Crazy 4 Teamer Where Everyone Wins

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Re: Crazy 4 Teamer Where Everyone Wins 

Post#41 » by shrink » Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:41 pm

Karmaloop wrote:
BBallFreak wrote:You're welcome to your opinion. I obviously feel you have the wrong idea. A team could do a hell of a lot worse than talking a couple of these guys, plus cap flexibility, for a disgruntled star.


The problem is the last few disgruntled stars (i.e. Anthony Davis, Paul George, etc.) all brought back players with SIGNIFICANTLY more production. In the Anthony Davis trade, the Pelicans got Brandon Ingram (18/5/3) and Lonzo Ball (10/5/5). In the most recent Paul George trade, the Thunder got SGA (11/3/3) and Gallinari (20/6/3). In the previous Kawhi Leonard deal, the Spurs got DeRozan (23/4/5). In the two most recent disgruntled stars, the Lakers and Clippers gave up a COMBINED 8 FRPs and 3 pick swaps. Miami can't even trade a FRP until 2025 at the very earliest. A package of Dragic/Leoanrd and your young players and a very distant FRP doesn't get you a disgruntled star IMO. It gets you that second tier star (i.e. DeMar DeRozan, Mike Conley, etc.) IMO.

Without talking about the overall value of this particular trade, I think a player’s fame is indeed a significant part of any trade. I like Bam, I like Winslow, but they are not well-known to the typical, less-informed couple that buy a pair of tickets for Friday Date Night. GM’s not only need to do trades that help the team in talent or direction, but they need to win the press conference too, explaining why they traded a well-known star (even a guy like Chris Paul, with a highly negative contract) for a bunch of players that casual fans do not know. OKC has an advantage here, because Thunder fans don’t have the attachment to their player that a star would have with several years playing for the home team. Presti did well in the Westbrook trade in both arenas - a big return for a negative contract, plus everyone knows Chris Paul.

EDIT: I wouldn’t do the deal for MIA, but it may be impossible to get a return that OKC can accept. However, I could be under-estimating Presti, because I would have said the same about Westbrook.
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Re: Crazy 4 Teamer Where Everyone Wins 

Post#42 » by BBallFreak » Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:41 pm

Karmaloop wrote:
BBallFreak wrote:You're welcome to your opinion. I obviously feel you have the wrong idea. A team could do a hell of a lot worse than talking a couple of these guys, plus cap flexibility, for a disgruntled star.


The problem is the last few disgruntled stars (i.e. Anthony Davis, Paul George, etc.) all brought back players with SIGNIFICANTLY more production. In the Anthony Davis trade, the Pelicans got Brandon Ingram (18/5/3) and Lonzo Ball (10/5/5). In the most recent Paul George trade, the Thunder got SGA (11/3/3) and Gallinari (20/6/3). In the previous Kawhi Leonard deal, the Spurs got DeRozan (23/4/5). In the two most recent disgruntled stars, the Lakers and Clippers gave up a COMBINED 8 FRPs and 3 pick swaps. Miami can't even trade a FRP until 2025 at the very earliest. A package of Dragic/Leoanrd and your young players and a very distant FRP doesn't get you a disgruntled star IMO. It gets you that second tier star (i.e. DeMar DeRozan, Mike Conley, etc.) IMO.
Gee, I didn't realize Miami's youth was limited to exactly what they did last season, and only to what they did last season. Can't grow, cause Karmaloop won't allow it. Guess Herro won't average a point in the NBA, Bam won't continue to improve over his starting stint last year (12, 9, and 3 assists), Winslow can't possibly average more playing with a guy like Jimmy Butler. We're done in Miami! The sky is falling!

I also didn't realize that a star player has no leverage in where they go. Or that circumstances can dictate a trade package. Like, the Clippers had no reason to actually be desperate to land Paul George, huh? You don't think maybe they gave up all that they did because he came as a package deal with a certain free agent?

Come on man, this is sad...
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Re: Crazy 4 Teamer Where Everyone Wins 

Post#43 » by Karmaloop » Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:49 pm

BBallFreak wrote:Gee, I didn't realize Miami's youth was limited to exactly what they did last season, and only to what they did last season. Can't grow, cause Karmaloop won't allow it. Guess Herro won't average a point in the NBA, Bam won't continue to improve over his starting stint last year (12, 9, and 3 assists), Winslow can't possibly average more playing with a guy like Jimmy Butler. We're done in Miami! The sky is falling!

I also didn't realize that a star player has no leverage in where they go. Or that circumstances can dictate a trade package. Like, the Clippers had no reason to actually be desperate to land Paul George, huh? You don't think maybe they gave up all that they did because he came as a package deal with a certain free agent?

Come on man, this is sad...


You're trying to wrap two VERY different arguments up in one bow, and trying to present it as one. Right now, what has Herro proven? He was the 13th overall pick in an okay-to-weak draft. He wasn't even particularly great at Kentucky last year. Right now, their value is limited because they haven't done a damn thing in the NBA. That doesn't mean they can't potentially be more valuable a year from now, but right now when you're gauging their value you can't use what you think they'll be worth a year from now to justify your value on them. What happens if they don't develop? Then you just traded your star player for a flop. There's a limit to how much future value comes into play. Otherwise, we're going to see every young player being dealt for premium. LIS, the most recent disgruntled stars were traded for MULTIPLE FRPs with limited protection and more young players who had shown more in the NBA.

There are enough teams in the NBA who could IMO give a similar (or better) package that the Heat could. The Heat can't trade a FRP until 2025 and their young players aren't needle movers (at this point). Kawhi Leonard and Paul George (original request) went to Toronto and Oklahoma City respectively. The two most recent trades of disgruntled stars went for packages that had some of the most draft compensation given out in a single deal. If you're not seeing how the two are dissimilar I can't help you show it.
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Re: Crazy 4 Teamer Where Everyone Wins 

Post#44 » by Heat3 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:51 pm

As a fan I don’t want Paul at all. I don’t think the organization wants him either. There is no realistic sweetener that can be thrown in to make me change my mind. The only leverage we need is the ability to say “no”.

As for Bam. He may never be an all star, but calling him an “old school center”? Either you’ve never watched Bam play or never watched old school centers play. Probably both.
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Re: Crazy 4 Teamer Where Everyone Wins 

Post#45 » by BBallFreak » Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:53 pm

Karmaloop wrote:
BBallFreak wrote:Gee, I didn't realize Miami's youth was limited to exactly what they did last season, and only to what they did last season. Can't grow, cause Karmaloop won't allow it. Guess Herro won't average a point in the NBA, Bam won't continue to improve over his starting stint last year (12, 9, and 3 assists), Winslow can't possibly average more playing with a guy like Jimmy Butler. We're done in Miami! The sky is falling!

I also didn't realize that a star player has no leverage in where they go. Or that circumstances can dictate a trade package. Like, the Clippers had no reason to actually be desperate to land Paul George, huh? You don't think maybe they gave up all that they did because he came as a package deal with a certain free agent?

Come on man, this is sad...


You're trying to wrap two VERY different arguments up in one bow, and trying to present it as one. Right now, what has Herro proven? He was the 13th overall pick in an okay-to-weak draft. He wasn't even particularly great at Kentucky last year. Right now, their value is limited because they haven't done a damn thing in the NBA. That doesn't mean they can't potentially be more valuable a year from now, but right now when you're gauging their value you can't use what you think they'll be worth a year from now to justify your value on them. What happens if they don't develop? Then you just traded your star player for a flop. There's a limit to how much future value comes into play. Otherwise, we're going to see every young player being dealt for premium. LIS, the most recent disgruntled stars were traded for MULTIPLE FRPs with limited protection and more young players who had shown more in the NBA.

There are enough teams in the NBA who could IMO give a similar (or better) package that the Heat could. The Heat can't trade a FRP until 2025 and their young players aren't needle movers (at this point). Kawhi Leonard and Paul George (original request) went to Toronto and Oklahoma City respectively. The two most recent trades of disgruntled stars went for packages that had some of the most draft compensation given out in a single deal. If you're not seeing how the two are dissimilar I can't help you show it.
A lot of factors go into a trade of a star player during a season, including where they want to go. It takes one guy saying trade me to Miami, and those middling prospects you lament become worth a hell of a lot more. Do you really think the best Philly couple get for Butler was Josh Richardson, or did Miami have some leverage there?

Again, I will reiterate, devaluing our young players is sad.
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Re: Crazy 4 Teamer Where Everyone Wins 

Post#46 » by BBallFreak » Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:55 pm

Heat3 wrote:As a fan I don’t want Paul at all. I don’t think the organization wants him either. There is no realistic sweetener that can be thrown in to make me change my mind. The only leverage we need is the ability to say “no”.

As for Bam. He may never be an all star, but calling him an “old school center”? Either you’ve never watched Bam play or never watched old school centers play. Probably both.
Perfectly stated.

None of us here are actually GM's but this forum is about what we'd do as GM's. I'm much more comfortable rolling with what we have than putting a penny into Chris Paul...

Edit: Bam as an old school center. Lol
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Re: Crazy 4 Teamer Where Everyone Wins 

Post#47 » by Karmaloop » Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:04 pm

BBallFreak wrote:A lot of factors go into a trade of a star player during a season, including where they want to go. It takes one guy saying trade me to Miami, and those middling prospects you lament become worth a hell of a lot more. Do you really think the best Philly couple get for Butler was Josh Richardson, or did Miami have some leverage there?

Again, I will reiterate, devaluing our young players is sad.


Let's make one thing very clear. Just because I don't share your same rosy outlook on the Heat young players doesn't mean I'm devaluing them. Secondly, just because a player demands a trade to a specific team doesn't magically increase that teams' young players. It diminishes the player whose asking for a trade, but the other teams' players don't magically gain in value. Brandon Ingram and Lonzo Ball didn't suddenly become more valuable simply because Anthony Davis demanded a trade to the Lakers. SGA didn't suddenly gain more value when Paul George asked to be dealt to the Clippers. Philadelphia was about to lose Jimmy Butler for nothing as a FA. Instead, they negotiated a S&T with Miami for Josh Richardson who helps the Sixers roster. That had nothing to do with Miami having leverage. That had everything to do with the fact that that the Heat had no leverage because they were over the cap. For Philadelphia, it was either get something (i.e Josh Richardson) in a S&T or watch Jimmy Butler go somewhere and receiving nothing in return. Are the Sixers better off with nothing in return or Josh Richardson?

Let's do a fun little exercise. Rank the young players (not the picks) in the last two deals (Anthony Davis and Paul George), and the Heat young players from most value to least value. Here's my rankings with reasoning.

Brandon Ingram (Most production, least team control)
SGA (best combination of upside, production, and team control)
Lonzo Ball (more production, less team control than SGA)
Tyler Herro (more upside and team control, less production)
Bam Adebayo (limited upside, more production)
Josh Hart (limited upside, more production)
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Re: Crazy 4 Teamer Where Everyone Wins 

Post#48 » by penbeast0 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:16 pm

rugbyrugger23 wrote:Wolves Trade: Wiggins + Okogie
Wolves Receive: Waiters + J. Johnson

Wizards Trade: Wall + Mahinmi + Miles (or Bertans, Riley chooses)
Wizards Receive: Wiggins + Adams + Dragic

Heat Trade: Dragic + JJ + Waiters
Heat Receive: Paul + Miles + Nader (OKC small filler)

Thunder Trade: Adams + Paul + Nader (or Ferguson as value filler)
Thunder Receive: Wall + Mahinmi + Okogie + Huge Cap Relief

Wolves Why: move on from Wiggins at cost of Okogie — but get playable vets and cap flexibility 2020 when JJ+Waiters+Dieng expire.

Wizards Why: make Beal happy by being a good team in East right away (vs. bottom feeder). Add x2 24/25yo players that could actually be a core trio with Beal. They could be a consolidation trade away from a playoff team — maybe 2nd round playoff team.

Heat Why: does Paul and Butler make them a deep playoff team?

OKC Why: move Paul for huge cap flexibility. Presti plays the long game with Wall — let him heal and hope he can be flipped for assets when he is proven healthy and a couple years have ticked off that contract.


So, for the Wiz, they still have no NBA ready PF (especially if Riley takes Bertrans), Wiggins at SF who has been a net negative his whole career, Adams now blocking the development of Thomas Bryant (the most NBA ready player outside of Beal on the current roster). It may clear the contracts earlier but unless Dragic plays at an All-Star level and someone steps up at the 4, this still looks like a roster that misses the playoffs. I don't see it as helping us either contend or tank; instead it puts us back to being a treadmill team hoping for Dragic to be healthy and talented enough to get us to a first round loss.

Rather keep Wall and hope he comes back next year as a good NBA player; don't see Wiggins developing into one. I understand the fear of losing Beal but this isn't a good answer.
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Re: Crazy 4 Teamer Where Everyone Wins 

Post#49 » by Slim Tubby » Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:01 pm

Heat3 wrote:As a fan I don’t want Paul at all. I don’t think the organization wants him either. There is no realistic sweetener that can be thrown in to make me change my mind. The only leverage we need is the ability to say “no”.

As for Bam. He may never be an all star, but calling him an “old school center”? Either you’ve never watched Bam play or never watched old school centers play. Probably both.


If I'm the Heat, I wouldn't even trade Bam, Winslow or Herro straight up for Paul regardless of salary matching. Paul is a shell of himself, injury-prone and has the 2nd worst contract in the league behind Wall. Regardless of how General Soreness pans out in MIA, those three (3) guys are your future and on salary-controlled contracts. And how many more wins would Paul really provide compared to Dragic? The Heat should remain patient and wait for the next top star who eventually wants to be elsewhere. I still feel like OKC will have to pay assets to move Paul and not gain any meaningful value back other than expiring deals. Waiters and Johnson is all that I would offer and even then, Paul's contract would probably prevent me from sanctioning even that kind of deal. Clear cap space and then be selective on who to add down the road.
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Re: Crazy 4 Teamer Where Everyone Wins 

Post#50 » by cjmcallist » Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:56 pm

BBallFreak wrote:
Heat3 wrote:As a fan I don’t want Paul at all. I don’t think the organization wants him either. There is no realistic sweetener that can be thrown in to make me change my mind. The only leverage we need is the ability to say “no”.

As for Bam. He may never be an all star, but calling him an “old school center”? Either you’ve never watched Bam play or never watched old school centers play. Probably both.
Perfectly stated.

None of us here are actually GM's but this forum is about what we'd do as GM's. I'm much more comfortable rolling with what we have than putting a penny into Chris Paul...

Edit: Bam as an old school center. Lol



OKC fan here, but more interested in your take on what the Heat are looking to do.

I guess I tagged Miami as a Paul destination because I keep hearing about them star hunting to take one more swing at a 'ship before Pat Riley retires in the next few years (<2-3?). If that's true, it feels logical that Miami would be willing to take a chance on Chris Paul. But, what I'm seeing in the boards on a couple different threads is a definitive no, that the focus is on letting the young players grow and shooting for a FA in 2021.

It's just not the timeline I thought Miami was on. Are the reports on Miami's star-acquiring mentality off base, or is Riles waiting longer to retire than I'd assuming? Curious to get your thoughts.
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Re: Crazy 4 Teamer Where Everyone Wins 

Post#51 » by BBallFreak » Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:25 pm

cjmcallist wrote:
BBallFreak wrote:
Heat3 wrote:As a fan I don’t want Paul at all. I don’t think the organization wants him either. There is no realistic sweetener that can be thrown in to make me change my mind. The only leverage we need is the ability to say “no”.

As for Bam. He may never be an all star, but calling him an “old school center”? Either you’ve never watched Bam play or never watched old school centers play. Probably both.
Perfectly stated.

None of us here are actually GM's but this forum is about what we'd do as GM's. I'm much more comfortable rolling with what we have than putting a penny into Chris Paul...

Edit: Bam as an old school center. Lol



OKC fan here, but more interested in your take on what the Heat are looking to do.

I guess I tagged Miami as a Paul destination because I keep hearing about them star hunting to take one more swing at a 'ship before Pat Riley retires in the next few years (<2-3?). If that's true, it feels logical that Miami would be willing to take a chance on Chris Paul. But, what I'm seeing in the boards on a couple different threads is a definitive no, that the focus is on letting the young players grow and shooting for a FA in 2021.

It's just not the timeline I thought Miami was on. Are the reports on Miami's star-acquiring mentality off base, or is Riles waiting longer to retire than I'd assuming? Curious to get your thoughts.
The Heat are definitely looking to compete, but they're not looking to get robbed on value either. This is a negative value player. You literally have to pay a team to take him unless you're taking worse contracts.

Paul also doesn't really fit our timeline as he's past his prime. Combine that with his salary, injury issues, and ability to destroy a locker room, and I just don't see the appeal.
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Re: Crazy 4 Teamer Where Everyone Wins 

Post#52 » by nate33 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:44 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
Karmaloop wrote:
MoneyTalks41890 wrote:This is what I'm hoping for, but we will see. I could see the Heat standing firm in the short term, as the longer CP is with the Thunder the more potential issues he could create, but I do think Miami needs to add around Butler if they want to be a top East team, and I don't think they have many options beyond CP for that unless they put all their youth in a trade. Butler is pretty old, waiting isn't the best idea. And Beal isn't available nor could MIA meet the price if he was.


Miami standing pat doesn't do a thing for them IMO. They're a middle of the pack Eastern Conference team that probably tops out in the 2nd round depending on the first round matchups. Jimmy Butler is good, but he's not great. They need to capitalize on the short window with Jimmy Butler and the parity in the NBA.

On an unrelated note, who has to add what to a John Wall/Chris Paul swap?



From an outsider? Washington does. Wall is just starting his 5 year massive deal while Paul has only 3 years left.

Wall has a 4-year massive deal, not 5.
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Re: Crazy 4 Teamer Where Everyone Wins 

Post#53 » by nate33 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:49 pm

rugbyrugger23 wrote:Wolves Trade: Wiggins + Okogie
Wolves Receive: Waiters + J. Johnson

Wizards Trade: Wall + Mahinmi + Miles (or Bertans, Riley chooses)
Wizards Receive: Wiggins + Adams + Dragic

Heat Trade: Dragic + JJ + Waiters
Heat Receive: Paul + Miles + Nader (OKC small filler)

Thunder Trade: Adams + Paul + Nader (or Ferguson as value filler)
Thunder Receive: Wall + Mahinmi + Okogie + Huge Cap Relief

Wolves Why: move on from Wiggins at cost of Okogie — but get playable vets and cap flexibility 2020 when JJ+Waiters+Dieng expire.

Wizards Why: make Beal happy by being a good team in East right away (vs. bottom feeder). Add x2 24/25yo players that could actually be a core trio with Beal. They could be a consolidation trade away from a playoff team — maybe 2nd round playoff team.

Heat Why: does Paul and Butler make them a deep playoff team?

OKC Why: move Paul for huge cap flexibility. Presti plays the long game with Wall — let him heal and hope he can be flipped for assets when he is proven healthy and a couple years have ticked off that contract.


The Wizards decline. I think the problem here is the expectation that Adams would be seen as a positive in this deal. He isn't. The Wizards love Thomas Bryant at center and look forward to developing him. Adams' presence only detracts from Bryant, so ultimately he is a very expensive player who can only play backup. With that in mind, the cap salary savings of this deal is non-existent. The Wizards are exchanging Wall's $167M contract for $172M in Wiggins and Adams; only Wall projects to be much more useful on the court from 2020 onward (which is all the Wizards care about).
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Re: Crazy 4 Teamer Where Everyone Wins 

Post#54 » by Scoot McGroot » Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:52 pm

nate33 wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
Karmaloop wrote:
Miami standing pat doesn't do a thing for them IMO. They're a middle of the pack Eastern Conference team that probably tops out in the 2nd round depending on the first round matchups. Jimmy Butler is good, but he's not great. They need to capitalize on the short window with Jimmy Butler and the parity in the NBA.

On an unrelated note, who has to add what to a John Wall/Chris Paul swap?



From an outsider? Washington does. Wall is just starting his 5 year massive deal while Paul has only 3 years left.

Wall has a 4-year massive deal, not 5.



Ah! Forgot you signed him to that when he had 2 years left, not one, so 4 was the max offerable. Well, that’s better!

Still think Washington would have to include something to swap him for Paul though, but partially I’m so down on his ability to bounce back from an achilles rupture. But moreso, his lack of will before his injuries worry me more.
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Re: Crazy 4 Teamer Where Everyone Wins 

Post#55 » by nate33 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:59 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
nate33 wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:

From an outsider? Washington does. Wall is just starting his 5 year massive deal while Paul has only 3 years left.

Wall has a 4-year massive deal, not 5.



Ah! Forgot you signed him to that when he had 2 years left, not one, so 4 was the max offerable. Well, that’s better!

Still think Washington would have to include something to swap him for Paul though, but partially I’m so down on his ability to bounce back from an achilles rupture. But moreso, his lack of will before his injuries worry me more.

The belief around here is that Wall's general inconsistency of effort prior to his Achilles injury was because he was banged up with a knee problem and a heel problem that were a constant aggravation. He apparently played through a great deal of pain most nights.

I don't know if that's good news or bad news. The positive take is that with a two year layoff, all those injuries are hopefully healed and he can get back to being a much more disruptive defensive player. The negative take is that he really does appear to be injury prone. Even if the Achilles recovers, there's no guarantee something else won't go wrong.
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Re: Crazy 4 Teamer Where Everyone Wins 

Post#56 » by Heat3 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:54 pm

cjmcallist wrote:
BBallFreak wrote:
Heat3 wrote:As a fan I don’t want Paul at all. I don’t think the organization wants him either. There is no realistic sweetener that can be thrown in to make me change my mind. The only leverage we need is the ability to say “no”.

As for Bam. He may never be an all star, but calling him an “old school center”? Either you’ve never watched Bam play or never watched old school centers play. Probably both.
Perfectly stated.

None of us here are actually GM's but this forum is about what we'd do as GM's. I'm much more comfortable rolling with what we have than putting a penny into Chris Paul...

Edit: Bam as an old school center. Lol



OKC fan here, but more interested in your take on what the Heat are looking to do.

I guess I tagged Miami as a Paul destination because I keep hearing about them star hunting to take one more swing at a 'ship before Pat Riley retires in the next few years (<2-3?). If that's true, it feels logical that Miami would be willing to take a chance on Chris Paul. But, what I'm seeing in the boards on a couple different threads is a definitive no, that the focus is on letting the young players grow and shooting for a FA in 2021.

It's just not the timeline I thought Miami was on. Are the reports on Miami's star-acquiring mentality off base, or is Riles waiting longer to retire than I'd assuming? Curious to get your thoughts.


The Heat wants stars, but not just a big name. What good is a 34 year old with a massive contract that prevents us from getting other good players? What team could we possibly build to make a run with him on the roster? Especially with some people asking for our young players.

Riley is not some desperate old man that wants a vanity run at the 5th seed before he dies :lol: That seems to be the perception. He wants to win championships. Ask yourself if these moves help do that? I don’t think it does. In fact I think it just sets us back.
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Re: Crazy 4 Teamer Where Everyone Wins 

Post#57 » by BBallFreak » Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:56 pm

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Re: Crazy 4 Teamer Where Everyone Wins 

Post#58 » by rugbyrugger23 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:15 am

nate33 wrote:
rugbyrugger23 wrote:Wolves Trade: Wiggins + Okogie
Wolves Receive: Waiters + J. Johnson

Wizards Trade: Wall + Mahinmi + Miles (or Bertans, Riley chooses)
Wizards Receive: Wiggins + Adams + Dragic

Heat Trade: Dragic + JJ + Waiters
Heat Receive: Paul + Miles + Nader (OKC small filler)

Thunder Trade: Adams + Paul + Nader (or Ferguson as value filler)
Thunder Receive: Wall + Mahinmi + Okogie + Huge Cap Relief

Wolves Why: move on from Wiggins at cost of Okogie — but get playable vets and cap flexibility 2020 when JJ+Waiters+Dieng expire.

Wizards Why: make Beal happy by being a good team in East right away (vs. bottom feeder). Add x2 24/25yo players that could actually be a core trio with Beal. They could be a consolidation trade away from a playoff team — maybe 2nd round playoff team.

Heat Why: does Paul and Butler make them a deep playoff team?

OKC Why: move Paul for huge cap flexibility. Presti plays the long game with Wall — let him heal and hope he can be flipped for assets when he is proven healthy and a couple years have ticked off that contract.


The Wizards decline. I think the problem here is the expectation that Adams would be seen as a positive in this deal. He isn't. The Wizards love Thomas Bryant at center and look forward to developing him. Adams' presence only detracts from Bryant, so ultimately he is a very expensive player who can only play backup. With that in mind, the cap salary savings of this deal is non-existent. The Wizards are exchanging Wall's $167M contract for $172M in Wiggins and Adams; only Wall projects to be much more useful on the court from 2020 onward (which is all the Wizards care about).

If Adams is some big hold up — take the Adams and Mahinmi swap out. No problems there.

But yes, this trade as proposed is cap flexibility for Wizards. Not in 2020 but 2021 depending on keeping Adams and at what cost. If one prefers not to do the Adams and Mahinmi swap — then a ton of cap flexibility 2020.
bleeds_purple
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Re: Crazy 4 Teamer Where Everyone Wins 

Post#59 » by bleeds_purple » Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:19 am

BBallFreak wrote:
Karmaloop wrote:
BBallFreak wrote:Miami needs picks to do this deal, and not second rounders, either. We need our two returned to us.


Not sure what leverage Miami has to justify that argument. They take an extra year of salary with Chris Paul for the 2021/22 season, since he won't decline his PO. Meanwhile, James Johnson and Dion Waiters will make ~$28.7M in 2020/21, while CP3 makes $41.4M. The problem is the Heat can't effectively trade their FRP until 2025 at the earliest, so Dragic's expiring contract really only has value if they're taking on long-term salary. Given they gave Jimmy Butler a sizeable contract, they seem less likely to go into asset collecting mode. This smells like the Rockets/Westbrook situation.
Leverage;

First, from all accounts, we're not that interested.

Second, no one else seems to be as interested as we are.

Third, and this one is going to be a wild stretch so just go with me on this one, we don't have to acquire him. We could save our assets for the next star player that becomes disgruntled.

Acquiring Chris Paul locks us into that duo for the next three years and maybe gets is to the semifinals, once. It makes a hell of a lot more sense to wait for a player who gives us a higher ceiling for a longer period of time.


Yeah. I really don't see how or why an OKC/Miami trade happens unless Miami really wants to take Paul. OKC would have little incentive to add much value to Paul to move him.

I think the next move for OKC is to trade Adams once the season starts if a team emerges as needing his services. The next move for Miami is to wait until a better target comes up rather than hitch their wagon to Paul.
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Re: Crazy 4 Teamer Where Everyone Wins 

Post#60 » by bleeds_purple » Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:22 am

Dat2U wrote:
rugbyrugger23 wrote:
rugbyrugger23 wrote:I said why in OP. But to expand...

Wiggins gets a fresh start on new team in new situation. Can the 24yo fit well with Beal and become his Robin? Adams is 25yo center who can also gets a fresh start (1st season without Westbrook). Can he prove to be a core member with Beal and Wiggins?

Wizards also get more cap flexibility. Being Wiggins contract is 10ish million per year less than Wall contract.

Wizards would be a consolidation trade from being a real contender. They would have expiring contract(s) + Hachimura + TBJ + Wagner + FFRP(s) to build a very nice package for a star player to join their core (if new core proving to gel and be successful). Who does such a package fetch at trade deadline?


To answer my own question, I think A. Gordon would be a perfect target. Miles or Bertans expiring + Hachimura + TBJ plus 1 or 2 FFRP would get Gordon from Magic (assuming they are struggling and are sellers themselves).

C: Adams
F: Gordon
F: Wiggins
G: Beal
G: Dragic

Other than Dragic, that is a hell of a core team for Wizards. I think Beal is the oldest at 26.


It doesn't work.

You have the Wizards taking on too much salary. This puts them in the lux tax.

They also would reject any idea of a Wiggins for Wall swap. Wiz seem intent on letting Wall recover and play it out. I also dont see any scenario where Wiggins is a core member of a successful team. He's only gotten progressively worse since his extension. No one wants that. Everyone can keep trying to dump him to DC or anywhere else, but no one wants a known slacker making his salary on their roster.


I kind of like it for Washington. They are in one of the worst positions in the entire league right now. If they just hold onto Wall there's a decent chance Beal wants out eventually once they play together and it inevitably proves to be a dead-end.

Under those circumstances, taking a flyer on the former number one overall pick and a decently young, solid rotation C isn't the worst plan.

Aaron Gordon I would be less enthusiastic about. I feel like he thinks he's better than he is and will need to learn to accept his role if he's going to be a real player in the league.

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