Felicio for Waiters and 5m in unmarked bills

Moderators: HartfordWhalers, Texas Chuck, pacers33granger, Trader_Joe, loserX, Mamba4Goat, Andre Roberstan

HartfordWhalers
Senior Mod - 76ers and NBA TnT Forum
Senior Mod - 76ers and NBA TnT Forum
Posts: 39,725
And1: 14,897
Joined: Apr 07, 2010
   

Felicio for Waiters and 5m in unmarked bills 

Post#1 » by HartfordWhalers » Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:52 pm

Simple trade.

Felicio for Waiters and cash (lots of it).

Chicago gets a guy who might produce more, and their guard rotation looks weak to me, while their moves suggest they are trying to win some games. Miami spends all their cash limit to get under the tax, and shave off 5m next year in salary.

In essence, Chicago goes from Felicio to Waiters for 4m in cost over two years (9m in salary difference - 5m in cash).
User avatar
gom
Heat forum: Expert Predictor
Posts: 13,298
And1: 31,269
Joined: May 30, 2014
Contact:
 

Re: Felicio for Waiters and 5m in unmarked bills 

Post#2 » by gom » Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:57 pm

That doesn't get Miami under the tax. It just buys Miami more space beneath the apron. I agree tight now the extra cash would help them, but that hampers Miami's cap space the next year.
Humans: Out of nature and hopelessly in it; dual, up in the stars and yet housed in a heart-pumping, breath-gasping body that once belonged to a fish and still carries the gill-marks to prove it.

Ernest Becker

Image
HartfordWhalers
Senior Mod - 76ers and NBA TnT Forum
Senior Mod - 76ers and NBA TnT Forum
Posts: 39,725
And1: 14,897
Joined: Apr 07, 2010
   

Re: Felicio for Waiters and 5m in unmarked bills 

Post#3 » by HartfordWhalers » Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:00 pm

gom wrote:That doesn't get Miami under the tax. It just buys Miami more space beneath the apron. I agree tight now the extra cash would help them, but that hampers Miami's cap space the next year.


How far above the tax do you have Miami?

And I don't understand how shaving 5m in salary next year hurts Miami, it would seem to clearly help.
User avatar
gom
Heat forum: Expert Predictor
Posts: 13,298
And1: 31,269
Joined: May 30, 2014
Contact:
 

Re: Felicio for Waiters and 5m in unmarked bills 

Post#4 » by gom » Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:07 pm

HartfordWhalers wrote:
gom wrote:That doesn't get Miami under the tax. It just buys Miami more space beneath the apron. I agree tight now the extra cash would help them, but that hampers Miami's cap space the next year.


How far above the tax do you have Miami?

And I don't understand how shaving 5m in salary next year hurts Miami, it would seem to clearly help.


Your deal saves $3,943,500 this season and $4,921,000 this season. It's a good deal, but it doesn't solve Miami's problem.
They have $137.1m in salaries and dead cap. $132m is the luxury tax line. They need to do more.
Humans: Out of nature and hopelessly in it; dual, up in the stars and yet housed in a heart-pumping, breath-gasping body that once belonged to a fish and still carries the gill-marks to prove it.

Ernest Becker

Image
HartfordWhalers
Senior Mod - 76ers and NBA TnT Forum
Senior Mod - 76ers and NBA TnT Forum
Posts: 39,725
And1: 14,897
Joined: Apr 07, 2010
   

Re: Felicio for Waiters and 5m in unmarked bills 

Post#5 » by HartfordWhalers » Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:10 pm

gom wrote:
HartfordWhalers wrote:
gom wrote:That doesn't get Miami under the tax. It just buys Miami more space beneath the apron. I agree tight now the extra cash would help them, but that hampers Miami's cap space the next year.


How far above the tax do you have Miami?

And I don't understand how shaving 5m in salary next year hurts Miami, it would seem to clearly help.


Your deal saves $3,943,500 this season and $4,921,000 this season. It's a good deal, but it doesn't solve Miami's problem.
They have $137.1m in salaries and dead cap. $132m is the luxury tax line. They need to do more.


I still don't get the comment about making next year worse.

But going with your numbers (I have others) this fixes 80% of the problem... isn't that better than not fixing that 80%? I hear this complaint occasionally -- my team needs 10 things so I won't accept 6 of them -- and I don't really understand it at all.
User avatar
gom
Heat forum: Expert Predictor
Posts: 13,298
And1: 31,269
Joined: May 30, 2014
Contact:
 

Re: Felicio for Waiters and 5m in unmarked bills 

Post#6 » by gom » Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:15 pm

HartfordWhalers wrote:
gom wrote:
HartfordWhalers wrote:
How far above the tax do you have Miami?

And I don't understand how shaving 5m in salary next year hurts Miami, it would seem to clearly help.


Your deal saves $3,943,500 this season and $4,921,000 this season. It's a good deal, but it doesn't solve Miami's problem.
They have $137.1m in salaries and dead cap. $132m is the luxury tax line. They need to do more.


I still don't get the comment about making next year worse.

But going with your numbers (I have others) this fixes 80% of the problem... isn't that better than not fixing that 80%? I hear this complaint occasionally -- my team needs 10 things so I won't accept 6 of them -- and I don't really understand it at all.


If Miami cannot deal Waiters for an expiring, I prefer Waiters (even at a higher salary) to Felicio, who won't really have a role to play at all. I actually think there is a decent chance Waiters starts for Miami this season: Winslow/Waiters/Butler/Olynyk/Adebayo is my guess actually. Felicio would be behind Olynyk, James Johnson, and maybe even Duncan Robinson & KZ Okpala (though I expect Okpala to start in Sioux Falls).

If at the trade deadline this deal is available, then I can see it more likely (assuming Miami hasn't done anything else). Next offseason Waiters as an expiring may be easier to move than Felicio, because (a) he'll have had more minutes and (b) might have improved. Lot of mights there though.
Humans: Out of nature and hopelessly in it; dual, up in the stars and yet housed in a heart-pumping, breath-gasping body that once belonged to a fish and still carries the gill-marks to prove it.

Ernest Becker

Image
User avatar
Scoot McGroot
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 26,479
And1: 3,071
Joined: Feb 16, 2005
     

Re: Felicio for Waiters and 5m in unmarked bills 

Post#7 » by Scoot McGroot » Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:30 pm

gom wrote:
HartfordWhalers wrote:
gom wrote:That doesn't get Miami under the tax. It just buys Miami more space beneath the apron. I agree tight now the extra cash would help them, but that hampers Miami's cap space the next year.


How far above the tax do you have Miami?

And I don't understand how shaving 5m in salary next year hurts Miami, it would seem to clearly help.


Your deal saves $3,943,500 this season and $4,921,000 this season. It's a good deal, but it doesn't solve Miami's problem.
They have $137.1m in salaries and dead cap. $132m is the luxury tax line. They need to do more.


Smitty has them less than $4m over the tax, and Pincus at BBallInsiders has them $2.3m over the tax. Pincus is missing KZ signing, but which other moves are they missing?

Otherwise, would there be other moves possible? A Leonard/Felicio to Minnesota for Dieng would cut another $3m off the cap this year, though there are other options across the league, maybe, too?
jbk1234
Forum Mod - Cavs
Forum Mod - Cavs
Posts: 35,961
And1: 20,475
Joined: Dec 22, 2010
   

Re: Felicio for Waiters and 5m in unmarked bills 

Post#8 » by jbk1234 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:38 pm

gom wrote:
HartfordWhalers wrote:
gom wrote:
Your deal saves $3,943,500 this season and $4,921,000 this season. It's a good deal, but it doesn't solve Miami's problem.
They have $137.1m in salaries and dead cap. $132m is the luxury tax line. They need to do more.


I still don't get the comment about making next year worse.

But going with your numbers (I have others) this fixes 80% of the problem... isn't that better than not fixing that 80%? I hear this complaint occasionally -- my team needs 10 things so I won't accept 6 of them -- and I don't really understand it at all.


If Miami cannot deal Waiters for an expiring, I prefer Waiters (even at a higher salary) to Felicio, who won't really have a role to play at all. I actually think there is a decent chance Waiters starts for Miami this season: Winslow/Waiters/Butler/Olynyk/Adebayo is my guess actually. Felicio would be behind Olynyk, James Johnson, and maybe even Duncan Robinson & KZ Okpala (though I expect Okpala to start in Sioux Falls).

If at the trade deadline this deal is available, then I can see it more likely (assuming Miami hasn't done anything else). Next offseason Waiters as an expiring may be easier to move than Felicio, because (a) he'll have had more minutes and (b) might have improved. Lot of mights there though.


Yeah the difference between fat Waiters and in-shape Waiters is pretty stark on the court. He looks like that ankle is healed and he's in shape.

Yes, I'm still a temporary resident of Waiters Island.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
User avatar
gom
Heat forum: Expert Predictor
Posts: 13,298
And1: 31,269
Joined: May 30, 2014
Contact:
 

Re: Felicio for Waiters and 5m in unmarked bills 

Post#9 » by gom » Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:39 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
gom wrote:
HartfordWhalers wrote:
How far above the tax do you have Miami?

And I don't understand how shaving 5m in salary next year hurts Miami, it would seem to clearly help.


Your deal saves $3,943,500 this season and $4,921,000 this season. It's a good deal, but it doesn't solve Miami's problem.
They have $137.1m in salaries and dead cap. $132m is the luxury tax line. They need to do more.


Smitty has them less than $4m over the tax, and Pincus at BBallInsiders has them $2.3m over the tax. Pincus is missing KZ signing, but which other moves are they missing?

Otherwise, would there be other moves possible? A Leonard/Felicio to Minnesota for Dieng would cut another $3m off the cap this year, though there are other options across the league, maybe, too?


I'm not sure which ones they are missing. We've signed Nunn & Duncan Robinson for instance. I use Albert Nahmad's numbers unless I see something erroneous (which is almost never). Here is his latest Miami-cap-related tweet:

Read on Twitter


If you explore his site heathoops.com, you can usually see all the source material he uses in his calculations. I wish I could give you more info, but I have some things to write today. ;-)

Anyway, you should bookmark his page, even if you're not a heat fan. He looks at all teams' cap situations.
Humans: Out of nature and hopelessly in it; dual, up in the stars and yet housed in a heart-pumping, breath-gasping body that once belonged to a fish and still carries the gill-marks to prove it.

Ernest Becker

Image
User avatar
gom
Heat forum: Expert Predictor
Posts: 13,298
And1: 31,269
Joined: May 30, 2014
Contact:
 

Re: Felicio for Waiters and 5m in unmarked bills 

Post#10 » by gom » Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:41 pm

jbk1234 wrote:Yeah the difference between fat Waiters and in-shape Waiters is pretty stark on the court. He looks like that ankle is healed and he's in shape.

Yes, I'm still a temporary resident of Waiters Island.


Glad you're back!!! Have a margarita... no... better straight tequila.

Lots of space to lay your towel down, even right by the water. ;-)

Can you imagine Waiters hitting game-crushing shots for the Bulls against us? (shivers)
Humans: Out of nature and hopelessly in it; dual, up in the stars and yet housed in a heart-pumping, breath-gasping body that once belonged to a fish and still carries the gill-marks to prove it.

Ernest Becker

Image
giberish
RealGM
Posts: 11,484
And1: 2,428
Joined: Mar 30, 2006
Location: Whereever you go - there you are

Re: Felicio for Waiters and 5m in unmarked bills 

Post#11 » by giberish » Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:56 pm

while Miami is very tight against the hard cap, they also look thin on solid rotation players. If Waiters can play usefully he'd help them. And if he can't play usefully then why is Chicago trading for him, especially when they need SF help more then SG help.
User avatar
Scoot McGroot
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 26,479
And1: 3,071
Joined: Feb 16, 2005
     

Re: Felicio for Waiters and 5m in unmarked bills 

Post#12 » by Scoot McGroot » Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:18 pm

gom wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
gom wrote:
Your deal saves $3,943,500 this season and $4,921,000 this season. It's a good deal, but it doesn't solve Miami's problem.
They have $137.1m in salaries and dead cap. $132m is the luxury tax line. They need to do more.


Smitty has them less than $4m over the tax, and Pincus at BBallInsiders has them $2.3m over the tax. Pincus is missing KZ signing, but which other moves are they missing?

Otherwise, would there be other moves possible? A Leonard/Felicio to Minnesota for Dieng would cut another $3m off the cap this year, though there are other options across the league, maybe, too?


I'm not sure which ones they are missing. We've signed Nunn & Duncan Robinson for instance. I use Albert Nahmad's numbers unless I see something erroneous (which is almost never). Here is his latest Miami-cap-related tweet:

Read on Twitter


If you explore his site heathoops.com, you can usually see all the source material he uses in his calculations. I wish I could give you more info, but I have some things to write today. ;-)

Anyway, you should bookmark his page, even if you're not a heat fan. He looks at all teams' cap situations.


Albert's great, and I follow him on Twitter where he does all this stuff on the fly.

He doesn't appear to have any 2019-20 salary stuff on his website though and it doesn't appear to have been updated since June. It's all last season's stuff. So, it's hard to see where the numbers are/add up.
HartfordWhalers
Senior Mod - 76ers and NBA TnT Forum
Senior Mod - 76ers and NBA TnT Forum
Posts: 39,725
And1: 14,897
Joined: Apr 07, 2010
   

Re: Felicio for Waiters and 5m in unmarked bills 

Post#13 » by HartfordWhalers » Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:36 pm

Hard cap numbers also include unlikely bonuses -- which is the 1m difference.
ChettheJet
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,559
And1: 323
Joined: Jul 02, 2014
       

Re: Felicio for Waiters and 5m in unmarked bills 

Post#14 » by ChettheJet » Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:44 pm

For the Bulls, yes they're involved in this deal too. The key is Waiters attitude, does he want to play for the Bulls, does he mind coming off the bench, does he dislike cold weather, can he play for Jim Boylen? These are questions that have to be answered before he holds up a red jersey for the cameras and they better all come up smiles if the Bulls are gong to pay him more than they were already on the hook for with Felicio. It's one thing to have a stiff on the end of the bench it's another to have a malcontent making even more money
jbk1234
Forum Mod - Cavs
Forum Mod - Cavs
Posts: 35,961
And1: 20,475
Joined: Dec 22, 2010
   

Re: Felicio for Waiters and 5m in unmarked bills 

Post#15 » by jbk1234 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:00 pm

ChettheJet wrote:For the Bulls, yes they're involved in this deal too. The key is Waiters attitude, does he want to play for the Bulls, does he mind coming off the bench, does he dislike cold weather, can he play for Jim Boylen? These are questions that have to be answered before he holds up a red jersey for the cameras and they better all come up smiles if the Bulls are gong to pay him more than they were already on the hook for with Felicio. It's one thing to have a stiff on the end of the bench it's another to have a malcontent making even more money


The thing with Waiters is he still really likes playing basketball. As long as he's getting minutes, he'll be fine. But I think if he's 100% healthy and in-shape, there is the danger that he'll play better off the bench than a rookie starting PG. It happened with Clarkson and Sexton at the beginning of last year. Most fans were okay with it but the casual ones don't understand why the worse rookie is playing ahead of the better vet.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
User avatar
Kurt Heimlich
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,997
And1: 2,889
Joined: Jun 26, 2001

Re: Felicio for Waiters and 5m in unmarked bills 

Post#16 » by Kurt Heimlich » Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:12 pm

Not feeling the Waiters fit here. The Bulls emphasized scoring efficiency and defensive versatility in their offseason signings. Waiters is a career inefficient scorer with limited size and bad defensive ratings.

Don't get me wrong Felicio is worthless. But at least he knows he's only on the roster to collect a paycheck. Waiters feels like a guy who wouldn't fit the identity this team is trying to build, while getting paid a lot, and probably expecting a larger role than he would get.
drosestruts
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,495
And1: 1,539
Joined: Apr 05, 2012
 

Re: Felicio for Waiters and 5m in unmarked bills 

Post#17 » by drosestruts » Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:51 pm

I think there's a fit between these two teams - I embarrassingly posted a Dunn + Felicio for Crabbe post on the Bulls board (I thought I was on this board) yesterday. Saves a similar amount of money for Miami this year (though it is additional money next year compared to Crabbe's expiring). It does, however, fill the backup point guard spot for them while giving them a year to see how Dunn fits.
User avatar
babyjax13
RealGM
Posts: 15,581
And1: 4,048
Joined: Jul 02, 2006
Location: Tuscaloosa Alabama
Contact:
     

Re: Felicio for Waiters and 5m in unmarked bills 

Post#18 » by babyjax13 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:58 pm

drosestruts wrote:I think there's a fit between these two teams - I embarrassingly posted a Dunn + Felicio for Crabbe post on the Bulls board (I thought I was on this board) yesterday. Saves a similar amount of money for Miami this year (though it is additional money next year compared to Crabbe's expiring). It does, however, fill the backup point guard spot for them while giving them a year to see how Dunn fits.


Why would Atlanta do that deal? Felicio is crap and Dunn isn't exactly incentive.
Image

JazzMatt13 wrote:just because I think aliens probably have to do with JFK, doesn't mean my theory that Jazz will never get Wiggins, isn't true.

JColl
drosestruts
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,495
And1: 1,539
Joined: Apr 05, 2012
 

Re: Felicio for Waiters and 5m in unmarked bills 

Post#19 » by drosestruts » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:26 pm

babyjax13 wrote:
drosestruts wrote:I think there's a fit between these two teams - I embarrassingly posted a Dunn + Felicio for Crabbe post on the Bulls board (I thought I was on this board) yesterday. Saves a similar amount of money for Miami this year (though it is additional money next year compared to Crabbe's expiring). It does, however, fill the backup point guard spot for them while giving them a year to see how Dunn fits.


Why would Atlanta do that deal? Felicio is crap and Dunn isn't exactly incentive.


Save money
Fill position of need (backup pg)
See if there's anything in Dunn they can tap into


Also realizing Crabbe is not on the Heat. I've been out of it.
shrink
RealGM
Posts: 42,241
And1: 3,959
Joined: Sep 26, 2005

Re: Felicio for Waiters and 5m in unmarked bills 

Post#20 » by shrink » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:28 pm

I admit I haven’t been paying close attention, but wouldn’t stretching Felicio, this year or next, then get MIA under the lux?

Return to Trades and Transactions