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pacers33granger wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:

pacers33granger wrote:
That's not a reason to hand out the worst contract of the offseason to a bench player. And it's still exactly what got them into their current mess. I'm sure they felt the cap space wouldn't matter much when handing out the deals to guys like Zeller and MKG, but it came back to bite them this offseason.

I'm not at all convinced it was the worst contract handed out this offseason. He's not even getting $20M per. There are far scarier contracts. People keep calling him a backup but this is a league where Teague, Augustine, Rubio, Bledsoe, Reggie Jackson, Dragic, Trey Burke, and Rondo will all likely be starting on opening day. How many of those players are definitely better than Rozier?

He's 100% a backup. As are Augustin, Burke, and Rondo. The rest are unquestionably better than Rozier. Outside of him being kind of young (but not really as he's 25) and the hope he'll improve, he hasn't shown that he does a single thing well. He's a mediocre defender, doesn't distribute well, and can't even break 40% shooting. You could say he doesn't really turn the ball over, but it's hard to when you just jack up bad shots.

jbk1234 wrote:

pacers33granger wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:I'm not as down on Rozier as most and I really don't think that cap space will matter given the duration of the contract. They've got more expiring contracts than they can likely move as is.

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That's not a reason to hand out the worst contract of the offseason to a bench player. And it's still exactly what got them into their current mess. I'm sure they felt the cap space wouldn't matter much when handing out the deals to guys like Zeller and MKG, but it came back to bite them this offseason.

I'm not at all convinced it was the worst contract handed out this offseason. He's not even getting $20M per. There are far scarier contracts. People keep calling him a backup but this is a league where Teague, Augustine, Rubio, Bledsoe, Reggie Jackson, Dragic, Trey Burke, and Rondo will all likely be starting on opening day. How many of those players are definitely better than Rozier?

BullyKing wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:

pacers33granger wrote:
That's not a reason to hand out the worst contract of the offseason to a bench player. And it's still exactly what got them into their current mess. I'm sure they felt the cap space wouldn't matter much when handing out the deals to guys like Zeller and MKG, but it came back to bite them this offseason.

I'm not at all convinced it was the worst contract handed out this offseason. He's not even getting $20M per. There are far scarier contracts. People keep calling him a backup but this is a league where Teague, Augustine, Rubio, Bledsoe, Reggie Jackson, Dragic, Trey Burke, and Rondo will all likely be starting on opening day. How many of those players are definitely better than Rozier?

Trey Burke is definitely not likely to be starting on opening day. He might not even be the Sixers primary backup PG and they signed him for the minimum. The fact that the question is whether or not he is "definitely better than Rozier" given the above sort of illustrates the problem with Rozier's contract.

jbk1234 wrote:

BullyKing wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:
I'm not at all convinced it was the worst contract handed out this offseason. He's not even getting $20M per. There are far scarier contracts. People keep calling him a backup but this is a league where Teague, Augustine, Rubio, Bledsoe, Reggie Jackson, Dragic, Trey Burke, and Rondo will all likely be starting on opening day. How many of those players are definitely better than Rozier?

Trey Burke is definitely not likely to be starting on opening day. He might not even be the Sixers primary backup PG and they signed him for the minimum. The fact that the question is whether or not he is "definitely better than Rozier" given the above sort of illustrates the problem with Rozier's contract.

I thought Burke was still on the Knicks. Who's their starting PG?

In any event, my point was if a third of the league doesn't have a starting PG better than Rozier, and that remains true over the length of his contract, he's tradeable.

jbk1234 wrote:

BullyKing wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:
I'm not at all convinced it was the worst contract handed out this offseason. He's not even getting $20M per. There are far scarier contracts. People keep calling him a backup but this is a league where Teague, Augustine, Rubio, Bledsoe, Reggie Jackson, Dragic, Trey Burke, and Rondo will all likely be starting on opening day. How many of those players are definitely better than Rozier?

Trey Burke is definitely not likely to be starting on opening day. He might not even be the Sixers primary backup PG and they signed him for the minimum. The fact that the question is whether or not he is "definitely better than Rozier" given the above sort of illustrates the problem with Rozier's contract.

I thought Burke was still on the Knicks. Who's their starting PG?

jbk1234 wrote:

pacers33granger wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:
I'm not at all convinced it was the worst contract handed out this offseason. He's not even getting $20M per. There are far scarier contracts. People keep calling him a backup but this is a league where Teague, Augustine, Rubio, Bledsoe, Reggie Jackson, Dragic, Trey Burke, and Rondo will all likely be starting on opening day. How many of those players are definitely better than Rozier?

He's 100% a backup. As are Augustin, Burke, and Rondo. The rest are unquestionably better than Rozier. Outside of him being kind of young (but not really as he's 25) and the hope he'll improve, he hasn't shown that he does a single thing well. He's a mediocre defender, doesn't distribute well, and can't even break 40% shooting. You could say he doesn't really turn the ball over, but it's hard to when you just jack up bad shots.

I think he's a good defender and the advanced stats agree with me. The only guy on that list who comes close to him defensively is Rubio and Rubio is actually a worse shooter than him. People underrate the ability to defend the PG position in a league where maybe half the players even make the attempt. I'm not saying it's a team-friendly deal, but I suspect it will age better than at least a handful of the contracts that were handed out this summer.

pacers33granger wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:

pacers33granger wrote:
He's 100% a backup. As are Augustin, Burke, and Rondo. The rest are unquestionably better than Rozier. Outside of him being kind of young (but not really as he's 25) and the hope he'll improve, he hasn't shown that he does a single thing well. He's a mediocre defender, doesn't distribute well, and can't even break 40% shooting. You could say he doesn't really turn the ball over, but it's hard to when you just jack up bad shots.

I think he's a good defender and the advanced stats agree with me. The only guy on that list who comes close to him defensively is Rubio and Rubio is actually a worse shooter than him. People underrate the ability to defend the PG position in a league where maybe half the players even make the attempt. I'm not saying it's a team-friendly deal, but I suspect it will age better than at least a handful of the contracts that were handed out this summer.

What stats are you looking at? I see him having a negative DRPM per ESPN and a generally poor defensive rating. These stats were also against mainly backups. He's somewhat athletic but every time I've seen him he gambles and doesn't seem to have good defensive awareness.

jbk1234 wrote:

pacers33granger wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:I'm not as down on Rozier as most and I really don't think that cap space will matter given the duration of the contract. They've got more expiring contracts than they can likely move as is.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

That's not a reason to hand out the worst contract of the offseason to a bench player. And it's still exactly what got them into their current mess. I'm sure they felt the cap space wouldn't matter much when handing out the deals to guys like Zeller and MKG, but it came back to bite them this offseason.

I'm not at all convinced it was the worst contract handed out this offseason. He's not even getting $20M per. There are far scarier contracts. People keep calling him a backup but this is a league where Teague, Augustine, Rubio, Bledsoe, Reggie Jackson, Dragic, Trey Burke, and Rondo will all likely be starting on opening day. How many of those players are definitely better than Rozier?

jbk1234 wrote:
He's got a positive DBPM and VORP according to basketball reference.

Honestly, ESPN has never publicized their methodology for DRPM, and it produces so may crazy outliers, I have a hard time taking it seriously anymore. The only other situation where a for-profit company provided data based on a formula and process they don't disclose, and where people treated it as a reliable data point, is the bond-rating companies and we saw how that worked out in 08. For all the ink spilled writing about the NBA, I've never seen someone try to reverse-engineer their findings to see if they could extrapolate their formula for producing that stat. If there's a reliable methodology there, it shouldn't take someone with a background in mathematics more than a week to figure it out.

pacers33granger wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:
I don't think this off-season, in particular, that was the problem. The problem was the three or four off-seasons that preceded it. The bill just came due this summer.

This is 100% right but the biggest issue is they didn't learn anything apparently. They again went for a lower upside prospect in the draft and badly overpaid a role player, both of which are the types moves that caused this mess.

stinger14 wrote:So true, and Jordan needs a lot of the blame. A lot of fans were quick to throw Rich Cho under the bus (deserved it) but here is Kuochak making the same mistakes. Two GM's same crap points back to the one constant, Jordan

Hornet Mania wrote:Rozier is an overpay but at least he's young and has shown flashes. The contract is meaningless because we aren't attracting any FAs over the next two offseasons no matter what and even if we needed to take on salary for a trade our cap sheet is wide open in July 2020 and July 2021 so he doesn't ruin cap flexibility. At minimum he's preferable to Elfrid Payton or Emmanuel Mudiay, which was realistically what the team was looking at next season if they didn't get Rozier.

Hornet Mania wrote:I don't get the "PJ Washington is a low upside prospect" takes, i's not as if he's a 23yr old Sr. He was picked around the area he was projected to be drafted, even saw an article that claimed he was a potential gem prior to the draft. Of course he could flop, it would be very on-brand, but it's not a red flag situation like the Suns and Cam Johnson where the team reached extremely hard AND got an older prospect. The verdict on that pick won't be decided for awhile.

pacers33granger wrote:Most draft experts have him as a 10 year vet, but never an all star type guy. Which is an alright late lotto pick, but Charlotte has a history of taking the safe picks and amassing a team of middling role players as a result.

Given the direction of the franchise they should have gone for an upside play or tried to take advantage of teams looking to trade up and get another asset. He'll be a good NBA player, just not sure it was the right direction and again is partially what got them into this current mess. Also slightly odd given PF is where the glut is on that roster.

Diop wrote:our board cap expert was outlining how the Rozier contract had to be certain $ers to be a legal trade for Kemba. it doesn't excuse the Hornets, just adds a little context. Not trading Kemba the previous year was largely due to the All star game I'm sure. The team was going no where and they needed to reset. It was the best thing for Kemba as well.

i'm always naively optimistic at this time of the year and hope they see something in Rozier that we don't.

HartfordWhalers wrote:

Diop wrote:our board cap expert was outlining how the Rozier contract had to be certain $ers to be a legal trade for Kemba. it doesn't excuse the Hornets, just adds a little context. Not trading Kemba the previous year was largely due to the All star game I'm sure. The team was going no where and they needed to reset. It was the best thing for Kemba as well.

i'm always naively optimistic at this time of the year and hope they see something in Rozier that we don't.

Link me to the post, but without seeing it I will say that this sounds completely wrong.

You could have brought back in Rozier at 3 years 3m a year and had it a legal trade.
Trade rules are limits on the amount of money you can bring back, and don’t require you bring back that much.
And Boston could have signed Kemba outright, they didn’t need matching.

While a sign and trade needs a three year deal, it doesn’t need be all guaranteed or for as high a salary.