CLE-ORL-LAC

[Carlos Mancigar]

Cavs out: IT, JR, Osman, Frye, and Brooklyn pick
Cavs in: DeAndre Jordan, Evan Fournier, and Jonathan Simmons

Orlando in: IT, JR, Osman, Frye, and Brooklyn pick
Orlando out: Evan Fournier, Nikola Vucevic, and Jonathon Simmons

Clippers in: Vucevic and Crowder (and maybe Heat 2020 2nd round)
Clippers out: DeAndre Jordan

Cavs get a huge defensive upgrade in Jordan and Simmons and a reliable (and young) 3-point threat in Fournier to replace JR. Calderon could continue to run point, but Shump would most likely start. Offense won't be as important from the point guard position anyway seeing as how Fournier and Jordan are both big offensive upgrades over JR and Crowder. Facilitating would take precedence over scoring. Shumpert/Fournier/LBJ/Love/Jordan would work, for instance.

Orlando finally acquires a proven point guard to lead their young squad who can be retained for less than the price that their current point guard Elfrid Payton will probably demand. Of course, having two top-10 picks, including their own, in this year's loaded draft is the real prize. Osman is also a great addition who matches their development timeline. Note: JR's contract is a team option for 2019-2020 and Frye's expires this summer

Clippers replace their all-star center with another center with all-star potential. Crowder's skillset and friendly contract here is a bonus. I'm assuming that a coach like Doc will be able to get him back to last year's form. The Heat 2020 2nd rounder can be added for gravy.

Lastly, if OKC does decide to trade Paul George, I do think the Cavs can make a competitive offer of Fournier and Simmons in this scenario.

[jbk1234]

A team with one of the worst defenses in the league is not going to value Fournier. Not only is the Brooklyn pick going out but Cedi, Crowder and $15 million in expiring contracts? This is just brutal for the Cavs. I think Magic fans are going to be disappointed in what Fournier actually brings back if this is their expectation.

[A BETTER DJ]

As much as bringing in that 2nd pick sounds awesome for Orlando we want to draft our PG of the future. Payton, Fournier, Vuc, Biz, Mario and possibly next year's pick are all up on the block though so keep bringing the offers.

[Texas Chuck]

yeah the value is just way too good for Orlando who clears a ton of salary, gets the best player in the deal and the best pick. I get they are giving up 3 useful players, but no chance of getting that kind of return,

[Carlos Mancigar]

A team with one of the worst defenses in the league is not going to value Fournier. Not only is the Brooklyn pick going out but Cedi, Crowder and $15 million in expiring contracts? This is just brutal for the Cavs. I think Magic fans are going to be disappointed in what Fournier actually brings back if this is their expectation.

But a team with one of the worst starting shooting guards (i.e., JR) absolutely would. Fournier's offensive production is tremendously better than JR's. Moreover, his DRtg is exactly the same, despite being on one of the worst teams in the league. He's younger, faster, and an upgrade over JR in every way. He's certainly worth his value from the Cavs' perspective, and it's not as if the Magic are being ripped off either. Their FO has already decided to move on from Fournier in order to build around Gordon and Isaac. The value may seem somewhat lower than expected for Fournier individually, but overall the package, when Vucevic and Simmons are factored in, is better than they could possibly expect elsewhere considering the value of finally having an all-star point guard and acquiring the best draft pick possible that any team would be willing to trade them.

The Cavs are upgraded significantly both defensively and offensively. It's only "brutal" if you consider spending nearly all their assets a negative. However, they'd absolutely be maximizing those assets' value here. It's important to note that they'd be negotiating with a weaker hand in any trade scenario due to the well broadcasted need/desire to placate LeBron. They're going to have to add a little bit more "gravy" to any trade with this in mind, such as sending Crowder over Shumpert to the Clippers or overpaying the Magic, and it would be entirely justified when looking at just how much more complete they become by doing so.

[jbk1234]

A team with one of the worst defenses in the league is not going to value Fournier. Not only is the Brooklyn pick going out but Cedi, Crowder and $15 million in expiring contracts? This is just brutal for the Cavs. I think Magic fans are going to be disappointed in what Fournier actually brings back if this is their expectation.

But a team with one of the worst starting shooting guards absolutely would. Fournier's offensive production is tremendously better than JR's. Moreover, his DRtg is exactly the same, despite being on one of the worst teams in the league. He's younger, faster, and an upgrade over JR in every way. He's certainly worth his value from the Cavs' perspective, and it's not as if the Magic are being ripped off either. Their FO has already decided to move on from Fournier in order to build around Gordon and Isaac. The value may seem somewhat lower than expected for Fournier individually, but overall the package, when Vucevic and Simmons are factored in, is better than they could possibly expect elsewhere considering the value of finally having an all-star point guard and acquiring the best draft pick that any team would be willing to trade them.

The Cavs are upgraded significantly both defensively and offensively. It's only "brutal" if you consider spending nearly all their assets a negative. However, they'd absolutely be maximizing those assets' value here.

Try this - cut the Cavs out and find another team who is giving you a top 10, possibly top 5 lottery pick, a prospect like Cedi, an expiring contract, a team friendly deal like Crowder, and filler for that package. There isn't one. This isn't close. If your rationale for a trade is the Cavs are desperate, that's essentially admitting there is no rationale. But even if the Cavs did get desperate, and put the Brooklyn pick on the table, their phone will be ringing off the hook with better offers.

[Carlos Mancigar]

A team with one of the worst defenses in the league is not going to value Fournier. Not only is the Brooklyn pick going out but Cedi, Crowder and $15 million in expiring contracts? This is just brutal for the Cavs. I think Magic fans are going to be disappointed in what Fournier actually brings back if this is their expectation.

But a team with one of the worst starting shooting guards absolutely would. Fournier's offensive production is tremendously better than JR's. Moreover, his DRtg is exactly the same, despite being on one of the worst teams in the league. He's younger, faster, and an upgrade over JR in every way. He's certainly worth his value from the Cavs' perspective, and it's not as if the Magic are being ripped off either. Their FO has already decided to move on from Fournier in order to build around Gordon and Isaac. The value may seem somewhat lower than expected for Fournier individually, but overall the package, when Vucevic and Simmons are factored in, is better than they could possibly expect elsewhere considering the value of finally having an all-star point guard and acquiring the best draft pick that any team would be willing to trade them.

The Cavs are upgraded significantly both defensively and offensively. It's only "brutal" if you consider spending nearly all their assets a negative. However, they'd absolutely be maximizing those assets' value here.

Try this - cut the Cavs out and find another team who is giving you a top 10, possibly top 5 lottery pick, a prospect like Cedi, an expiring contract, a team friendly deal like Crowder, and filler for that package. There isn't one. This isn't close. If your rationale for a trade is the Cavs are desperate, that's essentially admitting there is no rationale. But even if the Cavs did get desperate, and put the Brooklyn pick on the table, their phone will be ringing off the hook with better offers.

I think much of the value of dealing the Brooklyn pick to the Magic here is the ability to coerce the Clippers with the ease of substituting Jordan for Vucevic. The Clippers don't need to make any significant roster changes to accommodate the Cavs here. In fact, they'd actually be upgrading, offensively at least, compared to other offers which would require them to either absorb an inferior player for the promise of a pick or force them to reshuffle their lineups.

And, by the way, the absence of a competing or comparable offer isn't evidence that the offer at hand is bad. The Cavs have a hole that needs filled with pieces the Magic can provide. The Magic have a rebuild plan in mind that would tremendously benefit from an asset the Cavs can provide. That's a mutual victory right there.

[jbk1234]

But a team with one of the worst starting shooting guards absolutely would. Fournier's offensive production is tremendously better than JR's. Moreover, his DRtg is exactly the same, despite being on one of the worst teams in the league. He's younger, faster, and an upgrade over JR in every way. He's certainly worth his value from the Cavs' perspective, and it's not as if the Magic are being ripped off either. Their FO has already decided to move on from Fournier in order to build around Gordon and Isaac. The value may seem somewhat lower than expected for Fournier individually, but overall the package, when Vucevic and Simmons are factored in, is better than they could possibly expect elsewhere considering the value of finally having an all-star point guard and acquiring the best draft pick that any team would be willing to trade them.

The Cavs are upgraded significantly both defensively and offensively. It's only "brutal" if you consider spending nearly all their assets a negative. However, they'd absolutely be maximizing those assets' value here.

Try this - cut the Cavs out and find another team who is giving you a top 10, possibly top 5 lottery pick, a prospect like Cedi, an expiring contract, a team friendly deal like Crowder, and filler for that package. There isn't one. This isn't close. If your rationale for a trade is the Cavs are desperate, that's essentially admitting there is no rationale. But even if the Cavs did get desperate, and put the Brooklyn pick on the table, their phone will be ringing off the hook with better offers.

I think much of the value of dealing the Brooklyn pick to the Magic here is the ability to coerce the Clippers with the ease of substituting Jordan for Vucevic. The Clippers don't need to make any significant roster changes to accommodate the Cavs here. In fact, they'd actually be upgrading, offensively at least, compared to other offers which would require them to absorb an inferior player for the promise of a pick.

Post Vuc & Simmons for Jordan on the Clippers board and see what the reaction is. I'm guessing it will be we'd rather have the Brooklyn pick and add Lou Williams.

[Carlos Mancigar]

Try this - cut the Cavs out and find another team who is giving you a top 10, possibly top 5 lottery pick, a prospect like Cedi, an expiring contract, a team friendly deal like Crowder, and filler for that package. There isn't one. This isn't close. If your rationale for a trade is the Cavs are desperate, that's essentially admitting there is no rationale. But even if the Cavs did get desperate, and put the Brooklyn pick on the table, their phone will be ringing off the hook with better offers.

I think much of the value of dealing the Brooklyn pick to the Magic here is the ability to coerce the Clippers with the ease of substituting Jordan for Vucevic. The Clippers don't need to make any significant roster changes to accommodate the Cavs here. In fact, they'd actually be upgrading, offensively at least, compared to other offers which would require them to absorb an inferior player for the promise of a pick.

Post Vuc & Simmons for Jordan on the Clippers board and see what the reaction is. I'm guessing it will be we'd rather have the Brooklyn pick and add Lou Williams.

I'm sure they would, but if you were to ask them if they would rather have Vucevic and Crowder (not Simmons in this scenario) or let DeAndre opt out this summer for nothing, I'm sure they'd take the former. The worst case for the Cavs is they keep a very good center in Vucevic and bolster their bench with Crowder's presence. The worst case for the Clippers is getting nothing for their all-star center. The Clippers won't receive a better offer unless Houston puts Capela on the table or the Bucks offer Parker and Brogdon. Even with those in mind, an offer of Vucevic and Crowder is very much competitive and perhaps even better. This offer allows the Clippers to continue their playoff pursuits this season without any significant changes to the fundamental structure of their roster, as I mentioned, while establishing an improved core for next season.

[jbk1234]

I think much of the value of dealing the Brooklyn pick to the Magic here is the ability to coerce the Clippers with the ease of substituting Jordan for Vucevic. The Clippers don't need to make any significant roster changes to accommodate the Cavs here. In fact, they'd actually be upgrading, offensively at least, compared to other offers which would require them to absorb an inferior player for the promise of a pick.

Post Vuc & Simmons for Jordan on the Clippers board and see what the reaction is. I'm guessing it will be we'd rather have the Brooklyn pick and add Lou Williams.

I'm sure they would, but if you were to ask them if they would rather have Vucevic and Crowder (not Simmons in this scenario) or let DeAndre opt out this summer for nothing, I'm sure they'd take the former. The worst case for the Cavs is they keep a very good center in Vucevic and bolster their bench with Crowder's presence. The worst case for the Clippers is getting nothing for their all-star center. The Clippers won't receive a better offer unless Houston puts Capela on the table or the Bucks offer Parker, etc. Even with those in mind, an offer of Vucevic and Crowder is very much competitive. This offer allows the Clippers to continue their playoff pursuit this season without any significant changes to the fundamental structure of their roster, as I mentioned.

The worst case for the Clippers is they get $20 million in cap space.

[Carlos Mancigar]

Post Vuc & Simmons for Jordan on the Clippers board and see what the reaction is. I'm guessing it will be we'd rather have the Brooklyn pick and add Lou Williams.

I'm sure they would, but if you were to ask them if they would rather have Vucevic and Crowder (not Simmons in this scenario) or let DeAndre opt out this summer for nothing, I'm sure they'd take the former. The worst case for the Cavs is they keep a very good center in Vucevic and bolster their bench with Crowder's presence. The worst case for the Clippers is getting nothing for their all-star center. The Clippers won't receive a better offer unless Houston puts Capela on the table or the Bucks offer Parker, etc. Even with those in mind, an offer of Vucevic and Crowder is very much competitive. This offer allows the Clippers to continue their playoff pursuit this season without any significant changes to the fundamental structure of their roster, as I mentioned.

The worst case for the Clippers is they get $20 million in cap space.

They're already $20 million over. That does nothing for them.

[jbk1234]

I'm sure they would, but if you were to ask them if they would rather have Vucevic and Crowder (not Simmons in this scenario) or let DeAndre opt out this summer for nothing, I'm sure they'd take the former. The worst case for the Cavs is they keep a very good center in Vucevic and bolster their bench with Crowder's presence. The worst case for the Clippers is getting nothing for their all-star center. The Clippers won't receive a better offer unless Houston puts Capela on the table or the Bucks offer Parker, etc. Even with those in mind, an offer of Vucevic and Crowder is very much competitive. This offer allows the Clippers to continue their playoff pursuit this season without any significant changes to the fundamental structure of their roster, as I mentioned.

The worst case for the Clippers is they get $20 million in cap space.

They're already $20 million over. That does nothing for them.

Nope. https://www.basketball-reference.com/contracts/LAC.html

[giberish]

I think you can keep the guts of the deal and make it more even (and even simpler as well).

Orlando deals Vucevic + Fournier (or Simmons if Cleveland prefers) for Thompson, Shumpart, Nets pick
Cleveland deals Crowder, Thompson, Shumpart, Nets pick for Jordan + Fournier
LAC deal Jordan for Vucevic + Crowder.

I like the Clippers part from the original. I think Vucevic's a better fit with their roster and good value and Crowder adds extra quality forward depth on a good contract.

I think if Cleveland's moving the Nets pick for Jordan, they're shipping out Thompson in the deal (and not moving Osman). They keep Thomas and hope he works his way back into form. They do get a thinner on the wing - they could add in Frye for Simmons to cover though that leaves them short a big.

Orlando can live with the on-court downgrade for the extra lotto pick.

[Carlos Mancigar]

The worst case for the Clippers is they get $20 million in cap space.

They're already $20 million over. That does nothing for them.

Nope. https://www.basketball-reference.com/contracts/LAC.html

Ah, I didn't think about the other expiring contracts. Regardless, assuming that every player option other than DeAndre's is exercised and that the cap is $101 million, the Clippers will only have a little less than $11 million in cap space next season. I don't see a strong benefit there.

[Stillwater]

Sorry Carlos but this is not a reasonable trade idea for CLE or LAC.First the Nets pick is all but off the table. 2nd; The Cavs have ZERO interest in Fournier at the 2 or the 3 regardless of offensive attack. 3rd adding Vucevic does nothing for LAC.

[Carlos Mancigar]

Sorry Carlos but this is not a reasonable trade idea for CLE or LAC.First the Nets pick is all but off the table. 2nd; The Cavs have ZERO interest in Fournier at the 2 or the 3 regardless of offensive attack. 3rd adding Vucevic does nothing for LAC.

Ok, if we assume that the Brooklyn pick is off the table, then Fournier is, too, as far as this hypothetical scenario is concerned. The Cavs could still offer a package of IT, JR, and Osman for Vucevic and Simmons, flipping Vucevic and Crowder for DJ.

But I don't see why you think Vucevic does nothing for the Clippers. He's been phenomenal for the Magic this year. Vucevic would be an offensive upgrade over DeAndre Jordan, and while his reputation is not necessarily one of a defensive powerhouse, his production on that end has improved year over year. Coupled with Crowder, this deal does more than nothing for the Clippers—it actually makes them better.

[ejftw]

But a team with one of the worst starting shooting guards absolutely would. Fournier's offensive production is tremendously better than JR's. Moreover, his DRtg is exactly the same, despite being on one of the worst teams in the league. He's younger, faster, and an upgrade over JR in every way. He's certainly worth his value from the Cavs' perspective, and it's not as if the Magic are being ripped off either. Their FO has already decided to move on from Fournier in order to build around Gordon and Isaac. The value may seem somewhat lower than expected for Fournier individually, but overall the package, when Vucevic and Simmons are factored in, is better than they could possibly expect elsewhere considering the value of finally having an all-star point guard and acquiring the best draft pick that any team would be willing to trade them.

The Cavs are upgraded significantly both defensively and offensively. It's only "brutal" if you consider spending nearly all their assets a negative. However, they'd absolutely be maximizing those assets' value here.

Try this - cut the Cavs out and find another team who is giving you a top 10, possibly top 5 lottery pick, a prospect like Cedi, an expiring contract, a team friendly deal like Crowder, and filler for that package. There isn't one. This isn't close. If your rationale for a trade is the Cavs are desperate, that's essentially admitting there is no rationale. But even if the Cavs did get desperate, and put the Brooklyn pick on the table, their phone will be ringing off the hook with better offers.

I think much of the value of dealing the Brooklyn pick to the Magic here is the ability to coerce the Clippers with the ease of substituting Jordan for Vucevic. The Clippers don't need to make any significant roster changes to accommodate the Cavs here. In fact, they'd actually be upgrading, offensively at least, compared to other offers which would require them to either absorb an inferior player for the promise of a pick or force them to reshuffle their lineups.

And, by the way, the absence of a competing or comparable offer isn't evidence that the offer at hand is bad. The Cavs have a hole that needs filled with pieces the Magic can provide. The Magic have a rebuild plan in mind that would tremendously benefit from an asset the Cavs can provide. That's a mutual victory right there.

The "offensive" upgrade for the Clippers here is astronomically smaller than the defensive downgrade. Not to mention chemistry.

Post Vuc & Simmons for Jordan on the Clippers board and see what the reaction is. I'm guessing it will be we'd rather have the Brooklyn pick and add Lou Williams.

It would be neither. Clippers aren't giving up DJ & Lou Gotti for a mid-lotto chance at jumping.