming young PG's and Biggs due to it supposedly taking a longer time to develop into- and master these positions (probably because it's a convenient out dodging a previously bad take). Is this really true or just a another case of hearsay I wonder.
When building a rookie season model years ago, Wings by far required the most age consideration to predict career arc while PG's and Biggs was much easier to sort out by current level of play alone. I belive studies in age curves for APM has shown Wings to come into their own the latest as well but can't find the write up right now. A later arc would make a lot of sense to me given that they are asked to execute a myriad of different coverages on defense and generally has more of a read- and reactionary role on offense while the classic 1 and 5 are more direct and has less deviations from the high school and college years.

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caliban wrote:
Spoiler:
Last summer the board was in 77% favor of Wiggins over Jokic on 204 total votes (48% had Parker over Jokic as well). This was surprising enough for me to bookmark the thread. Now I wonder what difference a day makes?

Last years thread for reference


I just want to say to everyone else, this is the way to bump a concept.

It is worth re-asking about (if its too obvious that it isn't a question anymore then it doesn't deserve a bump even if you did nail it).
It doesn't directly rub anyone's nose in a previous opinion. Nor does it feel like a victory lap of a pat myself on the back post.


I can certainly pat myself on the back when no one in watching on ocation but pointing fingers and rubbing someone else's nose I try to avoid, I got too many bad takes on my own for that. I do however think it can be of value to get back to topics especially ones that may have seemed obvious at the time.
Looking back I'd say that it's also likely that Wiggins had a higher trade value last summer which makes a finger pointing right or wrong conversation hard to get something out of really. When does it ever. What I personally find interesting is with how much the pendulum has swung in the other direction in such a short time span and why that is.

1. Did their performance departure enough from their previous level to re-evaluate the general standpoint? Wiggins was the same which was a bit disappointing but no departure. Jokic got better which shouldn't come as a complete surprise due to age related improvement but looking back, the distance between the two was quite large in 15-16 already. I'd say Jokic level of play last season generated enough buzz for fans to watch him play more than an occasional game here or there which off course helped to raise his perception.

2. The sample size increased which makes us more sure of their level of play? Yes, absolutely. But again, Jokic was much better than Wiggins the previous year as well which was the only point of evaluation we had to draw conclusions from at the time which at least should have made the board less one sided than it was I believe. Jokic had a really good rookie season no matter how one slices it.

3. Jokic suffered from a Euro-big stigma? Not really, Porzingis became know as PorzinGod right at this time.

4. Media too early locked into the compelling Towns(no.1 pick) vs. Porzingis(NY) future Big man battle which contributed to the complete overlooking of a 3rd big man in Denver who arguably had the better rookie season of the three. This caused a groupthink that bundled off Jokic to no more than a novelty and someone not to take too seriously going forward? Yes, my guess would be that a big part was due to groupthink which now makes me very suspicious of this one sided poll.

On balance I believe the Wiggins evaluation has swung too far in the negative direction which is why I appreciate the ones in the thread that have tried to point out some things in favor of a less harsh take on Wiggins future career arc and value around the league.
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Re: Higher trade value: Wiggins vs Jokic 

Post#43 » by jbk1234 » Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:42 pm

simmbiid wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:I'm not entirely sure Wiggins will play up to the contract he's about to sign. So there's that.

Do you think they will give him the max? I think 100 for 5 is more than generous to factor in upside and to keep the core together.


I believe a full max has already been offered and Wiggins firing his agent was the only hold up. (Although there are rumors that Wiggins wants a P.O. in his last year).
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Re: Higher trade value: Wiggins vs Jokic 

Post#44 » by Dr Positivity » Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:18 am

I think even the traditionalists are seeing the holes in Wiggins now enough to reduce his trade value. That Jokic is off to a future MVP start to his career is still underrated but I think this is him
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Re: Higher trade value: Wiggins vs Jokic 

Post#45 » by MidMountain » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:15 pm

ESPN ranks Jokic as the 16th best player, Wiggins as 57th.

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