Tatum for Siakam

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Re: Tatum for Siakam 

Post#21 » by Duffman100 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:46 pm

hoosierdaddy34 wrote:
Duffman100 wrote:
hoosierdaddy34 wrote:Ok this is the kind of trade that both sides will fiercely say no to. Pride will get in the way of any sort of honest discussion.

As a Laker fan and a Celtics hater, and no real fan of Toronto either....

Honestly I have to say I’d rather have Tatum. I think he has the higher ceiling and can be a #1 option someday. I think Siakem has played well but I think is where he tops out. A good 2nd or 3rd option...I think Toronto has a long history of overhyping their young guys and this is just the most recent example. Siakem will be a very good player (and I expect to be come at by Toronto fans for saying that) while great player isn’t off the table for Tatum.

Just my two cents.


Well the funny thing is that Siakam was already a good #2 option on a championship team... So has he topped out as that?


He is 25 and at about full development. And it’s going to be a different beast next year when he is the #1 option. Heavy wears the crown. He probably will struggle in that role and people are going to wildly overreact In the other direction. Kawhi cast a really long shadow and made it a lot easier on a lot of dudes. They won’t have that this year.


Sure, #1 option he's going to face challenges.

But you said he tops out as a #3 maybe a #2 option and that Raptor fans overhype their prospects. He's ALREADY a proven #2 option on a championship team...
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Re: Tatum for Siakam 

Post#22 » by hoosierdaddy34 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:53 pm

Duffman100 wrote:
hoosierdaddy34 wrote:
Duffman100 wrote:
Well the funny thing is that Siakam was already a good #2 option on a championship team... So has he topped out as that?


He is 25 and at about full development. And it’s going to be a different beast next year when he is the #1 option. Heavy wears the crown. He probably will struggle in that role and people are going to wildly overreact In the other direction. Kawhi cast a really long shadow and made it a lot easier on a lot of dudes. They won’t have that this year.


Sure, #1 option he's going to face challenges.

But you said he tops out as a #3 maybe a #2 option and that Raptor fans overhype their prospects. He's ALREADY a proven #2 option on a championship team...


Typically it takes 2 franchise level talents to win a championship. The fact Toronto caught a very injured Golden St team doesn’t change that. Enjoy your championship but that model isn’t going to be one for success in future years. Since I don’t feel Siakem is a franchise level player, to get back there he absolutely may need to be a 3rd option on a team.
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Re: Tatum for Siakam 

Post#23 » by cl2117 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:56 pm

Too deeply invested in Tatum to swap him for Spicy P. Both are blue chip and I think their value is on par. Can't imagine either team being interested in making the swap, not enough need on either end to balance rosters.

Would rather move Hayward to OKC to try and get Adams if we are trying to move our wing glut for better fitting pieces. Ride with Tatum as a small ball 4.
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Re: Tatum for Siakam 

Post#24 » by euroleague » Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:13 pm

no way from Cs.

Siakam is 25, and while he will develop his skills, it will mostly be fine-tuning at this point as he's already in his athletic peak. He's also going to get paid soon.

Tatum is like 20 years old - he hasn't even fully developed physically yet, let alone acclimated to the NBA.

Both players can develop a ways, but Tatum hasn't even entered his athletic peak. He has 12 years of high level basketball, assuming no injuries, at a minimum.
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Re: Tatum for Siakam 

Post#25 » by Duffman100 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:36 pm

hoosierdaddy34 wrote:
Duffman100 wrote:
hoosierdaddy34 wrote:
He is 25 and at about full development. And it’s going to be a different beast next year when he is the #1 option. Heavy wears the crown. He probably will struggle in that role and people are going to wildly overreact In the other direction. Kawhi cast a really long shadow and made it a lot easier on a lot of dudes. They won’t have that this year.


Sure, #1 option he's going to face challenges.

But you said he tops out as a #3 maybe a #2 option and that Raptor fans overhype their prospects. He's ALREADY a proven #2 option on a championship team...


Typically it takes 2 franchise level talents to win a championship. The fact Toronto caught a very injured Golden St team doesn’t change that. Enjoy your championship but that model isn’t going to be one for success in future years. Since I don’t feel Siakem is a franchise level player, to get back there he absolutely may need to be a 3rd option on a team.


So many asteriks...
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Re: Tatum for Siakam 

Post#26 » by rugbyrugger23 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:46 pm

euroleague wrote:no way from Cs.

Siakam is 25, and while he will develop his skills, it will mostly be fine-tuning at this point as he's already in his athletic peak. He's also going to get paid soon.

Tatum is like 20 years old - he hasn't even fully developed physically yet, let alone acclimated to the NBA.

Both players can develop a ways, but Tatum hasn't even entered his athletic peak. He has 12 years of high level basketball, assuming no injuries, at a minimum.

A bunch going on here (meaning your version "facts" to make your reasoning)...

Tatum is 21. Tatum has only 1 more year of rookie controlled contract vs. Siakam -- and for this year Tatum is over 3x as expensive as Siakam.

Also, everything you printed about Siakam being in/near his prime is an argument more for this trade working for Celtics than not (and making assumption Tatum is not in/near prime).

Siakam not only as OP pointed out balances the Celtics roster (Celtics with a glut of wings), but if he is truly is in/near his prime, that matches up with Celtics roster more too. Walker and Hayward are 29. Smart is 25. Brown is 22/23 soon (and in/near his prime).

Seems like Ainge is ready to make a move now. And Siakam as you say is more ready now.
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Re: Tatum for Siakam 

Post#27 » by euroleague » Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:51 pm

rugbyrugger23 wrote:
euroleague wrote:no way from Cs.

Siakam is 25, and while he will develop his skills, it will mostly be fine-tuning at this point as he's already in his athletic peak. He's also going to get paid soon.

Tatum is like 20 years old - he hasn't even fully developed physically yet, let alone acclimated to the NBA.

Both players can develop a ways, but Tatum hasn't even entered his athletic peak. He has 12 years of high level basketball, assuming no injuries, at a minimum.

A bunch going on here (meaning your version "facts" to make your reasoning)...

Tatum is 21. Tatum has only 1 more year of rookie controlled contract vs. Siakam -- and for this year Tatum is over 3x as expensive as Siakam.

Also, everything you printed about Siakam being in/near his prime is an argument more for this trade working for Celtics than not (and making assumption Tatum is not in/near prime).

Siakam not only as OP pointed out balances the Celtics roster (Celtics with a glut of wings), but if he is truly is in/near his prime, that matches up with Celtics roster more too. Walker and Hayward are 29. Smart is 25. Brown is 22/23 soon (and in/near his prime).

Seems like Ainge is ready to make a move now. And Siakam as you say is more ready now.


Your logic is really bad - Tatum and Brown are the future. The others are just there to transition while still competing.

Trading their future for a player incapable of being a first option, arguably not better than Tatum, and 5 years older makes absolutely no sense.

They aren’t building around Hayward, Kemba Walker, and Marcus Smart. They are building around Tatum/Brown
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Re: Tatum for Siakam 

Post#28 » by rugbyrugger23 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:58 pm

euroleague wrote:
rugbyrugger23 wrote:
euroleague wrote:no way from Cs.

Siakam is 25, and while he will develop his skills, it will mostly be fine-tuning at this point as he's already in his athletic peak. He's also going to get paid soon.

Tatum is like 20 years old - he hasn't even fully developed physically yet, let alone acclimated to the NBA.

Both players can develop a ways, but Tatum hasn't even entered his athletic peak. He has 12 years of high level basketball, assuming no injuries, at a minimum.

A bunch going on here (meaning your version "facts" to make your reasoning)...

Tatum is 21. Tatum has only 1 more year of rookie controlled contract vs. Siakam -- and for this year Tatum is over 3x as expensive as Siakam.

Also, everything you printed about Siakam being in/near his prime is an argument more for this trade working for Celtics than not (and making assumption Tatum is not in/near prime).

Siakam not only as OP pointed out balances the Celtics roster (Celtics with a glut of wings), but if he is truly is in/near his prime, that matches up with Celtics roster more too. Walker and Hayward are 29. Smart is 25. Brown is 22/23 soon (and in/near his prime).

Seems like Ainge is ready to make a move now. And Siakam as you say is more ready now.


Your logic is really bad - Tatum and Brown are the future. The others are just there to transition while still competing.

Trading their future for a player incapable of being a first option, arguably not better than Tatum, and 5 years older makes absolutely no sense.

They aren’t building around Hayward, Kemba Walker, and Marcus Smart. They are building around Tatum/Brown

Ok, why lie to try and make your narrative? Siakam is only 4 years older! And with that, as many will tell you, he is a very young (in basketball wear and tear) 25 being he started basketball at almost 17yo. So why you keeping bringing up (the wrong) age as some big argument I don't know why -- more so when the delta is 4 years of both young players (not like saying a 27 to a 31yo who can be considered old for NBA purposes.

Tatum and Brown are the Celtics future. And after this trade it would be Brown and Siakam. But Celtics get added advantage of player -- as you proclaim -- more ready now and in his prime. Which matches up better with everyone NOW on the roster AND Celtics still have a promising future with Brown and Siakam.

That has to make sense to you???
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Re: Tatum for Siakam 

Post#29 » by euroleague » Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:01 pm

rugbyrugger23 wrote:
euroleague wrote:
rugbyrugger23 wrote:A bunch going on here (meaning your version "facts" to make your reasoning)...

Tatum is 21. Tatum has only 1 more year of rookie controlled contract vs. Siakam -- and for this year Tatum is over 3x as expensive as Siakam.

Also, everything you printed about Siakam being in/near his prime is an argument more for this trade working for Celtics than not (and making assumption Tatum is not in/near prime).

Siakam not only as OP pointed out balances the Celtics roster (Celtics with a glut of wings), but if he is truly is in/near his prime, that matches up with Celtics roster more too. Walker and Hayward are 29. Smart is 25. Brown is 22/23 soon (and in/near his prime).

Seems like Ainge is ready to make a move now. And Siakam as you say is more ready now.


Your logic is really bad - Tatum and Brown are the future. The others are just there to transition while still competing.

Trading their future for a player incapable of being a first option, arguably not better than Tatum, and 5 years older makes absolutely no sense.

They aren’t building around Hayward, Kemba Walker, and Marcus Smart. They are building around Tatum/Brown

Ok, why lie to try and make your narrative? Siakam is only 4 years older! And with that, as many will tell you, he is a very young (in basketball wear and tear) 25 being he started basketball at almost 17yo. So why you keeping bringing up (the wrong) age as some big argument I don't know why -- more so when the delta is 4 years of both young players (not like saying a 27 to a 31yo who can be considered old for NBA purposes.

Tatum and Brown are the Celtics future. And after this trade it would be Brown and Siakam. But Celtics get added advantage of player -- as you proclaim -- more ready now and in his prime. Which matches up better with everyone on the now AND Celtics still have a promising future with Brown and Siakam.

That has to make sense to you???

Why do you keep saying ‘more ready now’ - in his prime now means he is nearer his peak, and still not a better player.

Tatum is better at 21 than Siakam at 25, and has a lot more growing to do. Would you trade young Lebron for prime Paul Pierce, because Paul Pierce is more ready to compete now?

The argument is just baseless
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Re: Tatum for Siakam 

Post#30 » by pacers33granger » Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:05 pm

euroleague wrote:
Tatum is better at 21 than Siakam at 25, and has a lot more growing to do. Would you trade young Lebron for prime Paul Pierce, because Paul Pierce is more ready to compete now?

The argument is just baseless


Tatum was not better last year than Siakam. And are you really arguing that he is on par with a 21 year old Lebron? Pierce also made 9 all star games from age 25 on (only 1 prior, at age 24), so I'm not sure where all this junk about Siakam being a near finished product at 25 is coming from. Nor am I understanding why Tatum has 1st option potential but the guy who was a 2nd option on a title team doesn't.
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Re: Tatum for Siakam 

Post#31 » by rugbyrugger23 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:07 pm

euroleague wrote:
rugbyrugger23 wrote:
euroleague wrote:
Your logic is really bad - Tatum and Brown are the future. The others are just there to transition while still competing.

Trading their future for a player incapable of being a first option, arguably not better than Tatum, and 5 years older makes absolutely no sense.

They aren’t building around Hayward, Kemba Walker, and Marcus Smart. They are building around Tatum/Brown

Ok, why lie to try and make your narrative? Siakam is only 4 years older! And with that, as many will tell you, he is a very young (in basketball wear and tear) 25 being he started basketball at almost 17yo. So why you keeping bringing up (the wrong) age as some big argument I don't know why -- more so when the delta is 4 years of both young players (not like saying a 27 to a 31yo who can be considered old for NBA purposes.

Tatum and Brown are the Celtics future. And after this trade it would be Brown and Siakam. But Celtics get added advantage of player -- as you proclaim -- more ready now and in his prime. Which matches up better with everyone on the now AND Celtics still have a promising future with Brown and Siakam.

That has to make sense to you???

Why do you keep saying ‘more ready now’ - in his prime now means he is nearer his peak, and still not a better player.

Tatum is better at 21 than Siakam at 25, and has a lot more growing to do. Would you trade young Lebron for prime Paul Pierce, because Paul Pierce is more ready to compete now?

The argument is just baseless

First of all, you are the person who said Siakam was in his athletic peak NOW and Tatum was NOT. Look up to your first post. Not even saying I agree with that or nor, simply quoting you.

And Siakam is more ready now. Being he has on his resume a championship and proven to be a successful 2nd/3rd option on a championship team out of the East. Sorry that Tatum doesn't have that on his resume.

Also, I wouldn't go around saying Tatum is better than Siakam -- like that is a forgone conclusion. Because it sure isn't.
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Re: Tatum for Siakam 

Post#32 » by dakomish23 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:33 pm

I’d take that and run if I’m TOR. I love Siakam but I think the ceiling is higher for Tatum.
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Re: Tatum for Siakam 

Post#33 » by euroleague » Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:49 pm

pacers33granger wrote:
euroleague wrote:
Tatum is better at 21 than Siakam at 25, and has a lot more growing to do. Would you trade young Lebron for prime Paul Pierce, because Paul Pierce is more ready to compete now?

The argument is just baseless


Tatum was not better last year than Siakam. And are you really arguing that he is on par with a 21 year old Lebron? Pierce also made 9 all star games from age 25 on (only 1 prior, at age 24), so I'm not sure where all this junk about Siakam being a near finished product at 25 is coming from. Nor am I understanding why Tatum has 1st option potential but the guy who was a 2nd option on a title team doesn't.

Did I say Tatum is on par with Lebron? Or even hint at it? Did I say Siakam is on par in his career with Pierce?

If you read my posts, I say Siakam is in his athletic peak. Tatum was arguably the first option on a ECF team that wasn't that lost in game 7. Both of those players (Pierce and LBJ) were first options, however the main point is that Siakam clearly has never been the 1st option on a team before. Is he capable? Sure. Would a team with Siakam as the best offensive player win a ring? It would have to be really stacked.

Tatum has shown a set of skills and athletic ability, when he was still a teenager, that is Kobe-esque. At freshly turned 20, he etched his name in rookie record books. Kyrie obviously impeded his progress - I wouldn't call Kyrie a good team player, but I wouldn't call Kawhi one either. The difference is mainly that Kawhi at least operates within the team's offense, while Kyrie hijacks it.

If you have two similar level players, with one of them 4 years younger, it's pretty obvious who is more valuable.
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Re: Tatum for Siakam 

Post#34 » by nate33 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:56 pm

MoneyTalks41890 wrote:I'd say on value it's pretty close. Which probably means both teams like their guy better and don't make a move. Interesting, though.

Agreed. I kinda like the deal as an impartial observer.

I think Tatum has an upside as a legit first option scorer. He's only 21 and 4 years younger than Siakam. Toronto gambles that he can become a centerpiece in the future. Toronto is going to have to step back and reload so they can afford to be patient and develop Tatum.

Siakam is currently the better player but I think he maxes out as a second-fiddle uber-role player type of guy in the Shawn Marion/Draymond Green mold. You definitely need guys like him to win, but they can't be your best player. Boston's could potentially start contention immediately with the fully developed Siakam on board. He really fits their need since he is a true PF and an excellent front court defender who can also slash a bit and get to the FT line.

Whether or not Boston needs to include extra incentive really depends on one's assessment of Tatum's ultimate upside. Was his disappointing second season a fluke, or was he just overhyped in his first season?
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Re: Tatum for Siakam 

Post#35 » by pacers33granger » Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:39 pm

euroleague wrote:
Did I say Tatum is on par with Lebron? Or even hint at it? Did I say Siakam is on par in his career with Pierce?


You heavily implied it. Otherwise, the comparison is pointless. You could have just as easily used Pierce and Rudy Gay as comparisons, but that points to the opposite result you're advocating for.

euroleague wrote:If you read my posts, I say Siakam is in his athletic peak. Tatum was arguably the first option on a ECF team that wasn't that lost in game 7. Both of those players (Pierce and LBJ) were first options, however the main point is that Siakam clearly has never been the 1st option on a team before. Is he capable? Sure. Would a team with Siakam as the best offensive player win a ring? It would have to be really stacked.


I don't see how 25 is someone's athletic peak. There's typically a few more years of growth. And I do not think Siakam can be the best offensive player on a title team, but there's no evidence that Tatum can either.

euroleague wrote:Tatum has shown a set of skills and athletic ability, when he was still a teenager, that is Kobe-esque. At freshly turned 20, he etched his name in rookie record books. Kyrie obviously impeded his progress - I wouldn't call Kyrie a good team player, but I wouldn't call Kawhi one either. The difference is mainly that Kawhi at least operates within the team's offense, while Kyrie hijacks it.


Tatum really has not shown that kind of offensive skill. Very skilled no doubt, but it's hyperbole to say he's shown Kobe-esque abilities on that end.

euroleague wrote:If you have two similar level players, with one of them 4 years younger, it's pretty obvious who is more valuable.


I don't think they're similar level players. One had an outstanding breakout season culminating in a title as the 2nd option. The other had an underwhelming regression that, while still good, had people questioning the ceiling of the player and most realizing they need to pump the brakes on expectations.
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Re: Tatum for Siakam 

Post#36 » by CoachD » Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:07 pm

This debate is still raging...

OK
So here's how I see it

Pascal is a PF that can play small 5, and big 3 (he did all of those successfully in the playoffs).

He is great at finishing the break, and is possibly the fastest in the league at his natural position and one of the fastest overall.
He added the dimension last season of playing as a Point-Forward and initiating the break off the bounce.

He is a rapidly improving passer ... a drastically improved outside shooter, and is now adding a mid range pull up game. His float game is elite, as is his ability to spin off either shoulder and score from the mid or low post.

Then there's the fact that he guards all 5 spots at a high level.

We did a really good job on Draymond in the finals....
We also saw in the 2018 playoffs, that when the team made the choice to move Siakam to guarding John Wall, the series compltely changed. Without that change, the Raps lose that series.

He's essentially a poor man's Giannis.

Tatum is a great young player. He plays really hard on defense, can play both forward spots, and has a huge motor. He showed reluctance this past year in attacking the rim, and settled for a lot of mid-range 2s.

At the end of the day, I just think a guy like Tatum is more common, whereas a skillset like Siakam in that size frame is very rare,

I know that last summer, if this question had been asked NOBODY outside of Toronto hardcores would pick Siakam. They would have thought you were insane...

And, I believe, a year from now, people will have come all the way around, and the gross majority of the public opinion will be that Siakam is the CLEAR choice
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Re: Tatum for Siakam 

Post#37 » by euroleague » Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:34 pm

pacers33granger wrote:You heavily implied it. Otherwise, the comparison is pointless. You could have just as easily used Pierce and Rudy Gay as comparisons, but that points to the opposite result you're advocating for.

Rudy Gay doesn't make any sense. We saw LBJ and Pierce go head to head in 2008, and they were rivals as stated by LBJ himself. The primary difference was Pierce was many years older and not nearly the defender. Pierce won the championship, LBJ got eliminated in the ECSF.

Rudy Gay has absolutely no parallels with this situation. Nowhere was the skill level equated, except for your imagination, however the situation is pretty obviously relevant.

pacers33granger wrote:I don't see how 25 is someone's athletic peak. There's typically a few more years of growth. And I do not think Siakam can be the best offensive player on a title team, but there's no evidence that Tatum can either.

At 25 your quick-twitch muscles are no longer developing. You can gain endurance, but most track and field athletes focusing on explosive and short-distance related events peak around 24-25. Tatum in his rookie

pacers33granger wrote:Tatum really has not shown that kind of offensive skill. Very skilled no doubt, but it's hyperbole to say he's shown Kobe-esque abilities on that end.

Watching Kobe early in his career, it's definitely a safe comparison. Kobe was not this good in his rookie year, or even close. They have very similar skill sets, albeit different mind sets.

pacers33granger wrote:I don't think they're similar level players. One had an outstanding breakout season culminating in a title as the 2nd option. The other had an underwhelming regression that, while still good, had people questioning the ceiling of the player and most realizing they need to pump the brakes on expectations.

Siakam had a great season, but Tatum's playoff run was arguably better than Siakam's. Siakam averaged .5ppg more on 4% lower TS as the second option than Tatum did as the highest scorer on his team.

Siakam struggled in the playoffs, but nobody pumped any breaks because Fred VanVleet and Lowry stepped up huge. Siakam wasn't the second option for much of the playoffs, or even the 3rd best player. Siakam averaged 14ppg on 47% TS against the Bucks and 19ppg on 53% TS against the 76ers. His defense wasn't that exceptional. It's exciting how much he's improved since last year, but to say he was the second best player on the Raptors during the playoffs is a giant stretch.

Tatum, meanwhile, was the first option and second best player on the Celtics. Just because they didn't incorporate Kyrie and Hayward in successfully, doesn't mean pump the breaks until he's less valuable than Siakam. Ben Simmons vs Tatum was a reasonable debate, although it seems like Simmons projects higher. Simmons is clearly better than Siakam already, but Tatum is pretty close to Siakam by most measures.
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Re: Tatum for Siakam 

Post#38 » by BoogieTime » Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:50 pm

Not a fan of either, relatively. Siakam is a gangly, awkward player with little wiggle. I think he had a particular year that everything went right. Tatum is that ISO sf type that doesn’t mix with team basketball/making others better. Guess I’d go Siakam, barely
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Re: Tatum for Siakam 

Post#39 » by Who-rod » Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:16 pm

Both teams probably pass, although I think Toronto might be tempted.

The Celtics pass because for this iteration of their team to succeed, they not only need Tatum to be much better than he was last year, but they also need Tatum to be much better than Siakam was last year.
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Re: Tatum for Siakam 

Post#40 » by Crives » Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:25 pm

I would much rather have Siakam..

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