JR Smith needs to be guaranteed or waived today...

Moderators: Trader_Joe, Texas Chuck, pacers33granger, Mamba4Goat, loserX, Andre Roberstan, HartfordWhalers

User avatar
Kilo
RealGM
Posts: 10,299
And1: 4,060
Joined: Jun 18, 2011
 

JR Smith needs to be guaranteed or waived today... 

Post#1 » by Kilo » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:05 pm

Read on Twitter


Barring a quick trade today it seems like Cleveland will just waive JR Smith, paying him 4.37M of his otherwise owed $15.68M. Smith had agreed to push back his guaranteed date from July 1st(or was it 6th?) to help out Cleveland in possibly trading him. I don't know why he did that as no team would have traded for him to pay him his $15M for the season.

Cleveland found it hard to find a taker because they too are over the tax if they took back serious money in any deal. I believe waiving Smith now gets them below the tax.

This takes off a third team trade asset many folks used around here to make salaries match and avoid tax issues.

JR to the Lakers right? or is KCP, Avery Bradley, and Danny Green already enough 2-guards on their roster?
MoneyTalks41890
RealGM
Posts: 15,586
And1: 7,077
Joined: Oct 13, 2009
 

Re: JR Smith needs to be guaranteed or waived today... 

Post#2 » by MoneyTalks41890 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:14 pm

I think they are 12.2 or something like that in the tax. They get close waiving him, but will still need to make some additional moves.
jbk1234
Forum Mod - Cavs
Forum Mod - Cavs
Posts: 36,239
And1: 20,792
Joined: Dec 22, 2010
   

Re: JR Smith needs to be guaranteed or waived today... 

Post#4 » by jbk1234 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:19 pm

I'm glad the Cavs didn't sell low on JR's contract or feel like they had to trade him because of sunk costs.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
BullyKing
Forum Mod - 76ers
Forum Mod - 76ers
Posts: 9,624
And1: 8,684
Joined: Jan 16, 2014

Re: JR Smith needs to be guaranteed or waived today... 

Post#5 » by BullyKing » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:26 pm

jbk1234 wrote:I'm glad the Cavs didn't sell low on JR's contract or feel like they had to trade him because of sunk costs.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app


I guess but it does feel like there were some missed opportunities here. I assumed the cost of dumping salary would be down given the huge amounts of cap space around the league. That turned out to be incorrect largely because of the star player turnover meaning a guy like Kwahi signing with the Clips used up league wide cap space where if he stayed with Toronto, league wise cap space would not have been impacted.

But I thought the Grizz, Clippers (Harkless) and Hawks all got fantastic value for their space. I understand its more complicated with Smith because its not straight space and he had his guaranteed portion but it seems like something could have been done with it.
NYSixersFan wrote:
the plan is to get as good as quickly as possible....I fully believe we could have been a borderline playoff team last year by adding young veterans....using or draft picks and cap space.....can I specifically tell you who? no.
NoZoLakers
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,548
And1: 1,761
Joined: May 20, 2017

Re: JR Smith needs to be guaranteed or waived today... 

Post#6 » by NoZoLakers » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:26 pm

I see Hou in his future, LA has enough guards for now and they want to save that last roster spot for Iggy or someone better and than Smith, there's nothing Smith brings that bradley/green/daniels or cook doesn't bring
User avatar
CoachD
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,620
And1: 3,862
Joined: Jul 14, 2009
     

Re: JR Smith needs to be guaranteed or waived today... 

Post#7 » by CoachD » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:36 pm

Is it nuts to think he could be looking at a minimum non-guaranteed?
Image
SmartWentCrazy
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 13,350
And1: 20,033
Joined: Dec 29, 2014

Re: JR Smith needs to be guaranteed or waived today... 

Post#8 » by SmartWentCrazy » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:43 pm

jbk1234 wrote:I'm glad the Cavs didn't sell low on JR's contract or feel like they had to trade him because of sunk costs.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app


Is it really better to hold onto an asset and watch it expire than to “sell low”?
jbk1234
Forum Mod - Cavs
Forum Mod - Cavs
Posts: 36,239
And1: 20,792
Joined: Dec 22, 2010
   

Re: JR Smith needs to be guaranteed or waived today... 

Post#9 » by jbk1234 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:48 pm

SmartWentCrazy wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:I'm glad the Cavs didn't sell low on JR's contract or feel like they had to trade him because of sunk costs.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app


Is it really better to hold onto an asset and watch it expire than to “sell low”?
If it will cost you more to get out of the tax later in the summer than what you get for JR's deal, yes it is better.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
jbk1234
Forum Mod - Cavs
Forum Mod - Cavs
Posts: 36,239
And1: 20,792
Joined: Dec 22, 2010
   

Re: JR Smith needs to be guaranteed or waived today... 

Post#10 » by jbk1234 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:53 pm

BullyKing wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:I'm glad the Cavs didn't sell low on JR's contract or feel like they had to trade him because of sunk costs.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app


I guess but it does feel like there were some missed opportunities here. I assumed the cost of dumping salary would be down given the huge amounts of cap space around the league. That turned out to be incorrect largely because of the star player turnover meaning a guy like Kwahi signing with the Clips used up league wide cap space where if he stayed with Toronto, league wise cap space would not have been impacted.

But I thought the Grizz, Clippers (Harkless) and Hawks all got fantastic value for their space. I understand its more complicated with Smith because its not straight space and he had his guaranteed portion but it seems like something could have been done with it.
I suspect they had something lined up with the Wolves and then Russell ended up going to GS. What I think really threw a wrench in the works was how the Lakers, Knicks, and Kings used all their cap space on role players. All of a sudden there's no way for you to get back out of the repeater tax without stretching your expirings.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
SmartWentCrazy
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 13,350
And1: 20,033
Joined: Dec 29, 2014

Re: JR Smith needs to be guaranteed or waived today... 

Post#11 » by SmartWentCrazy » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:54 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:I'm glad the Cavs didn't sell low on JR's contract or feel like they had to trade him because of sunk costs.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app


Is it really better to hold onto an asset and watch it expire than to “sell low”?
If it will cost you more to get out of the tax later in the summer than what you get for JR's deal, yes it is better.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app


Why does Cleveland need to duck the tax?

It wont impact you from a competitive aspect going forward as you’ll clearly duck the tax in the future to reset the repeater element by the time your competitive again so it feels like Gilbert chose his money rather than getting an asset for the team.
MoneyTalks41890
RealGM
Posts: 15,586
And1: 7,077
Joined: Oct 13, 2009
 

Re: JR Smith needs to be guaranteed or waived today... 

Post#12 » by MoneyTalks41890 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:56 pm

SmartWentCrazy wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:
Is it really better to hold onto an asset and watch it expire than to “sell low”?
If it will cost you more to get out of the tax later in the summer than what you get for JR's deal, yes it is better.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app


Why does Cleveland need to duck the tax?

It wont impact you from a competitive aspect going forward as you’ll clearly duck the tax in the future to reset the repeater element by the time your competitive again so it feels like Gilbert chose his money rather than getting an asset for the team.


It really doesn't make sense for the worst team in the league to have the highest payroll in the league. If we're talking about 2nd round picks It's not worth being in the tax.
SmartWentCrazy
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 13,350
And1: 20,033
Joined: Dec 29, 2014

Re: JR Smith needs to be guaranteed or waived today... 

Post#13 » by SmartWentCrazy » Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:00 pm

MoneyTalks41890 wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:If it will cost you more to get out of the tax later in the summer than what you get for JR's deal, yes it is better.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app


Why does Cleveland need to duck the tax?

It wont impact you from a competitive aspect going forward as you’ll clearly duck the tax in the future to reset the repeater element by the time your competitive again so it feels like Gilbert chose his money rather than getting an asset for the team.


It really doesn't make sense for the worst team in the league to have the highest payroll in the league. If we're talking about 2nd round picks It's not worth being in the tax.


So youd prefer that the team owner have more money at the expense of an asset that could help the team from a competitive standpoint moving forward? That doesnt make any sense to me.
HartfordWhalers
Senior Mod - 76ers and NBA TnT Forum
Senior Mod - 76ers and NBA TnT Forum
Posts: 39,796
And1: 14,932
Joined: Apr 07, 2010
   

Re: JR Smith needs to be guaranteed or waived today... 

Post#14 » by HartfordWhalers » Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:00 pm

Kilo wrote:I don't know why he did that


JR got an extra ~1m for moving it back.
MoneyTalks41890
RealGM
Posts: 15,586
And1: 7,077
Joined: Oct 13, 2009
 

Re: JR Smith needs to be guaranteed or waived today... 

Post#15 » by MoneyTalks41890 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:02 pm

SmartWentCrazy wrote:
MoneyTalks41890 wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:
Why does Cleveland need to duck the tax?

It wont impact you from a competitive aspect going forward as you’ll clearly duck the tax in the future to reset the repeater element by the time your competitive again so it feels like Gilbert chose his money rather than getting an asset for the team.


It really doesn't make sense for the worst team in the league to have the highest payroll in the league. If we're talking about 2nd round picks It's not worth being in the tax.


So youd prefer that the team owner have more money at the expense of an asset that could help the team from a competitive standpoint moving forward? That doesnt make any sense to me.


Resetting the repeater and getting the full MLE has value on its own.
jbk1234
Forum Mod - Cavs
Forum Mod - Cavs
Posts: 36,239
And1: 20,792
Joined: Dec 22, 2010
   

Re: JR Smith needs to be guaranteed or waived today... 

Post#16 » by jbk1234 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:06 pm

SmartWentCrazy wrote:
MoneyTalks41890 wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:
Why does Cleveland need to duck the tax?

It wont impact you from a competitive aspect going forward as you’ll clearly duck the tax in the future to reset the repeater element by the time your competitive again so it feels like Gilbert chose his money rather than getting an asset for the team.


It really doesn't make sense for the worst team in the league to have the highest payroll in the league. If we're talking about 2nd round picks It's not worth being in the tax.


So youd prefer that the team owner have more money at the expense of an asset that could help the team from a competitive standpoint moving forward? That doesnt make any sense to me.
I mean assets have a market. The Cavs just spent $5M for the 30th pick. But we're talking about the repeater tax here, and the ability to turn it off by staying under the tax line for two consecutive years. Is a lotto protected 1st really worth $30M or resetting the clock to year zero?

I think that would be bad management. Also, Gilbert had a stroke and I'm sure the minority owners wanted no part of paying the tax for a lotto team.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
SmartWentCrazy
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 13,350
And1: 20,033
Joined: Dec 29, 2014

Re: JR Smith needs to be guaranteed or waived today... 

Post#17 » by SmartWentCrazy » Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:08 pm

MoneyTalks41890 wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:
MoneyTalks41890 wrote:
It really doesn't make sense for the worst team in the league to have the highest payroll in the league. If we're talking about 2nd round picks It's not worth being in the tax.


So youd prefer that the team owner have more money at the expense of an asset that could help the team from a competitive standpoint moving forward? That doesnt make any sense to me.


Resetting the repeater and getting the full MLE has value on its own.


Resetting the repeater matters when youre trying to be competitive. Id strongly guess that in at least 2 of the next three years, once contracts expire, they’ll duck the tax to reset the repeater clock.

They wont have the full MLE after they waive JR either, so I dont buy that reason either.
SmartWentCrazy
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 13,350
And1: 20,033
Joined: Dec 29, 2014

Re: JR Smith needs to be guaranteed or waived today... 

Post#18 » by SmartWentCrazy » Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:09 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:
MoneyTalks41890 wrote:
It really doesn't make sense for the worst team in the league to have the highest payroll in the league. If we're talking about 2nd round picks It's not worth being in the tax.


So youd prefer that the team owner have more money at the expense of an asset that could help the team from a competitive standpoint moving forward? That doesnt make any sense to me.
I mean assets have a market. Gilbert just spent $5M for the 30th pick. But we're talking about the repeater tax here, and the ability to turn it off by staying under the tax line for two consecutive years. Is a lotto protected 1st really worth $30M or resetting the clock to year zero?

I think that's bad management.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app


You will reset the tax before your competitive again. I’d personally prefer my team to have an extra first that for the owner of a rebuilding team to have an extra 30M, but maybe thats just me.
jbk1234
Forum Mod - Cavs
Forum Mod - Cavs
Posts: 36,239
And1: 20,792
Joined: Dec 22, 2010
   

Re: JR Smith needs to be guaranteed or waived today... 

Post#19 » by jbk1234 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:20 pm

SmartWentCrazy wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:
So youd prefer that the team owner have more money at the expense of an asset that could help the team from a competitive standpoint moving forward? That doesnt make any sense to me.
I mean assets have a market. Gilbert just spent $5M for the 30th pick. But we're talking about the repeater tax here, and the ability to turn it off by staying under the tax line for two consecutive years. Is a lotto protected 1st really worth $30M or resetting the clock to year zero?

I think that's bad management.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app


You will reset the tax before your competitive again. I’d personally prefer my team to have an extra first that for the owner of a rebuilding team to have an extra 30M, but maybe thats just me.
I don't think that's a reasonable expectation to have of owners. A lotto protected 1st just isn't worth $30M.

Also, cap flexibility is really important in terms of being able to take advantage of potential future opportunities. You see treadmill teams, even lotto teams, get stuck because of poor cap management all the time.

Finally, there's something to be said for not lowering the price that makes sense for your organization because the market won't pay it at specific time. If the Cavs traded that contract for a poor return, teams would expect them to fold down the line as well.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
User avatar
Scoot McGroot
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 26,581
And1: 3,122
Joined: Feb 16, 2005
     

Re: JR Smith needs to be guaranteed or waived today... 

Post#20 » by Scoot McGroot » Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:32 pm

SmartWentCrazy wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:
So youd prefer that the team owner have more money at the expense of an asset that could help the team from a competitive standpoint moving forward? That doesnt make any sense to me.
I mean assets have a market. Gilbert just spent $5M for the 30th pick. But we're talking about the repeater tax here, and the ability to turn it off by staying under the tax line for two consecutive years. Is a lotto protected 1st really worth $30M or resetting the clock to year zero?

I think that's bad management.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app


You will reset the tax before your competitive again. I’d personally prefer my team to have an extra first that for the owner of a rebuilding team to have an extra 30M, but maybe thats just me.


Seems like the Cavs didn't get an offer of a 1st. If they had, they probably would've taken it.

Would you want your team to pay an extra ~$46m (salary plus luxury tax) for a 2nd or two? Or to take on a multi year deal for 2 2nds?

I would almost always prefer my team to have an extra 1st. But I'm not going to demand my team also pay $100m to do so. There's limits to smart business. I'd love my team to win a championship, but if they're not doing that, I don't think anyone does well to waste $46m. :dontknow:

Return to Trades and Transactions