MIA/WAS/OKC (No CP3)

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MIA/WAS/OKC (No CP3) 

Post#1 » by MoneyTalks41890 » Fri Aug 9, 2019 3:50 pm

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/255137/Heat-Believe-They-Can-Get-John-Wall-Back-To-All-Star-Level-In-Potential-Trade

Continued interest in Wall and Beal from Miami, so I offer this:

MIA out: Dragic, JJ, Dion, Leonard, Herro, Bam, 2020 MIA 1st, 2022 MIA 1st, 2024 MIA 1st, 2026 MIA 1st
MIA in: Wall, Beal, Nader, Muscala 2021 MIA 1st, 2023 MIA 1st

Heat get Beal and Wall while still keeping Winslow.

OKC out: Roberson, Nader, Muscala, Noel, 2021 MIA 1st, 2023 MIA 1st lotto prot
OKC in: JJ, Bam, 2024 MIA 1st

Thunder help out by taking salary and giving back picks so Miami has more flexibility to move more of them.

WAS out: Wall, Beal
WAS in: Dragic, Dion, Roberson, Herro, Noel, 2020 MIA 1st, 2022 MIA 1st, 2026 MIA 1st

Wizards get a lotto prospect, 3 1sts, and cut a ton of salary. They also get Noel to compete with Bryant.
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Re: MIA/WAS/OKC (No CP3) 

Post#2 » by Cklbmk » Fri Aug 9, 2019 4:02 pm

This is complete robbery by Heat.

How do they get the 2 best players in the trade and 2 1sts while giving up 3 bad contracts

OKC doesn't do this. Noel is almost as good as Bam.. adding the picks makes no sense

Wizards don't do this. They can't trade 2 stars and have their best asset coming back being Herro
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Re: MIA/WAS/OKC (No CP3) 

Post#3 » by penbeast0 » Fri Aug 9, 2019 4:18 pm

Assuming all those picks from Miami with no protection listed are unprotected or close to it, I think this is what it would take to get Beal. For OKC, they are getting an unprotected pick for two protected ones and upgrading (albeit not greatly) from Noel to Bam while moving contracts that aren't in their long term plans.

For Washington, if Beal won't extend and they feel he is likely to move on in a couple of years, this is the kind of a haul they are looking for. Herro to try to fill Beal's spot and 3 unprotected picks even if Miami is a good team with the additions and Riley is likely to keep them that way. Still, there is a real chance that injury or implosion makes at least one of those picks very good (wouldn't do if it those picks get protections).

For Miami, this is rolling the dice on Wall's return while simultaneously improving short term with a young perfect fit established star to go with Butler. Not sure what they do at PG or center though. I guess Winslow plays point, Derrick Jones plays PF and Olynick plays C and they hope to develop a bench while waiting for Wall's return?

A nice try at actually looking at all the team's needs rather then just one.
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Re: MIA/WAS/OKC (No CP3) 

Post#4 » by MoneyTalks41890 » Fri Aug 9, 2019 4:22 pm

A few things:

All the picks out from Miami are unp. The 2021 is currently unp to OKC, but Noel is 25 and Bam is 22. I have more faith in Bam's improvement than Noel's. And Noel is roughly the same age as Adams, so I don't think having both makes sense. And I see Bam as being able to play some PF next to Adams, whereas Noel really can't.
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Re: MIA/WAS/OKC (No CP3) 

Post#5 » by Dat2U » Fri Aug 9, 2019 5:33 pm

I think Washington fans have said it million times, there's no benefit in lowering Beal's return by forcing a team to take Wall as well. The Wizards do not need max cap space. They are not a free agent destination, they can get full value for Beal separately, rehab Wall's value and perhaps move him in a year or two if necessary.
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Re: MIA/WAS/OKC (No CP3) 

Post#6 » by nate33 » Fri Aug 9, 2019 5:46 pm

Dat2U wrote:I think Washington fans have said it million times, there's no benefit in lowering Beal's return by forcing a team to take Wall as well. The Wizards do not need max cap space. They are not a free agent destination, they can get full value for Beal separately, rehab Wall's value and perhaps move him in a year or two if necessary.

This. A return in a Beal-alone trade is going to be much higher than any return in a Beal+Wall trade. So if the Wizards trade Beal, they'll do so without including Wall. Keeping Wall around for the duration of his contract is not a problem for a team entering a massive rebuild.
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Re: MIA/WAS/OKC (No CP3) 

Post#7 » by DoItALL9 » Fri Aug 9, 2019 5:54 pm

Dat2U wrote:I think Washington fans have said it million times, there's no benefit in lowering Beal's return by forcing a team to take Wall as well. The Wizards do not need max cap space. They are not a free agent destination, they can get full value for Beal separately, rehab Wall's value and perhaps move him in a year or two if necessary.
nate33 wrote:
Dat2U wrote:I think Washington fans have said it million times, there's no benefit in lowering Beal's return by forcing a team to take Wall as well. The Wizards do not need max cap space. They are not a free agent destination, they can get full value for Beal separately, rehab Wall's value and perhaps move him in a year or two if necessary.

This. A return in a Beal-alone trade is going to be much higher than any return in a Beal+Wall trade. So if the Wizards trade Beal, they'll do so without including Wall. Keeping Wall around for the duration of his contract is not a problem for a team entering a massive rebuild.
Looking at Herro as essentially still a draft pick the Wizards are getting 4 1st round picks for Beal here. Wall is not bringing anything back realistically or in any other trade for awhile.

So what do you two believe Beal will fetch the Wizards in a trade by himself?
And which teams do you believe need him & would do it?


The Wizards are also getting back three potentially four (if Robersonv ever plays again) useful players.
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Re: MIA/WAS/OKC (No CP3) 

Post#8 » by Illmatic12 » Fri Aug 9, 2019 5:57 pm

DoItALL9 wrote:
Dat2U wrote:I think Washington fans have said it million times, there's no benefit in lowering Beal's return by forcing a team to take Wall as well. The Wizards do not need max cap space. They are not a free agent destination, they can get full value for Beal separately, rehab Wall's value and perhaps move him in a year or two if necessary.
nate33 wrote:
Dat2U wrote:I think Washington fans have said it million times, there's no benefit in lowering Beal's return by forcing a team to take Wall as well. The Wizards do not need max cap space. They are not a free agent destination, they can get full value for Beal separately, rehab Wall's value and perhaps move him in a year or two if necessary.

This. A return in a Beal-alone trade is going to be much higher than any return in a Beal+Wall trade. So if the Wizards trade Beal, they'll do so without including Wall. Keeping Wall around for the duration of his contract is not a problem for a team entering a massive rebuild.
Looking at Herro as essentially still a draft pick the Wizards are getting 4 1st round picks for Beal here. Wall is not bringing anything back realistically or I'm any other trade for awhile.

So what do you two believe Beal will fetch the Wizards in a trade by himself?
And which teams do you believe need him & would do it?


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I don’t believe that.

The Heat have clearly been interested in Wall for some time. When he gets healthy and plays enough to establish his value, Washington can probably work to trade him to Miami straight up and leave Beal out of it.
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Re: MIA/WAS/OKC (No CP3) 

Post#9 » by gambitx777 » Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:22 am

I don't like the trade as is, I think any trade like this needs a 4th team but here is how I would tweak it.
Wiz get gallinari, bam, herro, winslow Roberson, Schroeder and 3 second round picks 2020-2021 from OKC and 2022 from Miami
OKC get jj waiters, and dragic, 2025 unprotected first and the heat unprotect the picks OKC owns.
Heat get wall and Beal.

I again don't feel like you do a wall Beal deal but here is the justification for this. It's admittedly a little thin for OKC but here we go.

The wiz put a discount on Beal to move wall. They still get two good young but chips, two solid young guys on cheap deals in Schroeder and Winslow. Roberson can be used as trade filler or cut and Gallo, what's he worth to a contender with cap issues or a young team trying to make the play offs? So the reason the wiz do this, this way is because they get 4 decent younga nd younger players and they get a really good vet that can be moved maybe to get back the pick discount you gave to move wall.

OKC get those picks unprotected and another unprotected pick but that might not be enough . To take that money back for next year .

Idk.

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Re: MIA/WAS/OKC (No CP3) 

Post#10 » by gom » Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:53 am

Miami doesn't need to do this. Wall's contract destroys the team. Giving up more first round picks for him makes no sense at all.
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Re: MIA/WAS/OKC (No CP3) 

Post#11 » by dakomish23 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:03 am

Dat2U wrote:I think Washington fans have said it million times, there's no benefit in lowering Beal's return by forcing a team to take Wall as well. The Wizards do not need max cap space. They are not a free agent destination, they can get full value for Beal separately, rehab Wall's value and perhaps move him in a year or two if necessary.


This is what I said in another Beal thread. Don’t dilute your return to get cap space you don’t need.

If they’re moving Beal, get all the assets and all the prospects.
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Re: MIA/WAS/OKC (No CP3) 

Post#12 » by jbk1234 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:31 pm

Cklbmk wrote:This is complete robbery by Heat.

How do they get the 2 best players in the trade and 2 1sts while giving up 3 bad contracts

OKC doesn't do this. Noel is almost as good as Bam.. adding the picks makes no sense

Wizards don't do this. They can't trade 2 stars and have their best asset coming back being Herro
I'm not convinced that Wall and Beal combined have much more than neutral value. I wouldn't trade for them as a package personally.

OKC is stealing value here. Noel re-signed for the minimum and will be an UFA next summer. This is awful for the Heat IMO.

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Re: MIA/WAS/OKC (No CP3) 

Post#13 » by MoneyTalks41890 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:39 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Cklbmk wrote:This is complete robbery by Heat.

How do they get the 2 best players in the trade and 2 1sts while giving up 3 bad contracts

OKC doesn't do this. Noel is almost as good as Bam.. adding the picks makes no sense

Wizards don't do this. They can't trade 2 stars and have their best asset coming back being Herro
I'm not convinced that Wall and Beal combined have much more than neutral value. I wouldn't trade for them as a package personally.

OKC is stealing value here. Noel re-signed for the minimum and will be an UFA next summer. This is awful for the Heat IMO.

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Noel has early bird rights that transfer in a trade, so while he's not restricted he can be brought back unless he outplays a 9m per tag.
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Re: MIA/WAS/OKC (No CP3) 

Post#14 » by jbk1234 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:57 pm

MoneyTalks41890 wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Cklbmk wrote:This is complete robbery by Heat.

How do they get the 2 best players in the trade and 2 1sts while giving up 3 bad contracts

OKC doesn't do this. Noel is almost as good as Bam.. adding the picks makes no sense

Wizards don't do this. They can't trade 2 stars and have their best asset coming back being Herro
I'm not convinced that Wall and Beal combined have much more than neutral value. I wouldn't trade for them as a package personally.

OKC is stealing value here. Noel re-signed for the minimum and will be an UFA next summer. This is awful for the Heat IMO.

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Noel has early bird rights that transfer in a trade, so while he's not restricted he can be brought back unless he outplays a 9m per tag.
Any team in the league could've outbid the Thunder by offering Noel the entire taxpayer MLE two months ago. That didn't happen. It's worth considering that when deciding what his current trade value might be.

If the Heat offer more than a sweetener for Beal and Wall packaged together, Pat Riley should be fired.

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Re: MIA/WAS/OKC (No CP3) 

Post#15 » by Hoops23 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:25 am

MoneyTalks41890 wrote:
Continued interest in Wall and Beal from Miami, so I offer this:

MIA out: Dragic, JJ, Dion, Leonard, Herro, Bam, 2020 MIA 1st, 2022 MIA 1st, 2024 MIA 1st, 2026 MIA 1st
MIA in: Wall, Beal, Nader, Muscala 2021 MIA 1st, 2023 MIA 1st

Heat get Beal and Wall while still keeping Winslow.


S0 the trade for Miami is like Beal for Bam, Herro, 4 1st round pick plus takin on Wall's fat contract. Wall is not an asset.

Thats a big NO for Miami. Thats too much to give up for Beal.
It will be better for the Heat to wait on Beal when he becomes a free agent to avoid giving assets and absorbing Walls contract.

there is a continued interest for Beal but not with Wall. The reason the Heat is takin Wall is a compensation to the Wiz for dealing with Beal.
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Re: MIA/WAS/OKC (No CP3) 

Post#16 » by giberish » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:28 am

As stated many times, trading Wall and Beal together doesn't make much sense. I don't see Miami with the assets to make a deal for Beal and still have a team (and Butler + Beal + crap with no future picks is a bad idea.

Now if Miami really does have interest in Wall, and he looks ready to play before the trade deadline, then perhaps a Wall only deal could happen.

Wall/Bonga/Bertrans for Dragic/Waiters/Johnson I think keeps Miami under the hard cap and Washington out of the luxury tax.

Miami gambles for another 'star', just giving up an older 1-year PG and some 2-year bad contracts. Bertrans would cover any Johnson PF minutes as needed, and perhaps Herro covers any role Waiters had.

Washington moves on from Wall relatively painlessly. Getting back contracts that will be off the books by 2021.
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Re: MIA/WAS/OKC (No CP3) 

Post#17 » by MoneyTalks41890 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:29 am

Hoops23 wrote:
MoneyTalks41890 wrote:
Continued interest in Wall and Beal from Miami, so I offer this:

MIA out: Dragic, JJ, Dion, Leonard, Herro, Bam, 2020 MIA 1st, 2022 MIA 1st, 2024 MIA 1st, 2026 MIA 1st
MIA in: Wall, Beal, Nader, Muscala 2021 MIA 1st, 2023 MIA 1st

Heat get Beal and Wall while still keeping Winslow.


S0 the trade for Miami is like Beal for Bam, Herro, 4 1st round pick plus takin on Wall's fat contract. Wall is not an asset.

Thats a big NO for Miami. Thats too much to give up for Beal.
It will be better for the Heat to wait on Beal when he becomes a free agent to avoid giving assets and absorbing Walls contract.

there is a continued interest for Beal but not with Wall. The reason the Heat is takin Wall is a compensation to the Wiz for dealing with Beal.


To be clear this is 2 picks. You’re getting two back. And the Heat don’t have the assets for Beal without this kind of arrangement. Bam and Herro are nowhere near enough and they can’t trade any other picks without OKC involved.
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Re: MIA/WAS/OKC (No CP3) 

Post#18 » by MoneyTalks41890 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:31 am

Some folks have said deal Beal without Wall but I’m not sure that brings back enough to justify it and frankly if I’m the Wiz I just get out of Wall while I can. Some can disagree, but there’s nothing more interesting about an alternative.
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Re: MIA/WAS/OKC (No CP3) 

Post#19 » by Hoops23 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:13 am

MoneyTalks41890 wrote:
Hoops23 wrote:
MoneyTalks41890 wrote:
Continued interest in Wall and Beal from Miami, so I offer this:

MIA out: Dragic, JJ, Dion, Leonard, Herro, Bam, 2020 MIA 1st, 2022 MIA 1st, 2024 MIA 1st, 2026 MIA 1st
MIA in: Wall, Beal, Nader, Muscala 2021 MIA 1st, 2023 MIA 1st

Heat get Beal and Wall while still keeping Winslow.


S0 the trade for Miami is like Beal for Bam, Herro, 4 1st round pick plus takin on Wall's fat contract. Wall is not an asset.

Thats a big NO for Miami. Thats too much to give up for Beal.
It will be better for the Heat to wait on Beal when he becomes a free agent to avoid giving assets and absorbing Walls contract.

there is a continued interest for Beal but not with Wall. The reason the Heat is takin Wall is a compensation to the Wiz for dealing with Beal.


To be clear this is 2 picks. You’re getting two back. And the Heat don’t have the assets for Beal without this kind of arrangement. Bam and Herro are nowhere near enough and they can’t trade any other picks without OKC involved.
two picks or four picks, it aint matter. Miami is not going to do that trade. If no deal of Beal to Miami, then be it. Miami will wait by 2021 to get him to avoid giving assets and taking on Walls contract.
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Re: MIA/WAS/OKC (No CP3) 

Post#20 » by MoneyTalks41890 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:23 am

Hoops23 wrote:
MoneyTalks41890 wrote:
Hoops23 wrote:S0 the trade for Miami is like Beal for Bam, Herro, 4 1st round pick plus takin on Wall's fat contract. Wall is not an asset.

Thats a big NO for Miami. Thats too much to give up for Beal.
It will be better for the Heat to wait on Beal when he becomes a free agent to avoid giving assets and absorbing Walls contract.

there is a continued interest for Beal but not with Wall. The reason the Heat is takin Wall is a compensation to the Wiz for dealing with Beal.


To be clear this is 2 picks. You’re getting two back. And the Heat don’t have the assets for Beal without this kind of arrangement. Bam and Herro are nowhere near enough and they can’t trade any other picks without OKC involved.
two picks or four picks, it aint matter. Miami is not going to do that trade. If no deal of Beal to Miami, then be it. Miami will wait by 2021 to get him to avoid giving assets and taking on Walls contract.


And by then Jimmy is 31+ and out of his prime and very few are coming to play with him. There’s a time crunch on the Heat if the idea is maximizing wins.

Also the difference between two and 4 picks is pretty large.

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