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Trade#1

Cleveland trades: Kevin Love

Utah trades: Joe Ingles | Dante Exum | Tony Bradley | '20 top 5 protected frp | 2 srp's

Why? Cleveland gets some value out of Love. Utah adds the perfect frontcourt partner for Gobert.

Trade #2

Cleveland trades: Cedi Osman

Sacramento trades: Tyler Lydon

Why? Cleveland adds a big that can stretch the floor. Sacramento gets a young wing to add to their core.

PG: Collin Sexton | Brandon Knight | Matthew Dellavedova
SG: Darius Garland | Kevin Porter Jr. | Dante Exum | Jordan Clarkson
SF: Joe Ingles | Dylan Windler
PF: Tyler Lydon | Larry Nance Jr.
C: Tristan Thompson | Tony Bradley | John Henson | Ante Zizic
Coach: John Beilein

I'm goign to tell you right now that people are going to say Love doesn't have that kind of value and that Osman is worth more than Lydon.

Utah's already traded a 1st to Memphis (with protection that extends several years that makes trading another complicated) - they can't move a 1st for several more years. I'd figure Cleveland would want a better asset in return then Ingles - who's quite good for a win-now team but too old to have much value for Cleveland. A Love trade makes more sense to a team with 1 or 2 year bad contracts to move out.

For the 2nd deal, does Lydon even play for the Kings? I don't see Cedi as better then a backup SF but Lydon seems more 3rd string.

This is exactly the kind of trash heap people think CLE would accept for Love.
other than Jingles who also aint no spring chicken and doesn't fit the timeline in CLE any more
than Love does , all other so called assets retuning are negative value.
Exum is wrong position and hasn't hardly earned the right to play in the league , Bradley should be out of the league already
and I'm not sold Lydon makes it out of training camp in trade 2 which the Cavs would never do as well with Osman part of the core.

Why these terrible valuations of Love continue is beyond me. His on court production was actually lessoned playing with lebron and Irving and last season with them gone he was good as to be expected when he played despite being out of game shape when he came back from missing most of the season which again was due to the TANK where CLE wanted him to take extended time off. They would not have done that if they were trying to up his value for trades this summer.
Utah's picks what they do have won't be good.

Revenged25 wrote:I'm goign to tell you right now that... Love doesn't have that kind of value.

This.

Also, lmao at that post by stillwater.

Utah isn't trading anything close to this for Love. He can't stay healthy and has a terrible contract.

Love is going to rot in Cleveland for the remainder of his contract if Cav fan's assessments here are anything close to what their FO believes.

Cappy_Smurf wrote:

Revenged25 wrote:I'm goign to tell you right now that... Love has that kind of value.

This.

Also, lmao at that post by stillwater.

Utah isn't trading anything close to this for Love.

Love is going to help the young Cleveland guards for the remainder of his contract if Cav fan's assessments here are anything close to what their FO believes.

Looks better now.

Cappy_Smurf wrote:

Revenged25 wrote:I'm goign to tell you right now that... Love doesn't have that kind of value.

This.

Also, lmao at that post by stillwater.

Utah isn't trading anything close to this for Love. He can't stay healthy and has a terrible contract.

Love is going to rot in Cleveland for the remainder of his contract if Cav fan's assessments here are anything close to what their FO believes.

right now you are right Love needs to play like Minny love before hes moved at the dl.
they dont have any need to sell low as his veteran leadership is valuable for roster development and his on court impact is above avg. even if not worth his deal. i mean is tobias worth his deal what about others paid more than actual value. its not uncommon anymore.
regardless cle isnt in any hurry to trade Love and if the value is as low as it seems they would be stupid to value 2020 cap space over keeping him at minimum until he proves worth his contract or close to it.

Revenged25 wrote:I'm goign to tell you right now that people are going to say Love doesn't have that kind of value and that Osman is worth more than Lydon.

My dude is trading the only wing defender on the roster for a guy that two other teams have cut loose. I just can't anymore.

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Joe Ingles is better than Love.

babyjax13 wrote:Joe Ingles is better than Love.

Right... and Cedi Osman is better than Donovan Mitchell...

Revenged25 wrote:

babyjax13 wrote:Joe Ingles is better than Love.

Right... and Cedi Osman is better than Donovan Mitchell...

It sounds like an outrageous call and yes, Jingles will never average 20/10, but he is GREAT Glue guy and elite shooter. Passes the ball VERY well and plays solid D.

I am biased, but with Love's injury history and performances in the last 18 months, they aren't that far apart

Revenged25 wrote:

babyjax13 wrote:Joe Ingles is better than Love.

Right... and Cedi Osman is better than Donovan Mitchell...

Advance stats that adjust for position (well, that's not exactly what +/- stats and VORP do...but approximately) pretty much all come out in favor of Ingles (Love has a large edge in PER because it weights rebounding as much as assists). At this point, Love is a role player, and Ingles is a higher quality role player.

RPM (VORP) Minutes/g (games played) PER
Ingles 18-19: 2.91 (2.5) 31 (82) 13.4
Love 18-19: 1.36 (0) 27 (22) 19.5

Ingles 17-18: 3.5 (3.3) 31 (82) 14.4
Love 17-18: 3.4 (1.4) 28 (59) 22.4

Ingles 16-17: 2.55 (2.3) 24 (82) 12.4
Love 16-17: 5.03 (1.3) 31 (60) 21.1

You'd have to have a lot of confidence that Love can return to his form from 3 seasons ago, and ignore the last two years where Ingles has simply been more impactful. Also, FWIW they are almost exactly 1 year in age apart, and Joe has less miles than Love and has been more durable, so I don't think that's an advantage for Love, either.

babyjax13 wrote:

Revenged25 wrote:

babyjax13 wrote:Joe Ingles is better than Love.

Right... and Cedi Osman is better than Donovan Mitchell...

Advance stats that adjust for position (well, that's not exactly what +/- stats and VORP do...but approximately) pretty much all come out in favor of Ingles (Love has a large edge in PER because it weights rebounding as much as assists). At this point, Love is a role player, and Ingles is a higher quality role player.

RPM (VORP) Minutes/g (games played) PER
Ingles 18-19: 2.91 (2.5) 31 (82) 13.4
Love 18-19: 1.36 (0) 27 (22) 19.5

Ingles 17-18: 3.5 (3.3) 31 (82) 14.4
Love 17-18: 3.4 (1.4) 28 (59) 22.4

Ingles 16-17: 2.55 (2.3) 24 (82) 12.4
Love 16-17: 5.03 (1.3) 31 (60) 21.1

You'd have to have a lot of confidence that Love can return to his form from 3 seasons ago, and ignore the last two years where Ingles has simply been more impactful. Also, FWIW they are almost exactly 1 year in age apart, and Joe has less miles than Love and has been more durable, so I don't think that's an advantage for Love, either.

And that is a perfect example of how stats can lie, along with this example here.

RPM (VORP) Minutes/g (games played) PER
Klay 18-19: -0.33 (.8) 34 (78) 16.6
Danny Green 18-19: 4.73 (2.7) 27.7 (80) 13

Klay 17-18: 1.81 (.9) 34.3 (73) 16
Green 17-18: 0 (1.4) 25.6 (70) 11.4

Klay 16-17: 2.33 (1.5) 34 (78) 17.4
Green 16-17: 1.26 (2) 26.6 (68) 10.1

I mean based off those stats I could make the argument that there is little to no difference between Danny Green and Klay Thompson, maybe even with Green being ahead since there is such a huge difference in their usage%.

Trade 2 - is a nonstarter just because of team balance. CLE doesn't have SF depth, at all.

Trade 1 - i'd rather have Love than Ingles. The rest doesn't do much for me so i'd just rather pass.

Jazz can't afford to lock up that much money in Kevin Love. Gonna be maxing and or supermaxing Gobert and Mitchell soon. Jazz need to be thrifty and go with guys like Jeff Green for the min instead of Love for 30mil a year for years to come.

jazzfan1971 wrote:Jazz can't afford to lock up that much money in Kevin Love. Gonna be maxing and or supermaxing Gobert and Mitchell soon. Jazz need to be thrifty and go with guys like Jeff Green for the min instead of Love for 30mil a year for years to come.

Right Utah is a terrible trade partner with CLE because Utah would have to give up flex and lose better players than what is offered here to get Love in the first place. I'm not sure they even have the players that would appeal to CLE even if they would part with them.

People need to realize CLE didn't have any intention of trying to move KLove this summer coming off a tanking year where he was basically told to stay home , & so knowing his value is lower than what he actually brings to the table when healthy had no intentions of moving him now as that would return nothing of value.
They will explore trade possibilities if and only if he says he wants out, or someone calls with a better than the bs offers thrown around on these boards which is certainly a reasonable possibility provided he plays hard,plays well and leads the Cavs to a surprisingly decent record the first half of the season where the buzz is KLove is back...

Revenged25 wrote:

babyjax13 wrote:

Revenged25 wrote:
Right... and Cedi Osman is better than Donovan Mitchell...

Advance stats that adjust for position (well, that's not exactly what +/- stats and VORP do...but approximately) pretty much all come out in favor of Ingles (Love has a large edge in PER because it weights rebounding as much as assists). At this point, Love is a role player, and Ingles is a higher quality role player.

RPM (VORP) Minutes/g (games played) PER
Ingles 18-19: 2.91 (2.5) 31 (82) 13.4
Love 18-19: 1.36 (0) 27 (22) 19.5

Ingles 17-18: 3.5 (3.3) 31 (82) 14.4
Love 17-18: 3.4 (1.4) 28 (59) 22.4

Ingles 16-17: 2.55 (2.3) 24 (82) 12.4
Love 16-17: 5.03 (1.3) 31 (60) 21.1

You'd have to have a lot of confidence that Love can return to his form from 3 seasons ago, and ignore the last two years where Ingles has simply been more impactful. Also, FWIW they are almost exactly 1 year in age apart, and Joe has less miles than Love and has been more durable, so I don't think that's an advantage for Love, either.

And that is a perfect example of how stats can lie, along with this example here.

RPM (VORP) Minutes/g (games played) PER
Klay 18-19: -0.33 (.8) 34 (78) 16.6
Danny Green 18-19: 4.73 (2.7) 27.7 (80) 13

Klay 17-18: 1.81 (.9) 34.3 (73) 16
Green 17-18: 0 (1.4) 25.6 (70) 11.4

Klay 16-17: 2.33 (1.5) 34 (78) 17.4
Green 16-17: 1.26 (2) 26.6 (68) 10.1

I mean based off those stats I could make the argument that there is little to no difference between Danny Green and Klay Thompson, maybe even with Green being ahead since there is such a huge difference in their usage%.

I actually don't think you could make that argument, and if anything, Love's production with his high usage (about 10 percent) should make Ingles even more appealing. But as usual, we disagree, which is fine. It's still obvious that we aren't good trade partners. Utah doesn't want Love's salary or fragility, Cleveland expects young assets in return. If he goes anywhere, Portland is the right call.

Jazz aren't going to offer a package like that for Love.

Love is a questionable contract.