Jonathan Isaac for Derrick White

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Re: Jonathan Isaac for Derrick White 

Post#21 » by Magic_Johnny12 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:52 pm

It's truly mind boggling to me that Derrick White is even in the same conversation as Isaac in regards to trade value.

I do not trust any player playing in Pop's or Steven's system and will proceed with caution when trading with them.

I truly like White as a player, but this isn't even close.
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Re: Jonathan Isaac for Derrick White 

Post#22 » by BlazersBroncos » Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:43 pm

Isaac has considerably more value given his unique measurable and age. I think he maxes out as a elite role player rather than a guy who can carry the scoring load, but an elite role player that can guard with his versatility and runs the floor like him is worth a lot more than White IMO.

Both are the type of young guys you want on your team, its just that one has a lot more value.
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Re: Jonathan Isaac for Derrick White 

Post#23 » by GeorgeMarcus » Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:46 pm

I like the premise if SAS can add a little value
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Re: Jonathan Isaac for Derrick White 

Post#24 » by Chinook » Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:54 pm

BlazersBroncos wrote:Isaac has considerably more value given his unique measurable and age. I think he maxes out as a elite role player rather than a guy who can carry the scoring load, but an elite role player that can guard with his versatility and runs the floor like him is worth a lot more than White IMO.

Both are the type of young guys you want on your team, its just that one has a lot more value.


White's better than Isaac though. That can't be discounted. People keep talking about White being near his ceiling, and I think it's a lazy take. Like, sure, White isn't likely to get bigger or faster or jump higher. But he can already do those things at an above-average level. Things he can improve are his shooting from deep and his general game-to-game consistency. He does those things, he's not just some average point guard. He'd be among the top in the league.

Isaac was among my top prospects in his draft, so I certainly understand wanting to hold onto him above anyone else. What's the point in acquiring a strong young PG if you get rid of one of his best potential running mates to do it? But I think it's wrong to look at Isaac in terms of his ceiling and White in terms of his present when evaluating them.
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Re: Jonathan Isaac for Derrick White 

Post#25 » by Cklbmk » Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:57 pm

Catchall wrote:Derrick White is near his ceiling as a player, imo. Jonathan Issac is just scratching the surface of his potential. White has turned out well for a late 1st-round pick, but there's an obvious reason Issac was drafted in the high lottery. Issac could be a DPOY-caliber defender and has and untapped offensive potential. Orlando wouldn't trade Issac for White. Not close.



Derrick White is near his ceiling entering what is basically his 2nd year? With the Spurs history of developing people into their 30s.. I just can't see that logic at all.
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Re: Jonathan Isaac for Derrick White 

Post#26 » by Chinook » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:02 pm

Magic_Johnny12 wrote:I do not trust any player playing in Pop's or Steven's system and will proceed with caution when trading with them.


This such an old take. Players who are good on the Spurs are good wherever else they play unless they are put in obviously bad positions. Danny Green was an elite three-and-D guy with SA, and he kept right on being that with Toronto. Grizz fans seem to love Anderson. Guys like Neal and Beli were (or are) flawed as Spurs just as much as they were with other teams. Neal's MKE stats were actually better than his stats with SA.

Jonathon Simmons sucks. He sucked with the Spurs too. I was very vocal in threads on this site about that fact when he left the Spurs. A number of posters thought I was just sour-grapesing and that the Spurs had let a key piece walk. He didn't actually play worse with Orlando. That's how he was everywhere he went. He was in the d-league for a reason. But guys like Reggie Miller hyped Simmons up so much that non-Spurs fans didn't bother paying attention.

I am not saying there aren't bad systems or even decent ones that just happen not to align with a player's strengths. But Pop doesn't turn crap to gold. He finds pieces that can work for him. He's a massively underrated executive.
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Re: Jonathan Isaac for Derrick White 

Post#27 » by Cklbmk » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:04 pm

Catchall wrote:
dorkestra wrote:
Catchall wrote:Derrick White is near his ceiling as a player, imo. Jonathan Issac is just scratching the surface of his potential. White has turned out well for a late 1st-round pick, but there's an obvious reason Issac was drafted in the high lottery. Issac could be a DPOY-caliber defender and has and untapped offensive potential. Orlando wouldn't trade Issac for White. Not close.


I rate Isaac very high, but it seems the issue here would be your lack of appreciation for White. Near his ceiling as a player after only 84 games played in the NBA? Is it just because he is 25?


He's 25, and he's a limited athlete by NBA standards. His offensive efficiency is mediocre, and his PG skills are limited. Both those latter things can improve a little, but he's not remotely the prospect that Issac is. It would be like trading Issac for Evan Fournier.



Not sure if serious

Derrick Whites advanced stats last year(effectively his rookie year) are on par with Fournier's career best. On top of that White was our 3rd best defender last year vs Fournier being dead last among rotation players on his team..

It really feels like you've never actually watched White play or even looked at his metrics
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Re: Jonathan Isaac for Derrick White 

Post#28 » by Cklbmk » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:16 pm

Chinook wrote:
Magic_Johnny12 wrote:I do not trust any player playing in Pop's or Steven's system and will proceed with caution when trading with them.


This such an old take. Players who are good on the Spurs are good wherever else they play unless they are put in obviously bad positions. Danny Green was an elite three-and-D guy with SA, and he kept right on being that with Toronto. Grizz fans seem to love Anderson. Guys like Neal and Beli were (or are) flawed as Spurs just as much as they were with other teams. Neal's MKE stats were actually better than his stats with SA.

Jonathon Simmons sucks. He sucked with the Spurs too. I was very vocal in threads on this site about that fact when he left the Spurs. A number of posters thought I was just sour-grapesing and that the Spurs had let a key piece walk. He didn't actually play worse with Orlando. That's how he was everywhere he went. He was in the d-league for a reason. But guys like Reggie Miller hyped Simmons up so much that non-Spurs fans didn't bother paying attention.

I am not saying there aren't bad systems or even decent ones that just happen not to align with a player's strengths. But Pop doesn't turn crap to gold. He finds pieces that can work for him. He's a massively underrated executive.


Don't forget Dedmon, Baynes, Boban, Cojo, JaMychal Green, Sjax, George Hill, Mahinmi, or Beno Udrih. They all performed better upon leaving the Spurs.
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Re: Jonathan Isaac for Derrick White 

Post#29 » by BlazersBroncos » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:20 pm

White's better than Isaac though. That can't be discounted.


He is slightly better while being considerably older and developed in a much more stable environment.

2018/19
Derrick White 14.8 PER 3.6 WS 1.3 VORP TS 55%
Jonathan Isaac 13.0 PER 4.0 WS 1.1 VORP TS 53%

White had a great playoff series, and was underrated and treated like an afterthought until that series. But as a prospect you will be very hard pressed to find anyone that doesn't rock the black and silver thinking he is on par with Isaac. There is a noticeable gulf in the value between them.
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Re: Jonathan Isaac for Derrick White 

Post#30 » by Chinook » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:35 pm

BlazersBroncos wrote:
White's better than Isaac though. That can't be discounted.


He is slightly better while being considerably older and developed in a much more stable environment.

2018/19
Derrick White 14.8 PER 3.6 WS 1.3 VORP TS 55%
Jonathan Isaac 13.0 PER 4.0 WS 1.1 VORP TS 53%

White had a great playoff series, and was underrated and treated like an afterthought until that series. But as a prospect you will be very hard pressed to find anyone that doesn't rock the black and silver thinking he is on par with Isaac. There is a noticeable gulf in the value between them.


White is three years older than Isaac and has been in the league the same number of years. Age itself is not really the big factor people make it out to be. White is older than Wiggins, but the later has been in the league for five years (going on six) now and is way closer to maxing out his potential as a result. If Derrick were some 30-year-old former bust who carved out a career in Europe, I'd agree with you. But he's not, and his history suggests he still has a lot of growth.

I'm not uber interested in the RealGM "value" concept. If I were trying to propose this trade, I'd be more willing to consider this value difference. I'm not. I understand why Orlando wouldn't do this deal. But that reason has nothing to do with the esoteric marketplace that drives the value concept on this board. It's much more that they just don't have a reason to do a trade for a PG if they're giving up what they hope will be their best player.
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Re: Jonathan Isaac for Derrick White 

Post#31 » by tiderulz » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:07 pm

Chinook wrote:
BlazersBroncos wrote:Isaac has considerably more value given his unique measurable and age. I think he maxes out as a elite role player rather than a guy who can carry the scoring load, but an elite role player that can guard with his versatility and runs the floor like him is worth a lot more than White IMO.

Both are the type of young guys you want on your team, its just that one has a lot more value.


White's better than Isaac though. That can't be discounted. People keep talking about White being near his ceiling, and I think it's a lazy take. Like, sure, White isn't likely to get bigger or faster or jump higher. But he can already do those things at an above-average level. Things he can improve are his shooting from deep and his general game-to-game consistency. He does those things, he's not just some average point guard. He'd be among the top in the league.

Isaac was among my top prospects in his draft, so I certainly understand wanting to hold onto him above anyone else. What's the point in acquiring a strong young PG if you get rid of one of his best potential running mates to do it? But I think it's wrong to look at Isaac in terms of his ceiling and White in terms of his present when evaluating them.

is he? he is also 4 years older at 25 vs 21. I think I will take the younger player with the higher ceiling. If White at 25 can improve his shooting, Isaac at 21 can also improve.
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Re: Jonathan Isaac for Derrick White 

Post#32 » by Chinook » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:33 pm

tiderulz wrote:
Chinook wrote:
BlazersBroncos wrote:Isaac has considerably more value given his unique measurable and age. I think he maxes out as a elite role player rather than a guy who can carry the scoring load, but an elite role player that can guard with his versatility and runs the floor like him is worth a lot more than White IMO.

Both are the type of young guys you want on your team, its just that one has a lot more value.


White's better than Isaac though. That can't be discounted. People keep talking about White being near his ceiling, and I think it's a lazy take. Like, sure, White isn't likely to get bigger or faster or jump higher. But he can already do those things at an above-average level. Things he can improve are his shooting from deep and his general game-to-game consistency. He does those things, he's not just some average point guard. He'd be among the top in the league.

Isaac was among my top prospects in his draft, so I certainly understand wanting to hold onto him above anyone else. What's the point in acquiring a strong young PG if you get rid of one of his best potential running mates to do it? But I think it's wrong to look at Isaac in terms of his ceiling and White in terms of his present when evaluating them.

is he? he is also 4 years older at 25 vs 21. I think I will take the younger player with the higher ceiling. If White at 25 can improve his shooting, Isaac at 21 can also improve.


White is just over three years older than Isaac, who will be 22 within a month of the season's start. And yes, White is better than Isaac right now. No one ever said Jonathan can't improve, so I don't know why you brought that up. The point I was making is that people seem to be using what Isaac could be against what White is without acknowledging that White himself can improve. If White does those things, he'll be one of the top starters in the league, similar to Mike Conley. Isaac might have the potential to be better than that, but it involves him gaining skills he doesn't have now rather than just being more consistent.
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Re: Jonathan Isaac for Derrick White 

Post#33 » by Super Powered » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:14 pm

Issac will be ORL's best player in time. I'd either make Gordon play the 3 or trade him for the best package available, instead.
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Re: Jonathan Isaac for Derrick White 

Post#34 » by tiderulz » Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:32 am

Chinook wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
Chinook wrote:
White's better than Isaac though. That can't be discounted. People keep talking about White being near his ceiling, and I think it's a lazy take. Like, sure, White isn't likely to get bigger or faster or jump higher. But he can already do those things at an above-average level. Things he can improve are his shooting from deep and his general game-to-game consistency. He does those things, he's not just some average point guard. He'd be among the top in the league.

Isaac was among my top prospects in his draft, so I certainly understand wanting to hold onto him above anyone else. What's the point in acquiring a strong young PG if you get rid of one of his best potential running mates to do it? But I think it's wrong to look at Isaac in terms of his ceiling and White in terms of his present when evaluating them.

is he? he is also 4 years older at 25 vs 21. I think I will take the younger player with the higher ceiling. If White at 25 can improve his shooting, Isaac at 21 can also improve.


White is just over three years older than Isaac, who will be 22 within a month of the season's start. And yes, White is better than Isaac right now. No one ever said Jonathan can't improve, so I don't know why you brought that up. The point I was making is that people seem to be using what Isaac could be against what White is without acknowledging that White himself can improve. If White does those things, he'll be one of the top starters in the league, similar to Mike Conley. Isaac might have the potential to be better than that, but it involves him gaining skills he doesn't have now rather than just being more consistent.

probably because most players dont improve much after 25 yrs old. And I'm still not sold that White is better than Isaac. stats and advanced stats show some to White, some to Isaac. all bout evened out. And White needs to improve a lot more to be one of the top starters in the league.
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Re: Jonathan Isaac for Derrick White 

Post#35 » by Ducklett » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:29 am

If age doesn't matter and all that matters is years in the NBA, why is it that 2-4 year college players typically are more NBA ready both in skill and body size than 1 and dones on average?

Could it be that they are older, making their bodies and skills more mature and finished?
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Re: Jonathan Isaac for Derrick White 

Post#36 » by GreatSunnyNorth » Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:49 am

NotACat wrote:We're not trading for a PG until we see Fultz play


Both Fultz and White have the size to serve as combo guards, and they could actually complement each other well - Fultz as the primary playmaker, White the spot-up shooter and key defender.
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Re: Jonathan Isaac for Derrick White 

Post#37 » by Chinook » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:46 am

Ducklett wrote:If age doesn't matter and all that matters is years in the NBA, why is it that 2-4 year college players typically are more NBA ready both in skill and body size than 1 and dones on average?

Could it be that they are older, making their bodies and skills more mature and finished?


Is that even true? Or is it that the older players who are drafted are the ones who have developed bodies? There are certainly developed 19-year-olds like Zion and raw 23-year-olds like Clarke. RC specifically said that he thought White had a higher physical ceiling than he had in college. This was after the draft, so there's no retrospective there. The Spurs drafted him feeling he still had physical maturation left to do.
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Re: Jonathan Isaac for Derrick White 

Post#38 » by Chinook » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:52 am

tiderulz wrote:
Chinook wrote:
tiderulz wrote:is he? he is also 4 years older at 25 vs 21. I think I will take the younger player with the higher ceiling. If White at 25 can improve his shooting, Isaac at 21 can also improve.


White is just over three years older than Isaac, who will be 22 within a month of the season's start. And yes, White is better than Isaac right now. No one ever said Jonathan can't improve, so I don't know why you brought that up. The point I was making is that people seem to be using what Isaac could be against what White is without acknowledging that White himself can improve. If White does those things, he'll be one of the top starters in the league, similar to Mike Conley. Isaac might have the potential to be better than that, but it involves him gaining skills he doesn't have now rather than just being more consistent.

probably because most players dont improve much after 25 yrs old. And I'm still not sold that White is better than Isaac. stats and advanced stats show some to White, some to Isaac. all bout evened out. And White needs to improve a lot more to be one of the top starters in the league.


I don't know how many players improve after three or four years in the league. Age is how you get stuck with folks thinking Wiggins isn't a bust yet. Again, I'm not trying to force Magic fans to think trading Isaac for White is a good idea, but yeah. I'd feel more confident in a guy who already had the skills and just needed to get better consistency than a guy with neither the skills nor consistency. I think Isaac's physical profile is his best attribute and what makes him still a very interesting prospect, but I'm not convinced he'll ever be better than White, who up until this point has barely played a full season of games.
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Re: Jonathan Isaac for Derrick White 

Post#39 » by nzahir » Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:04 am

Spurs fans, would you take Kuzma for him?
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Re: Jonathan Isaac for Derrick White 

Post#40 » by NotACat » Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:44 am

GreatSunnyNorth wrote:
NotACat wrote:We're not trading for a PG until we see Fultz play


Both Fultz and White have the size to serve as combo guards, and they could actually complement each other well - Fultz as the primary playmaker, White the spot-up shooter and key defender.

We're not trading a great prospect in Isaac for a complimentary player on offense who at best is a 1-2 position defender. Isaac plays a much more important role on offense and I'll bank on him continuing to improve

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