Celtics Move Up

[Larry Legend 33]

Next season, the Sacramento pick could finish around #10 - #11 which is close to what you are projecting.

If the trade package that you proposed was alluring, I would have expected the fans of other teams to have stepped forward and suggested that their team should do that trade. So far, the interest from other fanbases has been fairly muted.

I have looked at the draft thread in the Knicks section and those people are fired up and hoping that their team can improve their draft position. Trading way back to the 2018 Boston pick and some future picks might not go over to well with them. Perhaps/probably some other fanbases feel the same and want their teams to start turning things around instead of having to wait for the payoffs of picks in future drafts.

I think teams with a longer tank in mind might be willing. But if you're looking through the lens of a team that has been at the bottom for a while now (Knicks), you're probably right that the GM will be feeling the heat to show some short term improvement.

[OleSchool]

Didn't the 10th pick last year get moved for pick 15 & 20?

Yeah Sac moved 9? for 15 & 20 but you have to remember they also had 5. So they were adding to high lotto pick. 9 was free money, so to speak.

In the scenario where your trading all furture draft assets (hypothetical I know) you would be asking a team to give up a high lotto pick for future gains. Maybe if you can find a team with 2 top 10 picks (like Sac had last year) it wouldnt cost that much

[Resistance]

Next season, the Sacramento pick could finish around #10 - #11 which is close to what you are projecting.

If the trade package that you proposed was alluring, I would have expected the fans of other teams to have stepped forward and suggested that their team should do that trade. So far, the interest from other fanbases has been fairly muted.

I have looked at the draft thread in the Knicks section and those people are fired up and hoping that their team can improve their draft position. Trading way back to the 2018 Boston pick and some future picks might not go over to well with them. Perhaps/probably some other fanbases feel the same and want their teams to start turning things around instead of having to wait for the payoffs of picks in future drafts.

I think teams with a longer tank in mind might be willing. But if you're looking through the lens of a team that has been at the bottom for a while now (Knicks), you're probably right that the GM will be feeling the heat to show some short term improvement.

Phoenix, Memphis, Orlando, Atlanta, Dallas, Cleveland, Sacramento, Chicago, New York, Philadelphia, Charlotte, Clippers


* Phoenix has been in a turnaround long enough and I think that the teams has to show improvement or McDonough will be replaced.

* Memphis needs quite a bit of work and their FO could be at risk of being ousted.

* Orlando has done enough teardown and needs to start building. Even though it is a new FO, I don't think they can trade down in this draft and wait to be rewarded in the future.

* Atlanta has multiple first round picks and they need star power. Trading doesn't seem logical to me.

* Dallas has a coach that can get quite a bit out of middle tier players, but they need to find a star.

* Cleveland will probably refrain from making another trade with Boston for a while.

* Sacramento would need to tank next season for it to make sense to trade down in this draft and get their 2019 first back. They have enough young players and are searching for star power. Unless Boston steps forward with an amazing offer, I would expect them to keep their 2018 first.

* Chicago has plans to start moving forward in fairly short order. Trading down in this draft works against that goal.

* New York has already been discussed

* Philadelphia will probably refrain from making another trade with Boston for a while.

* Charlotte needs to move some salary and Boston isn't in a good position to do that.

* Clippers have West working in the background, so it will be difficult for Ainge to win a deal with them.

[Resistance]

Didn't the 10th pick last year get moved for pick 15 & 20?

Yeah Sac moved 9? for 15 & 20 but you have to remember they also had 5. So they were adding to high lotto pick. 9 was free money, so to speak.

In the scenario where your trading all furture draft assets (hypothetical I know) you would be asking a team to give up a high lotto pick for future gains. Maybe if you can find a team with 2 top 10 picks (like Sac had last year) it wouldnt cost that much

It was probably #10 (Collins) for #15 (Jackson) and #20 (Giles).

[Patsfan1081]

If Boston package Jaylen Brown and Sac Pick (2019), it could put them in position to draft Bamba? I know Boston fans are high on Brown, but I think, if Hayward return to healthy, they yould be better served with a mobile rim protector(with a nice shoot stroke), than another athletic wing, what the fans think? Any team in the top 5 would do this trade, maybe Sacramento itself?

I'd rather just use lesser assets to trade up to get one of Gafford/Robinson. If I'm moving Brown in a package I would want an established player, especially if I'm included most likely another good lottery pick next year. Bamba is just too raw to gamble multiple good assets on.

[DowJones]

If Cleveland’s pick is 8th I would be good with trading it to Boston for their 2018 1st (needs to be added to make the trade legal), the Sacemtno pick, and the Memphis pick.

[Resistance]

If Cleveland’s pick is 8th I would be good with trading it to Boston for their 2018 1st (needs to be added to make the trade legal), the Sacemtno pick, and the Memphis pick.

I am good with the valuations, but why does the Boston 2018 first have to be included to make the trade legal?

[chris4celts]

I don't think this happens as proposed. If anything happens, I think the Cs trade up much further and give up a much more valuable asset to do so. Packaging late firsts won't get you anywhere.

[chris4celts]

If Cleveland’s pick is 8th I would be good with trading it to Boston for their 2018 1st (needs to be added to make the trade legal), the Sacemtno pick, and the Memphis pick.

I am good with the valuations, but why does the Boston 2018 first have to be included to make the trade legal?

If not mistaken, because Cleveland did not have a 2017 1st round pick, and the league will not allow a team to go 2 consecutive years without one.

[brackdan70]

If Cleveland’s pick is 8th I would be good with trading it to Boston for their 2018 1st (needs to be added to make the trade legal), the Sacemtno pick, and the Memphis pick.

I am good with the valuations, but why does the Boston 2018 first have to be included to make the trade legal?

If not mistaken, because Cleveland did not have a 2017 1st round pick, and the league will not allow a team to go 2 consecutive years without one.

they can trade it after the lotto.

[Resistance]

I am good with the valuations, but why does the Boston 2018 first have to be included to make the trade legal?

If not mistaken, because Cleveland did not have a 2017 1st round pick, and the league will not allow a team to go 2 consecutive years without one.

they can trade it after the lotto.

89. How are draft picks handled in trades? What is the Ted Stepien rule?

Teams are restricted from trading away future first round draft picks in consecutive years. This is known as the "Ted Stepien Rule." Stepien owned the Cavs from 1980-83, and made a series of bad trades (such as the 1980 trade mentioned above) that cost the Cavs several years' first round picks. As a result of Stepien's ineptitude, teams are now prevented from making trades which might leave them without a first round pick in consecutive future years.

The Stepien rule applies only to future first round picks. For example, if this is the 2017-18 season, then a team can trade its 2018 first round pick without regard to whether they had traded their 2017 pick, since their 2017 pick is no longer a future pick. But they can't trade away both their 2018 and 2019 picks, since both are future picks. Teams sometimes work around this rule by trading first round picks in alternate years, or by giving one team the right to swap picks with the other.

DowJones wrote:
If Cleveland’s pick is 8th I would be good with trading it to Boston for their 2018 1st (needs to be added to make the trade legal), the Sacemtno pick, and the Memphis pick.

Future Traded Pick Details

2019 first round draft pick to Philadelphia or Boston

After the lottery drawing in May, it will be known if Boston will receive the LA 2018 first or the Sacramento 2019 first.

If it is the Sacramento 2019 to Boston, a predraft trade would leave Cleveland (or similar) with a unprotected 2019 first which should fulfill the requirements of having a first round pick in one of the next two drafts.

[Larry Legend 33]

I will cede that Phoenix, Orlando, New York, Sacramento and Charlotte don't seem like logical trade partners, for the reasons you presented. But a bunch of these you're just searching & creating an excuse why it can't happen. You seem to not like it from a Knick's perspective and are thus against it for every other team.

-Cleveland will probably refrain from making another trade with Boston for a while.
-Philadelphia will probably refrain from making another trade with Boston for a while.
-Clippers have West working in the background, so it will be difficult for Ainge to win a deal with them.

These aren't serious arguments against the package I presented, they are made up excuses when there isn't a serious, basketball related reason not to trade. No team is boycotting deals with the C's because Ainge has won a few recently. Also saying this won't happen because West is a deal winner is silly.

-Memphis needs quite a bit of work and their FO could be at risk of being ousted.
-Atlanta has multiple first round picks and they need star power. Trading doesn't seem logical to me.
-Dallas has a coach that can get quite a bit out of middle tier players, but they need to find a star.
-Chicago has plans to start moving forward in fairly short order. Trading down in this draft works against that goal.

-MEM is in the first year of a tank, who knows where they're headed. This trade would give them their pick back in 2019, a high SAC pick, and two non-lottery firsts. They could value 4 picks over 1 if they aren't planning to compete next year anyway.

-Atlanta/Dallas are also in the first year of tanking, they are under no pressure to get results yet. Every team needs star power? I wasn't insinuating this package would fetch Ayton. I was suggesting they might not like what's at 5-8 and want to get 2 future lottery picks, and two non-lottery firsts.

-Chicago just started their tank. They might not be doing it next year, but that doesn't mean they can't defer a draft pick this year if they don't like what's available and have 2 future lottery picks & 2 additional firsts to consolidate into a star or reload later.

[Resistance]

I will cede that Phoenix, Orlando, New York, Sacramento and Charlotte don't seem like logical trade partners, for the reasons you presented. But a bunch of these you're just searching & creating an excuse why it can't happen. You seem to not like it from a Knick's perspective and are thus against it for every other team.

-Cleveland will probably refrain from making another trade with Boston for a while.
-Philadelphia will probably refrain from making another trade with Boston for a while.
-Clippers have West working in the background, so it will be difficult for Ainge to win a deal with them.

These aren't serious arguments against the package I presented, they are made up excuses when there isn't a serious, basketball related reason not to trade. No team is boycotting deals with the C's because Ainge has won a few recently. Also saying this won't happen because West is a deal winner is silly.

-Memphis needs quite a bit of work and their FO could be at risk of being ousted.
-Atlanta has multiple first round picks and they need star power. Trading doesn't seem logical to me.
-Dallas has a coach that can get quite a bit out of middle tier players, but they need to find a star.
-Chicago has plans to start moving forward in fairly short order. Trading down in this draft works against that goal.

-MEM is in the first year of a tank, who knows where they're headed. This trade would give them their pick back in 2019, a high SAC pick, and two non-lottery firsts. They could value 4 picks over 1 if they aren't planning to compete next year anyway.

-Atlanta/Dallas are also in the first year of tanking, they are under no pressure to get results yet. Every team needs star power? I wasn't insinuating this package would fetch Ayton. I was suggesting they might not like what's at 5-8 and want to get 2 future lottery picks, and two non-lottery firsts.

-Chicago just started their tank. They might not be doing it next year, but that doesn't mean they can't defer a draft pick this year if they don't like what's available and have 2 future lottery picks & 2 additional firsts to consolidate into a star or reload later.

These aren't serious arguments against the package I presented, they are made up excuses when there isn't a serious, basketball related reason not to trade. No team is boycotting deals with the C's because Ainge has won a few recently. Also saying this won't happen because West is a deal winner is silly.

If LeBron stays with the Cavs, he will be looking for something more immediate in help such as a 2018 lottery pick (or flipped for productive vet) rather than a late 2018 first (Boston) and some future help. LeBron still has game, but his "window" isn't going to be open forever. If LeBron leaves, then Cleveland will be rebuilding and will use a 2018 lottery pick to get things started.

Cleveland had to do a followup trade at the trade deadline because the Irving - IT trade was less than satisfying. If a Cleveland fan is reading this, please share your thoughts on the possibility of Cleveland doing another trade with Boston in the near future.


Currently, the 2018 Detroit pick (#12) and the Clippers pick (#13) are outside the initial range that you inquired about which was 5 - 8, so I am unsure if the package you would offer would remain the same as for a top 8 pick or would be lessened as well.

When Doc Rivers was in charge of basketball operations, the impression that most have is that he didn't win most of the transactions made. Jerry West will be 80 in two months and his salary as an adviser is within the range of what a GM is paid. From my POV, combining the above makes me think that the Clippers aren't trading back for future picks unless they win the deal.

-MEM is in the first year of a tank, who knows where they're headed. This trade would give them their pick back in 2019, a high SAC pick, and two non-lottery firsts. They could value 4 picks over 1 if they aren't planning to compete next year anyway.

-Atlanta/Dallas are also in the first year of tanking, they are under no pressure to get results yet. Every team needs star power? I wasn't insinuating this package would fetch Ayton. I was suggesting they might not like what's at 5-8 and want to get 2 future lottery picks, and two non-lottery firsts.

-Chicago just started their tank. They might not be doing it next year, but that doesn't mean they can't defer a draft pick this year if they don't like what's available and have 2 future lottery picks & 2 additional firsts to consolidate into a star or reload later.

Atlanta should have three first round picks in this draft and a future Cleveland first. There were some preseason doubts in this section of RealGM about them having a strong enough fanbase to tolerate a tank season and some felt that they would patch the roster. To put their fanbase through a tough season and then trade back to the Boston first and future picks is going to be a tough sell to that fanbase.

Dallas is a wild card because Cuban wants a good team, yet wants to avoid too many bad seasons to achieve that. I don't follow them that much, so I will let the Dallas fans weigh in on whether the Mavericks would trade back.

The Bulls are already projected to have a 2018 pick in the area of #20 from New Orleans. Some of their fans have been proposing ways to improve the New Orleans pick while I don't remember much activity oriented towards moving back with their own pick.

Your proposal has a team trading from mid lottery (5 - 8) to the late 2018 Boston first and some future picks. A team that inadvertently (or intentionally) puts their own fanbase through a tough season is using up some of the goodwill/credibility that they have. From reading in team specific sections on RealGM, the teams with poor W/L records and the accompanying high lottery picks are going through some suffering in the current season, but are quite active in the draft discussion threads because that is something positive to look forward to. If a team trades back for the Boston pick and some other stuff, they better win the trade or their fanbase will be less than happy.


In recent years, Boston has been:

2011 - 12: 39 - 27 (strike shortened season)
2012 - 13: 41 - 40
2013 - 14: 25 - 57
2014 - 15: 40 - 42
2015 - 16: 48 - 34
2016 - 17: 53 - 29
2017 - 18: 49 - 23

The Celtics and their fans have only suffered through only one truly miserable season which was 25 - 57, yet has had multiple high draft picks due to a trade with the Nets. I realize that it is difficult to understand how miserable things are for fans when their team is experiencing multiple bad seasons to get the good lottery picks when the Celtics themselves didn't go through the same to get the good picks that they have had in recent years.

[Larry Legend 33]

If LeBron stays with the Cavs, he will be looking for something more immediate in help such as a 2018 lottery pick (or flipped for productive vet) rather than a late 2018 first (Boston) and some future help. LeBron still has game, but his "window" isn't going to be open forever. If LeBron leaves, then Cleveland will be rebuilding and will use a 2018 lottery pick to get things started.

CLE would obviously not be interested if Lebron was staying. But you said yourself, if he leaves they will kick off a rebuild. If only the package I offered included 4 FRP's w/ two likely in the 5-10 range themselves. Seriously man, listen to yourself say that CLE wouldn't accept a package of picks for their 1 pick because they want to start a rebuild. This is the definition of a ready-made rebuilding package.

If a Cleveland fan is reading this, please share your thoughts on the possibility of Cleveland doing another trade with Boston in the near future.

If Cleveland’s pick is 8th I would be good with trading it to Boston for their 2018 1st (needs to be added to make the trade legal), the Sacemtno pick, and the Memphis pick.

I am good with the valuations, but why does the Boston 2018 first have to be included to make the trade legal?

You just had a conversation w/ a CLE fan who said they would do #8 for SAC/MEM/BOS without the LAC pick? And you said yourself that the valuation was fair. I’m not sure why you’re agreeing w/ him and then fighting me on the same topic?

The Celtics and their fans have only suffered through only one truly miserable season which was 25 - 57, yet has had multiple high draft picks due to a trade with the Nets. I realize that it is difficult to understand how miserable things are for fans when their team is experiencing multiple bad seasons to get the good lottery picks when the Celtics themselves didn't go through the same to get the good picks that they have had in recent years.

This is a good one - I'm wrong and you're right because you're a fan who has watched his team struggle? Okay then...

Im going to be done with this conversation because you seem to be incredibly entrenched in your position. I immediately ceded your fair point that there are teams who wouldn't do a trade like this, but you seem unwilling to see any other point of view than your own. There are absolutely teams that are willing to trade back in the draft if they don't like what's available (see SAC17). Your insistence that every single team in the lottery 1-14 is against this idea for their own specific reason is ridiculous.

[Resistance]

If LeBron stays with the Cavs, he will be looking for something more immediate in help such as a 2018 lottery pick (or flipped for productive vet) rather than a late 2018 first (Boston) and some future help. LeBron still has game, but his "window" isn't going to be open forever. If LeBron leaves, then Cleveland will be rebuilding and will use a 2018 lottery pick to get things started.

CLE would obviously not be interested if Lebron was staying. But you said yourself, if he leaves they will kick off a rebuild. If only the package I offered included 4 FRP's w/ two likely in the 5-10 range themselves. Seriously man, listen to yourself say that CLE wouldn't accept a package of picks for their 1 pick because they want to start a rebuild. This is the definition of a ready-made rebuilding package.

If a Cleveland fan is reading this, please share your thoughts on the possibility of Cleveland doing another trade with Boston in the near future.

If Cleveland’s pick is 8th I would be good with trading it to Boston for their 2018 1st (needs to be added to make the trade legal), the Sacemtno pick, and the Memphis pick.

I am good with the valuations, but why does the Boston 2018 first have to be included to make the trade legal?

You just had a conversation w/ a CLE fan who said they would do #8 for SAC/MEM/BOS without the LAC pick? And you said yourself that the valuation was fair. I’m not sure why you’re agreeing w/ him and then fighting me on the same topic?

The Celtics and their fans have only suffered through only one truly miserable season which was 25 - 57, yet has had multiple high draft picks due to a trade with the Nets. I realize that it is difficult to understand how miserable things are for fans when their team is experiencing multiple bad seasons to get the good lottery picks when the Celtics themselves didn't go through the same to get the good picks that they have had in recent years.

This is a good one - I'm wrong and you're right because you're a fan who has watched his team struggle? Okay then...

Im going to be done with this conversation because you seem to be incredibly entrenched in your position. I immediately ceded your fair point that there are teams who wouldn't do a trade like this, but you seem unwilling to see any other point of view than your own. There are absolutely teams that are willing to trade back in the draft if they don't like what's available (see SAC17). Your insistence that every single team in the lottery 1-14 is against this idea for their own specific reason is ridiculous.

My mistake on this:

I am good with the valuations, but why does the Boston 2018 first have to be included to make the trade legal?

I should have written:

i am not arguing valuations, but why does the Boston 2018 first have to be included to make the trade legit?

This is a good one - I'm wrong and you're right because you're a fan who has watched his team struggle? Okay then...

You are discussing this from the POV of a Celtics fan while I am attempting to put myself in the shoes of fans of teams with lottery picks. Since I follow the Rockets, I don't have an allegiance to any of the teams with lottery picks or to Boston.

As was pointed out earlier in this thread, the #10 that Sacramento traded back from in the 2017 draft wasn't their best lottery pick. At the moment, Phoenix is at #1 (pre lottery) and has the Miami and Milwaukee picks just outside the lottery. The Clippers have their own pick and the Detroit pick which are currently at the end of the lottery.

Your original inquiry was about #5 - #8. Even if we stretch the range to #5 - #10 to capture the equivalent of the #10 pick that Sacramento traded back from last June, there isn't a team that will have their second (worse) lottery pick at #10.

Yes, I am entrenched in my position because I can't imagine a team with a good lottery pick doing what you are suggesting they will do.

[Ducklett]

If LeBron stays with the Cavs, he will be looking for something more immediate in help such as a 2018 lottery pick (or flipped for productive vet) rather than a late 2018 first (Boston) and some future help. LeBron still has game, but his "window" isn't going to be open forever. If LeBron leaves, then Cleveland will be rebuilding and will use a 2018 lottery pick to get things started.

CLE would obviously not be interested if Lebron was staying. But you said yourself, if he leaves they will kick off a rebuild. If only the package I offered included 4 FRP's w/ two likely in the 5-10 range themselves. Seriously man, listen to yourself say that CLE wouldn't accept a package of picks for their 1 pick because they want to start a rebuild. This is the definition of a ready-made rebuilding package.

If a Cleveland fan is reading this, please share your thoughts on the possibility of Cleveland doing another trade with Boston in the near future.

If Cleveland’s pick is 8th I would be good with trading it to Boston for their 2018 1st (needs to be added to make the trade legal), the Sacemtno pick, and the Memphis pick.

I am good with the valuations, but why does the Boston 2018 first have to be included to make the trade legal?

You just had a conversation w/ a CLE fan who said they would do #8 for SAC/MEM/BOS without the LAC pick? And you said yourself that the valuation was fair. I’m not sure why you’re agreeing w/ him and then fighting me on the same topic?

The Celtics and their fans have only suffered through only one truly miserable season which was 25 - 57, yet has had multiple high draft picks due to a trade with the Nets. I realize that it is difficult to understand how miserable things are for fans when their team is experiencing multiple bad seasons to get the good lottery picks when the Celtics themselves didn't go through the same to get the good picks that they have had in recent years.

This is a good one - I'm wrong and you're right because you're a fan who has watched his team struggle? Okay then...

Im going to be done with this conversation because you seem to be incredibly entrenched in your position. I immediately ceded your fair point that there are teams who wouldn't do a trade like this, but you seem unwilling to see any other point of view than your own. There are absolutely teams that are willing to trade back in the draft if they don't like what's available (see SAC17). Your insistence that every single team in the lottery 1-14 is against this idea for their own specific reason is ridiculous.

If the Magic move down to 7/8 (which is very possible and maybe even likely if they beat the 6ish tank teams they still have left to play) and thus miss out on Mo Bamba, I am pretty sure the Magic at least entertain an offer for 4 1sts. It would have to be for both MEM and SAC picks though...