Middleton, Russell, Vucevic. Max contract?

[j-ragg]

There's a zero percent chance Vucevic gets a max contract. Centers don't get paid like that anymore. Especially centers of Vucevic's caliber.

what exactly is "his caliber"?

Guys that make the all-star game at 28 in a contract year? Just saying, he's been great but to give a (gigantic) max based on one season would be idiotic.

[tiderulz]

There's a zero percent chance Vucevic gets a max contract. Centers don't get paid like that anymore. Especially centers of Vucevic's caliber.

what exactly is "his caliber"?

Over the course of his career he's been around prime Brook Lopez level good (until this year I'd argue his peak was worse than peak Brook) - based on this year he's closer to a Clint Capela type level (completely different game) but still SIGNIFICANTLY (can't stress that enough) below top tier centers such as Embiid, Jokic and Gobert.

Vucevic can accumulate stats at a high rate but he's never going to be a guy or even the "second guy" who will help you beat over .500 teams on a consistent basis... Good teams are just too well aware of his flaws and exploit them accordingly so that even on his best nights Vucevic is giving you a zero-sum impact (he might get two, but the other team will get two on / because of him, etc.)

i would say he was always a better rebounder and defender than Lopez. he has range all the way out 3 pt. I'm not saying he is worth a max at all, as the game itself has moved beyond needing a good, offensive center. just think he takes more heat than he deserves.

[Karate Diop]

what exactly is "his caliber"?

Over the course of his career he's been around prime Brook Lopez level good (until this year I'd argue his peak was worse than peak Brook) - based on this year he's closer to a Clint Capela type level (completely different game) but still SIGNIFICANTLY (can't stress that enough) below top tier centers such as Embiid, Jokic and Gobert.

Vucevic can accumulate stats at a high rate but he's never going to be a guy or even the "second guy" who will help you beat over .500 teams on a consistent basis... Good teams are just too well aware of his flaws and exploit them accordingly so that even on his best nights Vucevic is giving you a zero-sum impact (he might get two, but the other team will get two on / because of him, etc.)

i would say he was always a better rebounder and defender than Lopez. he has range all the way out 3 pt. I'm not saying he is worth a max at all, as the game itself has moved beyond needing a good, offensive center. just think he takes more heat than he deserves.

I've always had him as a worse defender than Brook to be honest. There's this disconnect between Brook and his defense because of the fact he doesn't rebound (thus giving the perception he's soft / doesn't compete hard), but the one thing that people always lost about Brook was that he was very good at altering shots around the rim.

That was something Vuc never really excelled at. Both have historically struggled in P&R situations.

You could probably argue Vuc over Brook but it's very close. Their situations also parallel one another's pretty closely... Two dedicated team-first guys who go out there and produce night in and night out for perennially bad teams who have always been on the trade block, but haven't been / weren't moved for so long because it was impossible to get fair value for what they actually did (because other teams inexplicably undervalued them).

[Texas Chuck]

we literally just had this thread on Russell. Why not just create one thread asking who all people think will get a max?

Well, too bad I had a different idea.

We here are having a good discussion tho. So I don't see no problem. Don't be a party pooper.

I did nothing to stop discussion. Note all the posts after mine.... I simply made a suggestion that would bring similar discussion all to one central location. Trying to streamline the forum and facilitate discussion is kind of part of what I'm supposed to do around here.

This board has a tendency to get cluttered with lots of threads of similar topics meaning we have posters either duplicating posts or people might miss some valuable contributions because they are looking at one thread while the contributing post is in another.

I'm not trying to be a jerk or control freak. Just trying to organize the threads and board more efficiently. I'm open to an explanation as to why we need 2 different threads for Russell needing a max or not, but I'll admit I'm struggling to see it. Just like I'm struggling to see why we can't put all these players into one thread. It's not like an overwhelming number of guys warrant a max contract and some are no-brainer locks so....

[nate33]

It all depends on whether the first tier free agents change teams or not. If most among Kawhi, Kyrie, Butler, Kemba, Harris and Klay stay put, then teams like New York, LA Lakers, LA Clippers and Dallas will have a boatload of cap room and not much to spend it on. They may get desperate and throw more money than they should at guys like Middleton and Vucevic, possibly giving them a max contract.

But if Kawhi goes to the Clippers, Durant to the Knicks, Kyrie to the Knicks, and Cousins goes to Dallas, then there will be a lot less money available to drive up the prices of Middleton/Vucevic etc.

[Skybox]

Over the course of his career he's been around prime Brook Lopez level good (until this year I'd argue his peak was worse than peak Brook) - based on this year he's closer to a Clint Capela type level (completely different game) but still SIGNIFICANTLY (can't stress that enough) below top tier centers such as Embiid, Jokic and Gobert.

Vucevic can accumulate stats at a high rate but he's never going to be a guy or even the "second guy" who will help you beat over .500 teams on a consistent basis... Good teams are just too well aware of his flaws and exploit them accordingly so that even on his best nights Vucevic is giving you a zero-sum impact (he might get two, but the other team will get two on / because of him, etc.)

i would say he was always a better rebounder and defender than Lopez. he has range all the way out 3 pt. I'm not saying he is worth a max at all, as the game itself has moved beyond needing a good, offensive center. just think he takes more heat than he deserves.

I've always had him as a worse defender than Brook to be honest. There's this disconnect between Brook and his defense because of the fact he doesn't rebound (thus giving the perception he's soft / doesn't compete hard), but the one thing that people always lost about Brook was that he was very good at altering shots around the rim.

That was something Vuc never really excelled at. Both have historically struggled in P&R situations.

You could probably argue Vuc over Brook but it's very close. Their situations also parallel one another's pretty closely... Two dedicated team-first guys who go out there and produce night in and night out for perennially bad teams who have always been on the trade block, but haven't been / weren't moved for so long because it was impossible to get fair value for what they actually did (because other teams inexplicably undervalued them).

Vuc is far more talented in the low post than Lopez ever was and Vuc has been an elite rebounder for years...I expect ORL to keep him under 25m/yr just because, as you stated, the market just isn't that crazy at his position, given his non-elite defensive play. I'm really happy for Vuc as he's been underrated and even villified as an "empty stat" guy (which could mean his teammates sucked).

One cool analysis of Lopez I recently heard was that although his rebounding numbers are very low for his size and position, every team that he's on has excellent TEAM rebounding numbers. He's such an unselfish player that he consistently boxes out opposing bigs to allow his teammates to rebound. This really suits the modern NBA, where agile bigs like Giannis or Gordon-types can rip and run the other way rather than the traditional "big guy gets the rebound, swings his elbows, squeezes the ball and looks for a nearby guard".

[DeathLineup]

Hence I listed the RFA and UFA status.

yes, and im not a capologist by any means, but showing what the max actually is for those players i think would be more helpful.

based on some reading, i could be wrong but i think im right
Max Deals
Russell - 5 years, $158mil Brooklyn/ 4 yrs $117mil another team
Vuc - 5 years $190mil Magic / 4 years $140mil another team
Middleton - 5 years $190mil Bucks/ 4 years $140mil another team

Are you sure about those numbers? If you are, I'm going to input those numbers in the OP.

And I don't mind to restart the poll.

[DeathLineup]

It all depends on whether the first tier free agents change teams or not. If most among Kawhi, Kyrie, Butler, Kemba, Harris and Klay stay put, then teams like New York, LA Lakers, LA Clippers and Dallas will have a boatload of cap room and not much to spend it on. They may get desperate and throw more money than they should at guys like Middleton and Vucevic, possibly giving them a max contract.

Yup. That would be the best case scenario for fringe stars like Middleton, Vucevic and Harris.

Or if there are more stars moving from West to East, I can see some West teams being more open to give max contract for those fringe stars. Teams like Clippers, Lakers, Kings and Jazz.

[tiderulz]

yes, and im not a capologist by any means, but showing what the max actually is for those players i think would be more helpful.

based on some reading, i could be wrong but i think im right
Max Deals
Russell - 5 years, $158mil Brooklyn/ 4 yrs $117mil another team
Vuc - 5 years $190mil Magic / 4 years $140mil another team
Middleton - 5 years $190mil Bucks/ 4 years $140mil another team

Are you sure about those numbers? If you are, I'm going to input those numbers in the OP.

And I don't mind to restart the poll.

got it from this.

https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2018/07/early-maximum-salary-projections-for-201920.html

[Viper1500]

Who Vucevic has been prior and who he is this year are completely different players. He went from being a bad defender to a good one, and has a legit 3pt shot. And obviously an arsenal of moves in the post. However, I’m still hoping for something like 5 year 100m.


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[drosestruts]

I voted for Middleton and Russell.

For Middleton - two way wing players are the premium position in the NBA. These players get paid. period.

Russell - there's enough teams with cap space looking for a point guard (Chicago, Orlando, Phoenix, etc) that someone will give him a big offer and force Brooklyn to match or let him go.

In regards to Vuc - I think teams are just hesitant to offer big money to big men and it will impact his offers this summer.

[Prokorov]

All of them are going to be free agents this upcoming offseason. All of them are first time All-Stars this season.

* Khris Middleton - UFA - DOB 8/12/1991
* D'Angelo Russell - RFA - DOB 2/23/1996
* Nikola Vucevic - UFA - DOB 10/24/1990

Russell is the only one you can even consider giving the max to.

Vucevic is almost 30. He is probably as good as he will get. his numbers are pretty but on a bad team. I'd questions how impactful his stats are. even if his on/off stats show he is a positive, its hard to think you can be at your best offensively with vucevic getting so much volume.

I think in the end teams would prefer to 6-12 million for someone in the capella mold or draft a rookie in that mold the max vucevic.

Middleton is a solid player. at 28 im not sure how much better he gets. I dont think he can be your #2 unless your #1 is all-word (see Middleton).

Russell is 22, so you can still project some ceiling there and is the only one of the 3 who has shown he can be the #1 on a playoff team. although i guess middleton never had the chance

[Prokorov]

If they do get max deals it will be from outside teams. I don't think any get full max from current teams. Maybe just over what other teams can offer. But I think all will be asked to take team friendly deals and they may do it.

its a lock the Nets will sign Russell. if it takes the max they will give it to him. it will be agreed upon before FA starts. Nets view Russell as their franchise player for better or worse

[Prokorov]

what exactly is "his caliber"?

Over the course of his career he's been around prime Brook Lopez level good (until this year I'd argue his peak was worse than peak Brook) - based on this year he's closer to a Clint Capela type level (completely different game) but still SIGNIFICANTLY (can't stress that enough) below top tier centers such as Embiid, Jokic and Gobert.

Vucevic can accumulate stats at a high rate but he's never going to be a guy or even the "second guy" who will help you beat over .500 teams on a consistent basis... Good teams are just too well aware of his flaws and exploit them accordingly so that even on his best nights Vucevic is giving you a zero-sum impact (he might get two, but the other team will get two on / because of him, etc.)

i would say he was always a better rebounder and defender than Lopez. he has range all the way out 3 pt. I'm not saying he is worth a max at all, as the game itself has moved beyond needing a good, offensive center. just think he takes more heat than he deserves.

lopez is the worst defending/rebounding center of this generation. that doesnt say much.

[DeathLineup]

based on some reading, i could be wrong but i think im right
Max Deals
Russell - 5 years, $158mil Brooklyn/ 4 yrs $117mil another team
Vuc - 5 years $190mil Magic / 4 years $140mil another team
Middleton - 5 years $190mil Bucks/ 4 years $140mil another team

Are you sure about those numbers? If you are, I'm going to input those numbers in the OP.

And I don't mind to restart the poll.

got it from this.

https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2018/07/early-maximum-salary-projections-for-201920.html

Seems legit.

I'm going to update the OP and restart the poll.

[basketballwacko2]

All of them are going to be free agents this upcoming offseason. All of them are first time All-Stars this season.

* Khris Middleton. Max w/ his own team: 5-year, $190MM. Max w/ a new team: 4-year, $141MM
* D'Angelo Russell. Max w/ his own team: 5-year, $158MM. Max w/ a new team: 4-year, $117MM
* Nikola Vucevic. Max w/ his own team: 5-year, $190MM. Max w/ a new team: 4-year, $141MM

https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2018/07/early-maximum-salary-projections-for-201920.html

There are gonna be 4-5 guys getting big money who will never earn it. If the Bucks give Middleton that kind of money they're nuts, same for Kemba walker, and Tobias Harris, and I'll go on record saying Jimmy Butler isn't worth $30 million plus that he's gettingl

[DanishLakerFan]

These are three very different players in terms of their ability and situation.

Between the three i think Middleton is the most likely candidate to get a max because he’s an important part of the Bucks who has his Bird rights but no real chance at replacing him in case he leaves, so for that reason he’s negotiating in a major position of power. They may convince him to take a little bit less, but he could have max offers from other teams so there wouldn’t be any reason for him to leave anything on the table.

D-Lo is a RFA and if anyone wants to add him they have to offer the max probably. I could see the Suns wanting to throw him a max offer. Or maybe the Magic.

Vuc is different because his style of play is widely considered to be somewhat outdated although that may not be all that accurate given how productive he’s been. I think the biggest issue is that he’s playing a position that is flooded these days and there aren’t a lot of teams that both have the need or money for his services.

[NYG]

What kind of salary do you see all 3 signing if not MAX

[NYG]

All of them are going to be free agents this upcoming offseason. All of them are first time All-Stars this season.

* Khris Middleton. Max w/ his own team: 5-year, $190MM. Max w/ a new team: 4-year, $141MM
* D'Angelo Russell. Max w/ his own team: 5-year, $158MM. Max w/ a new team: 4-year, $117MM
* Nikola Vucevic. Max w/ his own team: 5-year, $190MM. Max w/ a new team: 4-year, $141MM

https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2018/07/early-maximum-salary-projections-for-201920.html

There are gonna be 4-5 guys getting big money who will never earn it. If the Bucks give Middleton that kind of money they're nuts, same for Kemba walker, and Tobias Harris, and I'll go on record saying Jimmy Butler isn't worth $30 million plus that he's gettingl

I say:

4/120 - Middleton
4/112 - Vucevic
5/148 - Russell

[DeathLineup]

All of them are going to be free agents this upcoming offseason. All of them are first time All-Stars this season.

* Khris Middleton. Max w/ his own team: 5-year, $190MM. Max w/ a new team: 4-year, $141MM
* D'Angelo Russell. Max w/ his own team: 5-year, $158MM. Max w/ a new team: 4-year, $117MM
* Nikola Vucevic. Max w/ his own team: 5-year, $190MM. Max w/ a new team: 4-year, $141MM

https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2018/07/early-maximum-salary-projections-for-201920.html

There are gonna be 4-5 guys getting big money who will never earn it. If the Bucks give Middleton that kind of money they're nuts, same for Kemba walker, and Tobias Harris, and I'll go on record saying Jimmy Butler isn't worth $30 million plus that he's gettingl

I say:

4/120 - Middleton
4/112 - Vucevic
5/148 - Russell

Just my guess. Vucevic will get a contract nowhere near his max. Middleton and Russell will get something close to their 4-year max.

Well, Russell might get the full 4-year max.