Minnesota - Washington

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Minnesota - Washington 

Post#1 » by nolian » Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:40 am

Wiggins + Dieng + FRP
x
Beal + Mahimi + Bertans

Washington change Beal in Wiggins and an useless Mahimi in Gorgui Dieng (overpaid, but useful)
in addition Minnesota acquire D.Bertans, and send top-10 protected first round pick

Minnesota:
Teague - Beal - Okogie - Covington - KAT
Napier - Culver - Bertans - Layman/KBD - Vonleh/Bell
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Re: Minnesota - Washington 

Post#2 » by Woody Allen » Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:55 am

Wiggins is hot garbage on the court. Nobody should want him.
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Re: Minnesota - Washington 

Post#3 » by HartfordWhalers » Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:02 am

I have the gap between Wiggins and Beal as more than this.
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Re: Minnesota - Washington 

Post#4 » by Domejandro » Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:08 am

I would happily turn this into a Paul George Pick-A-Palooza to pair Bradley Beal with Karl-Anthony Towns and Robert Covington.
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Re: Minnesota - Washington 

Post#5 » by penbeast0 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:20 am

That's what it would take to turn Wiggins into Beal (and with Washington tanking with this deal, we don't want a useful Dieng). 3 unprotected 1sts and 2 pick swaps and you still will get a lot of no ways from Wizards fans. This isn't remotely close.
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Re: Minnesota - Washington 

Post#6 » by Coeur » Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:34 am

Domejandro wrote:I would happily turn this into a Paul George Pick-A-Palooza to pair Bradley Beal with Karl-Anthony Towns and Robert Covington.

Beal could be interesting there. I have a lot of belief in culver. Do you have to play a pg w them?
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Re: Minnesota - Washington 

Post#7 » by jscott » Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:34 am

Yeah this isn’t at all close for Washington. MN would love it but there it literally no way to bridge this gap in value.
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Re: Minnesota - Washington 

Post#8 » by nate33 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:08 pm

Counteroffer:

Wall + FRP for KAT + Dieng

Not to be snarky, but this is basically what your proposal looks like from Washington's perspective. You are offering one of the 3 worst contracts in the league plus a first round pick and you are hoping to get back a top 15 player about to enter his prime.
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Re: Minnesota - Washington 

Post#9 » by MoneyTalks41890 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:09 pm

Dieng, Culver, Okogie, 2020 MIN 1st, 2022 MIN 1st for Beal
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Re: Minnesota - Washington 

Post#10 » by shrink » Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:36 pm

Beal is worth far more than this, Wiggins far less.
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Re: Minnesota - Washington 

Post#11 » by Dat2U » Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:38 pm

MoneyTalks41890 wrote:Dieng, Culver, Okogie, 2020 MIN 1st, 2022 MIN 1st for Beal


Culver as the best asset in a package does not get you Beal. Minnesota simply doesn't have the pieces.
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Re: Minnesota - Washington 

Post#12 » by nolian » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:08 pm

Woody Allen wrote:Wiggins is hot garbage on the court. Nobody should want him.
i don't agree
Wiggins is obviously a lot overpaid, but is a good player
Overpaid or not, he'll have a long nba-career

Mahimi isn't an nba-player, Mahimi is only a contract, like Mozgov for example

Beal is a good player, whit an honest contract, but he will ask a trade in 6-12month

Dieng is also overpaid, but the Wizards can give him the opportunity to have good number, and can be a good assett when he'll be an expiring contract

in addition TW give tu Wizards one or two FRP
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Re: Minnesota - Washington 

Post#13 » by nolian » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:11 pm

penbeast0 wrote:That's what it would take to turn Wiggins into Beal (and with Washington tanking with this deal, we don't want a useful Dieng). 3 unprotected 1sts and 2 pick swaps and you still will get a lot of no ways from Wizards fans. This isn't remotely close.

in my opinion, also Beal's value isn't remotely close to Paul George's value

moreover, the FRP of Minnesota have more value of the Clippers FRP
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Re: Minnesota - Washington 

Post#14 » by MoneyTalks41890 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:13 pm

nolian wrote:
Woody Allen wrote:Wiggins is hot garbage on the court. Nobody should want him.
i don't agree
Wiggins is obviously a lot overpaid, but is a good player
Overpaid or not, he'll have a long nba-career

Mahimi isn't an nba-player, Mahimi is only a contract, like Mozgov for example

Beal is a good player, whit an honest contract, but he will ask a trade in 6-12month

Dieng is also overpaid, but the Wizards can give him the opportunity to have good number, and can be a good assett when he'll be an expiring contract

in addition TW give tu Wizards one or two FRP


Wiggins is a really bad player. His stats have gotten worse over time, and he is a strong negative in all metrics. Someone posted a good breakdown in one of these threads.

You can hope he will get better, but that doesn't appear likely at this stage.
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Re: Minnesota - Washington 

Post#15 » by nolian » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:16 pm

MoneyTalks41890 wrote:Dieng, Culver, Okogie, 2020 MIN 1st, 2022 MIN 1st for Beal

ironic mode:


Dieng, Culver, Okogie, 2020 MIN 1st, 2022 MIN 1st + KAT + Covington + 2 pick swaps for Beal + WALL + CJMiles :lol: :lol: :lol:

and Minnesota are still at an advantage :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Minnesota - Washington 

Post#16 » by taikibansei » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:21 pm

MoneyTalks41890 wrote:
nolian wrote:
Woody Allen wrote:Wiggins is hot garbage on the court. Nobody should want him.
i don't agree
Wiggins is obviously a lot overpaid, but is a good player
Overpaid or not, he'll have a long nba-career

Mahimi isn't an nba-player, Mahimi is only a contract, like Mozgov for example

Beal is a good player, whit an honest contract, but he will ask a trade in 6-12month

Dieng is also overpaid, but the Wizards can give him the opportunity to have good number, and can be a good assett when he'll be an expiring contract

in addition TW give tu Wizards one or two FRP


Wiggins is a really bad player. His stats have gotten worse over time, and he is a strong negative in all metrics. Someone posted a good breakdown in one of these threads.

You can hope he will get better, but that doesn't appear likely at this stage.


I don't know whose breakdown you're referring to--a number of people have been saying variations of this--but here's my breakdown from the other day:

taikibansei wrote:I sometimes feel that I have stumbled into the crazy zone when reading the responses by a few members of one particular fanbase. :crazy: Let's break this down further by examining some of the myths in play:

Myth #1: Wiggins is not that bad:

Wiggins' third season is considered his peak year on offense. He was ranked 256 in TS% that season, 311 in eFG% and 110 in PER, so average or just below average at that end. However, that was probably his worst year for defense in the league--he ranked 453 (out of 468) in DBPM, 268 (out of 468) in DWS, and 460 (out of 468) in DRPM. Accordingly, and while defensive stats are not perfect, Wiggins was absolutely awful in every defensive stat out there--nearly the worst in the league in each category. He was also a poor rebounder and play-maker, and ended up ranked 325 in BPM and 461 in VORP, underlining how he was a negative contributor overall on the court.

That was Wiggins' third year and so-called "peak," a year when he ranked between 110 and 461 in the league. His defense has only marginally improved since: e.g., 473 out of 480 on DRPM for 2017-2018, and 449 out of 514 for 2018-2019. As for his offense, last season Wiggins was ranked 427 in eFG% and 421 in TS%, so he was neither "an effective" nor "an explosive" scorer--the opposite, actually. Given how he was a below-average rebounder and worse passer, it's not surprising that he ranked 364 in BPM last year and 506 in VORP. Accordingly, yes, Wiggins is that bad.

Myth #2: Wiggins was once good:

I have posted the stats here numerous times.Wiggins has ranked between 150-506 in just about every advanced stat category since his rookie year. E.g., Wiggins is the only max salary player in NBA history to have never had a season with a positive BPM or VORP over his career. His career totals so far:

BPM VORP
-2.3 -0.2 2014-15
-2.1 -0.1 2015-16
-2.7 -0.6 2016-17
-2.5 -0.4 2017-18
-2.9 -0.6 2018-19
-2.5 -1.8 Career

He has never been an "explosive scorer"--what he's been instead is a volume shooter who rarely (47.3 eFG%, .520 TS% for his career) makes his shots...while giving you poor rebounding, worse passing and close to the worst defense in the NBA. He has sucked as the first option, the second option and the third option under various coaches and while playing with point guards/centers of varying styles and skill-levels. Wiggins' sole good quality is health--the guy has missed only about 5 games over his career. Other than that, he is what he is: a bad player who hurts the team more often than he helps.

Myth #3: Westbrook hurts the play and development of big men:

Durant led the NBA in scoring four times while playing with Westbrook, coming in second (to LeBron James) in MVP voting twice, and won the MVP a third time. I.e., KD's game didn't seem to suffer at all. Last season, Paul George had his best year ever in scoring (28ppg) on the second-best efficiency (.529 eFg% and .583 TS%) of his career.

The bottom line: great players thrive next to Westbrook, and KAT is a great player. What would be the problem?

Myth #4: Westbrook's play is not conducive to wins:

I don't even know how to handle this. From his second year onward, Westbrook has led that OKC team to the playoffs every year but one, and has been among the top players in win shares, BPM and VORP every single year in the league.

People bring up how KD won a playoff series without Westbrook, but that's bs. KD never won even a single playoff series "on his own." Even in the series when Westbrook got injured, Westbrook played 30+ minutes in the first two games--both easy OKC victories (with Westbrook at +30 for his time on the court). OKC then went 2-2 in the remaining games of that series, only clinching it in Game 6 (with KD at +1 for that deciding game), and got crushed against Memphis in the next round. Ultimately, KD was just 3-6 in games in the playoffs when Westbrook did not play.

People also keep bringing up how OKC missed the playoffs in 2014-2015 when KD didn't play, forgetting that Westbrook was also injured that first month. In the 67 games Westbrook did play, OKC was 40-27--a 59.7% winning percentage, and definitely playoff-bound.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/westbru01/gamelog/2015/

Yes, Westbrook loses some matchups. Yes, his shooting last year was so bad that OKC lost some games because of it. That said, Westbrook still wins you far more games than he loses...something that has never been true of Andrew Wiggins.

Myth #5: Westbrook's salary is far worse than Wiggins' salary;

First, let's get this out of the way: Yes, Westbrook's salary is obscenely high, and he is overpaid for what he gives you. That said, at least Westbrook gives you something. Wiggins has been an absolute negative on the court each and every year, hurting the team in the process. Keep in mind that in 3 1/2 seasons of games without Butler, Wiggins has led the Twolves to a .375 W-L record, and has yet to lead the team in win shares even once (i.e., not even the season before KAT got there). Here again is Wiggins' salary moving forward:

2019-20 $27,270,000
2020-21 $29,290,000
2021-22 $31,310,000
2022-23 $33,330,000

I would understand why OKC would be against this trade. I can't understand why the Twolves would be balking, particularly as they'd be giving up the far worse player, on arguably the worse contract, and yet wouldn't be sweetening the deal with a frp.
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Re: Minnesota - Washington 

Post#17 » by nolian » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:21 pm

MoneyTalks41890 wrote:Wiggins is a really bad player. His stats have gotten worse over time, and he is a strong negative in all metrics. Someone posted a good breakdown in one of these threads.

You can hope he will get better, but that doesn't appear likely at this stage.
you may be right (the stats doesn't be always true), but Washington doesn't be in the condition to compete in 2-3 years
They can commute Wiggins in a good asset in 2-3 years, or in alternative lose Beal in 1-2 year and give money to someone else insignificant player
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Re: Minnesota - Washington 

Post#18 » by taikibansei » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:24 pm

nolian wrote:
MoneyTalks41890 wrote:Wiggins is a really bad player. His stats have gotten worse over time, and he is a strong negative in all metrics. Someone posted a good breakdown in one of these threads.

You can hope he will get better, but that doesn't appear likely at this stage.

you may be right (the stats doesn't be always true), but Washington doesn't be in the condition to compete in 2-3 years
They can commute Wiggins in a good asset in 2-3 years, or in alternative lose Beal in 1-2 year and give money to someone else insignificant player


Neither do the Twolves. Does this mean you should be looking to trade KAT now?




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Re: Minnesota - Washington 

Post#19 » by nolian » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:27 pm

nate33 wrote:Not to be snarky, but this is basically what your proposal looks like from Washington's perspective. You are offering one of the 3 worst contracts in the league plus a first round pick and you are hoping to get back a top 15 player about to enter his prime.

in the next 3 years, which can be the prospective for the Wizards?
with the not tradeble contract of John Wall, they can only tank for 3 years, and hope to trade Wall when he become an expiring

in this three years, is bettere give money to Wiggins (and accumulate FRP) or to player like C.Parsons (example)???
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Re: Minnesota - Washington 

Post#20 » by Dat2U » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:27 pm

nolian wrote:
MoneyTalks41890 wrote:Wiggins is a really bad player. His stats have gotten worse over time, and he is a strong negative in all metrics. Someone posted a good breakdown in one of these threads.

You can hope he will get better, but that doesn't appear likely at this stage.
you may be right (the stats doesn't be always true), but Washington doesn't be in the condition to compete in 2-3 years
They can commute Wiggins in a good asset in 2-3 years, or in alternative lose Beal in 1-2 year and give money to someone else insignificant player


The Wizards situation doesn't matter with respect to Wiggins.

This should be pretty simple to understand, you don't get one of the most desired assets in the league for one of the worst. There is no amount or picks or additional assets to bridge that gap.

Wiggins + whatever does not get Beal, it's not possible.

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