Woj: AD to LA for 3 1sts, Ingram, Ball, Hart

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Who won the trade?

Lakers by a lot
22
15%
Lakers by a little
15
10%
Both
44
30%
Pelicans by a little
19
13%
Pelicans by a lot
33
22%
Need to see the draft protections
13
9%
Other (explain?)
2
1%
 
Total votes: 148

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Re: Woj: AD to LA for 3 1sts, Ingram, Ball, Hart 

Post#121 » by Karmaloop » Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:31 am

warren weel im wrote:If only we could run back to the posts regarding this "weak" package LA sent. OH wait.


Very much this.
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Re: Woj: AD to LA for 3 1sts, Ingram, Ball, Hart 

Post#122 » by BoogieTime » Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:40 am

Karmaloop wrote:
warren weel im wrote:If only we could run back to the posts regarding this "weak" package LA sent. OH wait.


Very much this.

I believe you thought it wasn’t going to cost much more than #4 and another young piece or two. Must be a surprise to see this
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Re: Woj: AD to LA for 3 1sts, Ingram, Ball, Hart 

Post#123 » by paulbball » Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:50 am

Lakers got completely utterly raped. 4 year unprotected pick, and 5 year down the line unprotected swap?

If LeBron stays with the Lakers, he will be 38-39 for those picks.

Literally traded away half of a decade for Anthony Davis. Let's not pretend that LeBron + Davis is a lock for championship. The team has one starter in Kuzma outside of Bron + Davis.
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Re: Woj: AD to LA for 3 1sts, Ingram, Ball, Hart 

Post#124 » by Karmaloop » Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:52 am

BoogieTime wrote:I believe you thought it wasn’t going to cost much more than #4 and another young piece or two. Must be a surprise to see this


No. I said I thought their offer (at the time) was Ingram and the 4th overall pick. I didn't think that was going to be the final offer. I didn't think it was going to have so many picks. You start by offering little and go up from there.
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Re: Woj: AD to LA for 3 1sts, Ingram, Ball, Hart 

Post#125 » by Karmaloop » Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:54 am

paulbball wrote:Lakers got completely utterly raped. 4 year unprotected pick, and 5 year down the line unprotected swap?

If LeBron stays with the Lakers, he will be 38-39 for those picks.

Literally traded away half of a decade for Anthony Davis. Let's not pretend that LeBron + Davis is a lock for championship. The team has one starter in Kuzma outside of Bron + Davis.


ROFL

We've gone from the Lakers' garbage offer to the Lakers getting absolutely raped. Never change T&T board. Never change. The fact is the Lakers have a trio of LeBron/Kuzma/AD, but more importantly potentially max salary cap space. That's dangerous. There's a reason why the Lakers are the NBA favorites.
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Re: Woj: AD to LA for 3 1sts, Ingram, Ball, Hart 

Post#126 » by TGW » Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:56 am

Karmaloop wrote:
warren weel im wrote:If only we could run back to the posts regarding this "weak" package LA sent. OH wait.


Very much this.


Oh please. No one was proposing Ball + Ingram + Hart + three firsts. NO ONE.

This was a gross overpay.
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Re: Woj: AD to LA for 3 1sts, Ingram, Ball, Hart 

Post#127 » by paulbball » Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:05 am

TGW wrote:
Karmaloop wrote:
warren weel im wrote:If only we could run back to the posts regarding this "weak" package LA sent. OH wait.


Very much this.


Oh please. No one was proposing Ball + Ingram + Hart + three firsts. NO ONE.

This was a gross overpay.


Try 4th pick + 2x unprotected + 2 unprotected swap = 5 picks, not 3 firsts.
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Re: Woj: AD to LA for 3 1sts, Ingram, Ball, Hart 

Post#128 » by Prospect Dong » Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:07 am

Super Powered wrote:Damn... I'm numb.


You can't have been expecting much more than this... All that "an all-star, and a future all-star and some picks" stuff was never going to happen. This is a great price.
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Re: Woj: AD to LA for 3 1sts, Ingram, Ball, Hart 

Post#129 » by Prospect Dong » Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:08 am

MoneyTalks41890 wrote:
Mrakar wrote:I just hope Pels flip lonzo somwhere else. If not this will be disapointing return....


Lonzo to the Bulls for 7, 4 and 7 for 2?

Morant/Moore/Jackson
Jrue/Hart
Ingram/Hill
Zion
Okafor

I know I’m missing a bunch of guys but I like that core.


Not quite enough for the Griz, but Pels definitely have the assets to get the #2
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Re: Woj: AD to LA for 3 1sts, Ingram, Ball, Hart 

Post#130 » by Prospect Dong » Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:10 am

Karmaloop wrote:
BoogieTime wrote:I believe you thought it wasn’t going to cost much more than #4 and another young piece or two. Must be a surprise to see this


No. I said I thought their offer (at the time) was Ingram and the 4th overall pick. I didn't think that was going to be the final offer. I didn't think it was going to have so many picks. You start by offering little and go up from there.


Maybe you have some quotes where you suggested you would be happy paying something like this price for Davis?
"Cleveland would be foolish to move Bennett right now. Plus, other organizations have not had the opportunity to watch this kid"

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Re: Woj: AD to LA for 3 1sts, Ingram, Ball, Hart 

Post#131 » by Crives » Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:11 am

I think if you look at the picks Lakers gave up obviously this could end up crushing their franchise with 1 injury.

But one could argue Lakers were not getting any good FA’s with all the drama in recent months and the amount of cap space available around the league. And when I say good FA I don’t just mean players like kemba/Kawhi, I mean players like Mirotic/Brogdon/Bev/Randle/Green.

Adding AD is going to allow LAL to utilize their cap space in the biggest free agency ever. AD + 32m in choice in FA is probably worth all of those picks.
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Re: Woj: AD to LA for 3 1sts, Ingram, Ball, Hart 

Post#132 » by VCfor3 » Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:13 am

Karmaloop wrote:
paulbball wrote:Lakers got completely utterly raped. 4 year unprotected pick, and 5 year down the line unprotected swap?

If LeBron stays with the Lakers, he will be 38-39 for those picks.

Literally traded away half of a decade for Anthony Davis. Let's not pretend that LeBron + Davis is a lock for championship. The team has one starter in Kuzma outside of Bron + Davis.


ROFL

We've gone from the Lakers' garbage offer to the Lakers getting absolutely raped. Never change T&T board. Never change. The fact is the Lakers have a trio of LeBron/Kuzma/AD, but more importantly potentially max salary cap space. That's dangerous. There's a reason why the Lakers are the NBA favorites.


Yes we went from 4+Ingram+Ball as a weak package to saying you guys got killed due to including most of your youth as well as involving most of your 1sts moving forward. I don't understand why it is hard to see why our stance on the overall package changed while our valuation of the individual parts did not. Though maybe an overpay, it still sets LAL for a potential title run so I'm not saying it won't be worth it. Those picks could end up being late and the swaps not exercised so only time will tell who won this deal (likely both teams).
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Re: Woj: AD to LA for 3 1sts, Ingram, Ball, Hart 

Post#133 » by Prospect Dong » Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:14 am

VCfor3 wrote:Would Kuzma for Bogdan Bogdanovic+Bjelica work for both teams? Wagner and Isaac can be added on the Lakers side but how far off is that deal? Feels light for SAC but don't know what all else is really available for LAL to add until we see what their pick situation looks like.

SAC gets even more cap space and can go hard in FA while getting a younger piece in Kuzma to fit with their core. They can also take on an expiring contract for assets.

LAL breaks Kuzma into two pieces. They then can throw their remaining cap space at Beverly and use the Room Exception on Justin Holiday or a center or something. Beverly/Bogdan/LBJ/Bjelica/AD with Holiday (or Bogdan if Holiday starts) off the bench isn't terrible if they can't get a max FA.


Yeah, the lakers just need warm bodies to fill out the roster at this point, and this helps with that. How do they will the back end of their rotation if they sign a max guy? You need at least another three guys you're ok with playing in the finals, and one more guy you don't feel too bad about sending out to soak up spot minutes - guys like the back end of the warriors rotation would be fine for a couple of those slots, but not all of them.

Do any of their current expiring guys stay for the min? Maybe Chandler, maybe Rondo, both of whom would help. And they probably get a buyout guy or two on the level of Wes Matthews to the Pacers this year. Maybe that's enough, but it feels like they need to hit on an undrafted/second round guy as well.
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Re: Woj: AD to LA for 3 1sts, Ingram, Ball, Hart 

Post#134 » by Karmaloop » Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:16 am

TGW wrote:Oh please. No one was proposing Ball + Ingram + Hart + three firsts. NO ONE.

This was a gross overpay.


If this same package was offered prior to the deal breaking, we wouldn't have heard about how great the Pelicans did. We'd be hearing about how the Lakers' young players were garbage and the future picks were worthless.
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Re: Woj: AD to LA for 3 1sts, Ingram, Ball, Hart 

Post#135 » by Karmaloop » Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:18 am

Prospect Dong wrote:Maybe you have some quotes where you suggested you would be happy paying something like this price for Davis?


I don't. But I'm more than willing to admit there's a TON of inherent risk involved in this transaction. If they can't find that 3rd star or put the right combination of role players around LBJ/AD, this could blow up in the Lakers face. Would I have liked the Lakers to give up less? Absolutely, but I'm also not stupid enough to think the Lakers were better off without Anthony Davis.
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Re: Woj: AD to LA for 3 1sts, Ingram, Ball, Hart 

Post#136 » by Karmaloop » Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:21 am

VCfor3 wrote:Yes we went from 4+Ingram+Ball as a weak package to saying you guys got killed due to including most of your youth as well as involving most of your 1sts moving forward. I don't understand why it is hard to see why our stance on the overall package changed while our valuation of the individual parts did not. Though maybe an overpay, it still sets LAL for a potential title run so I'm not saying it won't be worth it. Those picks could end up being late and the swaps not exercised so only time will tell who won this deal (likely both teams).


Most of our youth? The only other young guy we threw in was Josh Hart. I mean, the only other young guys the Lakers had were Kyle Kuzma, Mo Wagner, and Isaac Bonga. The latter two have no value at all. If Ingram/Ball/4 is a weak package, I'm not sure how adding Hart really changes that unless you think Hart is more than a good 3&D wing. The picks are the biggest question mark, which is why I think it's asinine to say the Lakers got killed until we see how the Lakers use their cap space this offseason. IF the Lakers are able to land a premier FA to pair with LeBron and Anthony Davis, those picks are borderline worthless. And one title is worth futility for the next decade. You think Toronto has any regrets about making the Kawhi Leonard trade?
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Re: Woj: AD to LA for 3 1sts, Ingram, Ball, Hart 

Post#137 » by VCfor3 » Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:22 am

Karmaloop wrote:
TGW wrote:Oh please. No one was proposing Ball + Ingram + Hart + three firsts. NO ONE.

This was a gross overpay.


If this same package was offered prior to the deal breaking, we wouldn't have heard about how great the Pelicans did. We'd be hearing about how the Lakers' young players were garbage and the future picks were worthless.


If you had proposed the final package, everyone would have jumped to point out how teams have learned from Brooklyn's previous gamble and don't give up a bunch of unprotected future 1sts and pick swaps anymore.

Ingram, Kuzma, Ball, 4, 2020 or 2021 1st was what I thought the package was going to end up being.
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Re: Woj: AD to LA for 3 1sts, Ingram, Ball, Hart 

Post#138 » by Prospect Dong » Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:23 am

Karmaloop wrote:
Prospect Dong wrote:Maybe you have some quotes where you suggested you would be happy paying something like this price for Davis?


I don't. But I'm more than willing to admit there's a TON of inherent risk involved in this transaction. If they can't find that 3rd star or put the right combination of role players around LBJ/AD, this could blow up in the Lakers face. Would I have liked the Lakers to give up less? Absolutely, but I'm also not stupid enough to think the Lakers were better off without Anthony Davis.


Sure. But you're probably not in a position to call people out for undervaluing a [completely different] trade package then, are you? My view is that this is a mild overpay for the Lakers; I like Lebron and I hate the Lakers, so it's perfect for me personally. They go all in to land Lebron an extra title or two, and then try to keep things afloat without draft picks after he's retired.
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Re: Woj: AD to LA for 3 1sts, Ingram, Ball, Hart 

Post#139 » by Karmaloop » Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:24 am

VCfor3 wrote:If you had proposed the final package, everyone would have jumped to point out how teams have learned from Brooklyn's previous gamble and don't give up a bunch of unprotected future 1sts and pick swaps anymore.

Ingram, Kuzma, Ball, 4, 2020 or 2021 1st was what I thought the package was going to end up being.


And those Nets' picks turned out to be what exactly? James Young (2014), Jaylen Brown (2016), Markelle Fultz (2017), and Colin Sexton (2018). I keep hearing about how big of a mistake the Lakers made giving up those picks, but I keep coming back to the conclusion that some are operating under the assumption that the Lakers are handing the Pelicans a future franchise player. Odds are the exact opposite is more likely to happen. Take out the pick swaps and one of the future FRPs, and that is what I thought he deal would end up being as well.
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Re: Woj: AD to LA for 3 1sts, Ingram, Ball, Hart 

Post#140 » by VCfor3 » Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:26 am

Karmaloop wrote:
VCfor3 wrote:Yes we went from 4+Ingram+Ball as a weak package to saying you guys got killed due to including most of your youth as well as involving most of your 1sts moving forward. I don't understand why it is hard to see why our stance on the overall package changed while our valuation of the individual parts did not. Though maybe an overpay, it still sets LAL for a potential title run so I'm not saying it won't be worth it. Those picks could end up being late and the swaps not exercised so only time will tell who won this deal (likely both teams).


Most of our youth? The only other young guy we threw in was Josh Hart. I mean, the only other young guys the Lakers had were Kyle Kuzma, Mo Wagner, and Isaac Bonga. The latter two have no value at all. If Ingram/Ball/4 is a weak package, I'm not sure how adding Hart really changes that unless you think Hart is more than a good 3&D wing. The picks are the biggest question mark, which is why I think it's asinine to say the Lakers got killed until we see how the Lakers use their cap space this offseason. IF the Lakers are able to land a premier FA to pair with LeBron and Anthony Davis, those picks are borderline worthless. And one title is worth futility for the next decade. You think Toronto has any regrets about making the Kawhi Leonard trade?


Toronto didn't really give up a ton for Kawhi.

And going from Ingram/Ball/4 to a package that also includes Hart, two additional 1sts, and two pick swaps with some coming after LBJ's contract ends is a pretty size-able jump.

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