Love for Batum idea.

[shrink]

Talented PFs are such a scarce commodity even injury prone old ones get paid.

What's the support for this assertion? Because we hear that with virtually all types of players and it really is almost never true. "Guys who can put up 20-10 in a season are so rare nowadays" is a way to pump up a guy like Julius Randle, but it leaves out all the holes in his game.

Randle's also only done it for like 1 year. Love consistently averages 17/9 with over 35% 3pt at a good number of attempts at that. That is very rare at PF/C position and to do it for several years makes that list even rarer.

No, he inconsistently averages 17/9, but he is paid like he provides that production consistently, healthy and ready to produce a typical number of nba games.

[pacers33granger]

Talented PFs are such a scarce commodity even injury prone old ones get paid.

What's the support for this assertion? Because we hear that with virtually all types of players and it really is almost never true. "Guys who can put up 20-10 in a season are so rare nowadays" is a way to pump up a guy like Julius Randle, but it leaves out all the holes in his game.

Randle's also only done it for like 1 year. Love consistently averages 17/9 with over 35% 3pt at a good number of attempts at that. That is very rare at PF/C position and to do it for several years makes that list even rarer.

I don't think you're understanding the point. A general "rarity" does not make value and I see no support for the argument that talented PFs get paid more based on this rarity.

Maybe this absurd graphic from last year will help illustrate the point better:
https://awfulannouncing.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/94/2018/02/Fox-Sports-Indiana-Graphic.jpg

[Revenged25]

I am not going to engage in this. I do not believe you are trying to troll me, but you are very locked into your way of thinking, and I disagree with the majority of it, for the reasons I’ve already mentioned.

A. Getting commensurate production for the price of a contract is a good thing. I do not believe Love is likely to be worth that contract, for CLE or anyone.

B. Getting off contracts that are bad values, even if the assets arise in a few years when Love is even less likely to be worth his deal, is a good thing.

C. Sexton, like most any rookie, may have done better later in the season, whether Love was there or not.

A. What players and what amount of production would we have gotten? Most options for PF the market don't fit the type of player the Cavs are looking for and even then, their production, and therefore value is limited by not fulfilling an actual need so becomes just another hindrance. Would I prefer Love to be healthy and play all 82 games every year, most definitely, but if he can play 60-65, he averaged about 65 games throughout his career he will be worth his contract based on what he brings compared to others at his position. There are less than 10 PF/Cs in the NBA that average 17/9 with over a 35.0 3pt% on over 3 attempts/game over multiple years. Everyone one of them that do are either maxed out already, ie Anthony Davis, on a rookie contract ie John Collins, or were free agents with massive injury and character issues, ie DeMarcus Cousins. I expect Love to play 60-65 games as his career averages suggest, and it be worth if for the Cavs.

B. It's only a bad contract if he can't get back to playing around 65 regular season games a year, which is his career average. Also Love's game isn't predicated on athleticism or even having a lot of energy, it's based on good shooting and being crafty/technique in rebounding. His game ages very well for what he expected to produce. If he keeps getting random injuries, it has very rarely been the same injury that's limited his games, then yes it's not going to work, but the Cavs also have nothing else to spend the money until his contract is about to expire and guys like Sexton start becoming eligible for extensions.

C. Sure but what we do know is that Sexton's improved play really started after the All-Star break when Love returned. He made some progress before Love returned, but once he did his play improved dramatically once Love returned, as did everyone else on the team as well. Osman for example improved by 1.6 ppg, from 32.7% to 38.8% on 3pters, and .8 apg more as well. Love improved the play of everyone on the team period, and it's been documented. I wish I could fine the article so I could get the exact numbers, but the Cavs were like 8 points better offensively with Love and even like 4 points better defensively surprisingly.

[Revenged25]

What's the support for this assertion? Because we hear that with virtually all types of players and it really is almost never true. "Guys who can put up 20-10 in a season are so rare nowadays" is a way to pump up a guy like Julius Randle, but it leaves out all the holes in his game.

Randle's also only done it for like 1 year. Love consistently averages 17/9 with over 35% 3pt at a good number of attempts at that. That is very rare at PF/C position and to do it for several years makes that list even rarer.

I don't think you're understanding the point. A general "rarity" does not make value and I see no support for the argument that talented PFs get paid more based on this rarity.

Maybe this absurd graphic from last year will help illustrate the point better:
https://awfulannouncing.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/94/2018/02/Fox-Sports-Indiana-Graphic.jpg

Difference is you increase the points at all and Thaddeus young gets dropped out completely. Move any of those other columns down even slightly and I'm sure the number of players increase drastically. The more limiting factors you add, the more you can remove people to fit your desired outcome. But if you are looking for a stretch PF what are you wanting from that position? Score points, Rebound, Ability to Shoot the 3 at a good rate and shoots often enough that it's a legit threat that needs respected. Those were the 4 stats I used to make my list. I bet if you removed any one of those 5 stats from that equation, the number of players that qualify for that list expands exponentially. Even lowering the requirements in a single one of those stats likely means the list expands exponentially. I simply used the specific areas that a stretch PF are expected to perform. If we add a defensive skill in there as well, like block shots, the list probably shrinks to 1 player.

[Revenged25]

What's the support for this assertion? Because we hear that with virtually all types of players and it really is almost never true. "Guys who can put up 20-10 in a season are so rare nowadays" is a way to pump up a guy like Julius Randle, but it leaves out all the holes in his game.

Randle's also only done it for like 1 year. Love consistently averages 17/9 with over 35% 3pt at a good number of attempts at that. That is very rare at PF/C position and to do it for several years makes that list even rarer.

No, he inconsistently averages 17/9, but he is paid like he provides that production consistently, healthy and ready to produce a typical number of nba games.

No he consistently averaged 17/9. Whether you want to look at career or just his time in Cleveland, maybe just the last year in Minny and prior to the past 2 years in Cleveland when he was playing 75+ games, he consistently averages those numbers.

[Stillwater]

1. I don’t ever buy the “but who can my team acquire?” line. First we are talking about trade value. Second, even if we weren’t, the eventual alternative of “nobody” is usually acceptable in these circumstances, because we have seen time and again how bad teams can sell cap space (and a whole lot easier than a Kevin Love size contract).

2. I am not giving Kevin Love credit for the development of Sexton. Rookies always start out bad, and they often get better simply as the season goes on. The fact that Love happened to be playing late in the season is correlation, not causation. Remember, Kevin Love has never even averaged 2.5 APG in any of his seasons in Cleveland.

3. I did not see an offer of Batum and two protected 1sts as trolling. In fact, considering the size and length of Love’s contract, his injury history, and his age, I actually thought it was an overpay. Please don’t label an offer you personally dislike as “trolling.” We can all have widely different views on player valuation (like we do here!). Inferring a malicious intent discourages discussion.

1. You said:

It’s magnified when a player’s massive salary prevents acquisition of other talented players to replace his minutes.

No where does that imply trade value. That is straight up, he has a massive salary so they can't sign players to take his minutes. So again, who would they acquire, in any aspect, that would take his minutes? Talented PFs are such a scarce commodity even injury prone old ones get paid. So please enlighten us.

2. Then you're just not wanting to pay attention. Can't find any better numbers but here is an article from March 13th
https://hoopshype.com/2019/03/13/cleveland-cavaliers-collin-sexton-kevin-love-scouting-report-analysis-injury-update/
So as you can see Sexton's improvement did coincide with Love's return. The entire team actually played better with Love back:
https://cavaliersnation.com/2019/03/19/cavs-playoffs-year-healthy-kevin-love/
Also you do realize that for the majority of those years LeBron James and Kyrie Irving were the primary ball handlers right? Would you really want to have the offense ran through Kevin Love than two of the best ISO players in the NBA? Seriously? Is this a real argument?

3. You aren't looking at it from Cleveland's perspective. What does it do for them?
Does it make them a better team? No.
Does it provide immediate youth/talent to the young core to develop? No, especially since those picks won't convey for years.
Does it provide a player that can help the young players develop and grow? No, it actually removes one.
Does it help the get under the luxury tax? No, they already are.
Does it help them clear up money to sign players in the future? No, they are already in good shape to do that with around 60 million in expiring contracts.
Does it provide an opportunity for someone younger with potential to grow with the core to takes Love's minutes at PF? No, they don't have any other players that can play PF for long periods of time at all, let alone a young player.
Does it hinder the growth of the young player? Yes, though it guarantees they keep their top 10 protected 1st this year, that's something, I guess.

THIS
CLE is not trading Kevin Love for the poor assessed values stamped on his resume around the league. F 'EM all if the injury risks continue to kill his trade value given his contract amount. CLE will keep Love for what he can do & not dump him for what he can't./

[Myth]

if he can play 60-65, he averaged about 65 games throughout his career he will be worth his contract based on what he brings compared to others at his position.

Just a quick fact check, but his career average is just under 60 games per regular season.

[Myth]

Randle's also only done it for like 1 year. Love consistently averages 17/9 with over 35% 3pt at a good number of attempts at that. That is very rare at PF/C position and to do it for several years makes that list even rarer.

No, he inconsistently averages 17/9, but he is paid like he provides that production consistently, healthy and ready to produce a typical number of nba games.

No he consistently averaged 17/9. Whether you want to look at career or just his time in Cleveland, maybe just the last year in Minny and prior to the past 2 years in Cleveland when he was playing 75+ games, he consistently averages those numbers.

I'm pretty sure he meant it was inconsistent simply because Love is inconsistently on the court. Everybody knows he puts those stats up once he is on the court.

[Revenged25]

3. You aren't looking at it from Cleveland's perspective. What does it do for them?
Does it make them a better team? No.
Does it provide immediate youth/talent to the young core to develop? No, especially since those picks won't convey for years.
Does it provide a player that can help the young players develop and grow? No, it actually removes one.
Does it help the get under the luxury tax? No, they already are.
Does it help them clear up money to sign players in the future? No, they are already in good shape to do that with around 60 million in expiring contracts.
Does it provide an opportunity for someone younger with potential to grow with the core to takes Love's minutes at PF? No, they don't have any other players that can play PF for long periods of time at all, let alone a young player.
Does it hinder the growth of the young player? Yes, though it guarantees they keep their top 10 protected 1st this year, that's something, I guess.

THIS
CLE is not trading Kevin Love for the poor assessed values stamped on his resume around the league. F 'EM all if the injury risks continue to kill his trade value given his contract amount. CLE will keep Love for what he can do & not dump him for what he can't./

I would like to add that this list of questions can be asked about any potential trade people post with just some slight modifications and would help decide if it makes sense, not just for Love, but anyone period. Run this scenario for both teams, if there are legit reasons to make the trade after following these steps, then it should be posted and discussed, if not, then don't do it.

Here are some examples:

Charlotte gets: Jordan Clarkson
-Although Charlotte replaced Walker with Rozier, Rozier won't be able to replace the scoring lost completely on his own as well as Charlotte lacking scorers in general. This also clears room at SF/PF for their last two lottery picks in Miles Bridges and PJ Washington to find more playing time and develop.
Cleveland Gets: MKG
-Cleveland's defense was horrendous last year and their depth at SF/PF his horrendous. They have Osman at SF and Love at PF and that's really it. Windler hopefully can develop into a SF but will still lack defensively this year at a minimu, and KPJ is more of a G/F so not a good fit either. This also provides someone who can handle the position defensively at PF for Cleveland as Osman struggled playing out of position last year.

Dallas get: Tristan Thompson
-Get a perimeter defender and elite rebounder to pair next to KP. This will allow KP to be more of a shot blocking rim protector on defense while also letting him put on full display his 3 point shooting knowing he has an elite offensive rebounder to get the team additional attempts.
Cleveland gets: Courtney Lee, Isaiah Roby, 2020 2nd
-Cleveland gets a developmental SF/PF in Roby as well as a likely buyout/waive candidate in Lee which would save the Cavs at least 4 million in salary just in regards to player salary, as well as a second round pick. This also alleviates some of the logjam at center for the Cavs.

[Revenged25]

if he can play 60-65, he averaged about 65 games throughout his career he will be worth his contract based on what he brings compared to others at his position.

Just a quick fact check, but his career average is just under 60 games per regular season.

my bad, bad mental math. I was seeing the 657 over 11 seasons and though 65. Though he could've played more last year but he was told to have the toe surgery that wasn't needed at the time and to take his rehab slower, as well as the lockout shortened '11-'12 season. Either way 60+ games is good enough.

[gom]

It's crucial to be empathetic to another team's perspective when outlining trades. Every Cav fan is saying "no," and there is a simple reason: Love remains an important player in Cleveland. I think he may be *more* important than before actually, especially in his leadership role. Cleveland is not far from putting together a competitive team (they've cleared the future cap space they will need), and Love should play an important role then too. Trading him for Batum is a bit of a betrayal to the fans and the players.

[taikibansei]

1. I don’t ever buy the “but who can my team acquire?” line. First we are talking about trade value. Second, even if we weren’t, the eventual alternative of “nobody” is usually acceptable in these circumstances, because we have seen time and again how bad teams can sell cap space (and a whole lot easier than a Kevin Love size contract).

2. I am not giving Kevin Love credit for the development of Sexton. Rookies always start out bad, and they often get better simply as the season goes on. The fact that Love happened to be playing late in the season is correlation, not causation. Remember, Kevin Love has never even averaged 2.5 APG in any of his seasons in Cleveland.

3. I did not see an offer of Batum and two protected 1sts as trolling. In fact, considering the size and length of Love’s contract, his injury history, and his age, I actually thought it was an overpay. Please don’t label an offer you personally dislike as “trolling.” We can all have widely different views on player valuation (like we do here!). Inferring a malicious intent discourages discussion.

1. You said:

It’s magnified when a player’s massive salary prevents acquisition of other talented players to replace his minutes.

No where does that imply trade value. That is straight up, he has a massive salary so they can't sign players to take his minutes. So again, who would they acquire, in any aspect, that would take his minutes? Talented PFs are such a scarce commodity even injury prone old ones get paid. So please enlighten us.

2. Then you're just not wanting to pay attention. Can't find any better numbers but here is an article from March 13th
https://hoopshype.com/2019/03/13/cleveland-cavaliers-collin-sexton-kevin-love-scouting-report-analysis-injury-update/
So as you can see Sexton's improvement did coincide with Love's return. The entire team actually played better with Love back:
https://cavaliersnation.com/2019/03/19/cavs-playoffs-year-healthy-kevin-love/
Also you do realize that for the majority of those years LeBron James and Kyrie Irving were the primary ball handlers right? Would you really want to have the offense ran through Kevin Love than two of the best ISO players in the NBA? Seriously? Is this a real argument?

3. You aren't looking at it from Cleveland's perspective. What does it do for them?
Does it make them a better team? No.
Does it provide immediate youth/talent to the young core to develop? No, especially since those picks won't convey for years.
Does it provide a player that can help the young players develop and grow? No, it actually removes one.
Does it help the get under the luxury tax? No, they already are.
Does it help them clear up money to sign players in the future? No, they are already in good shape to do that with around 60 million in expiring contracts.
Does it provide an opportunity for someone younger with potential to grow with the core to takes Love's minutes at PF? No, they don't have any other players that can play PF for long periods of time at all, let alone a young player.
Does it hinder the growth of the young player? Yes, though it guarantees they keep their top 10 protected 1st this year, that's something, I guess.

I am not going to engage in this. I do not believe you are trying to troll me, but you are very locked into your way of thinking, and I disagree with the majority of it, for the reasons I’ve already mentioned.

A. Getting commensurate production for the price of a contract is a good thing. I do not believe Love is likely to be worth that contract, for CLE or anyone.

B. Getting off contracts that are bad values, even if the assets arise in a few years when Love is even less likely to be worth his deal, is a good thing.

C. Sexton, like most any rookie, may have done better later in the season, whether Love was there or not.

I highlight the above to illustrate yet again how fans so often apply different valuation sets to players on other teams as opposed to on their own.

Basically, Cleveland fans--with the exception of the OP (who starts threads on this same topic with regularity)--have written again and again that they do not believe their team should seek to trade Kevin Love while his value is so low. In other words, Cleveland fans want to do the same thing with Love that you, Shrink, want to see the Twolves do with Wiggins.

Given your firm stance on not trading Wiggins low--e.g., no bad contracts (CP3) back and no additional assets (first round picks, Covington, etc.) included--I'm not sure I understand what issue you could possibly have with the Cavs doing similarly? They seem to have no interest in just dumping Love now for a crap return (let alone adding assets to make it possible). Quite frankly, I think it more likely that Love bounces back this coming year to 60+ games and above average production--potentially increasing his trade value--than Wiggins even playing to the league average for his position...particularly as Wiggins has never played to the league average for his position. However, it's a calculated risk for both teams--and I can certainly understand the rationale for both teams deciding to take this risk.

[shrink]

In other words, Cleveland fans want to do the same thing with Love that you, Shrink, want to see the Twolves do with Wiggins.

Given your firm stance on not trading Wiggins low--e.g., no bad contracts (CP3) back and no additional assets (first round picks, Covington, etc.) included--I'm not sure I understand what issue you could possibly have with the Cavs doing similarly?

Wrong again, and putting words in other people’s mouths again.

Don’t confuse what I think they will do with Wiggins with what I think they should do with Wiggins.

I still chuckle when I remember when you accused me (of all people) from “multiple posts” of saying Wiggins was highly valuable!

[amcoolio]

No

[taikibansei]

In other words, Cleveland fans want to do the same thing with Love that you, Shrink, want to see the Twolves do with Wiggins.

Given your firm stance on not trading Wiggins low--e.g., no bad contracts (CP3) back and no additional assets (first round picks, Covington, etc.) included--I'm not sure I understand what issue you could possibly have with the Cavs doing similarly?

Wrong again, and putting words in other people’s mouths again.

Really?

Even though I see Wiggins as a worse contract if I’m MIN, I wouldn’t even do Wiggins for Paul straight up.

Paul is owed $124 mil for three years and Wiggins $122 for four years, so about the same total dollars. Yes, MIN would get out of the Wiggins deal earlier, but only by spending the difference up front over the next three years.

OKC may want to get younger, but MIN wants to be young also. The moves they made this summer were to discard their vets, and bring in younger players that match KAT’s timeline. (OUT: Taj Gibson, Luol Deng, Bayless, Saric (to move up in the draft), Tyus Jones, Derrick Rose. IN: Jake Layman, Noah Vonleh, Napier, Treveon Graham, Jordan Bell, Culver, Nowell, and Naz Reid). I truly wonder how posters can make these win-now trade posts without completely ignoring what Rosas is doing - Win later, get younger.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1878573&p=77961744#p77961744

I think Domejandro is the only Wolves fan willing to give up multiple picks for a slightly higher (but very brief) ceiling, adding injury-prone, aging ex-stars at the cost of longterm franchise damage.

This new MIN team has no depth, starts a rookie, and every Rosas addition was building for the future. All the bench are young players who will be destroyed by every other team, even before the inevitable injuries to Paul and Blake push some of them into the starting line up.

Chris Paul / Shabazz Napier
Jarrett Culver / Josh Okogie
Robert Covington / Jake Layman / Keita Bates-Diop
Blake Griffin / Jordan Bell / Keita Bates-Diop
Karl-Anthony Towns / Noah Vonleh / Naz Reid

And with less picks and the Stephen Rule, MIN doesn’t have the trade assets to fix the problem.

Worse, while the team would be better this year if both stay healthy, this is a horrible deal for Karl-Anthony Towns. Rosas has made every effort to engage Towns as the leader of this team, getting rid of all the vets, replacing them entirely with youth, and avoiding an alpha personality. This deal is the opposite. And even worse than that, I think we can all agree that these bad contracts will be far worse a few years down the line - when Towns would have the leverage to ask to be traded.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1877631&p=77914794#p77914794

We are at best, a borderline playoff team, but it’d probably be a little better for the team longterm if we missed the playoffs. We are certainly not a win-now contender.

Therefore, I see no reason whatsoever to try to trade Wiggins right now. Moving him now won’t change this season significantly, and waiting a year will reduce the cost of a trade, as his deal shortens, and teams realize they gave out some bad contracts this summer. It could reduce it even further if he improves, and it’s hard to think he will do worse. Why sell at his worst possible price, without some compelling and immediate need to do so?

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=1846341&p=77295363#p77295363

It feels like a double-standard when a crowd of people say “Wiggins has failed so much, he has zero upside!”

If a MIN fan agreed, he could say, “Okay, well then at least next year his bad deal will be shorter, so his trade value will improve,”

Then we’d get the response: “Oh no! His value can get lower because he still has upside, but only this year!”

If a MIN fan agreed, we would then hear again, “Oh No! Wiggins has failed so much, he has zero upside!”

One of these two positions is correct, and posters are free to believe what they want. However, beware any MIN poster who endorses either side - they will get buried!

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1877235&p=77914674#p77914674

The T'Wolves would need to send those 2 picks just to move Wiggins' contract, how the hell does that also get them Blake Griffin.

Blake Griffin is 30, and he’s paid $34,234,964, $36,595,996, and a player option for $38,957,028 his final season. He played tremendously for the Pistons, and I applaud them for taking that gamble. However, for the next three years, that is still not a positive contract.

As for how much it would take in real life to move Wiggins, there is a lot of debate here on that, but we can set aside the issue here. Gersson Rosas is set on adding players that are KAT’s age. He didn’t even make a call on Westbrook (30), or Chris Paul (34), and we know he went after DeAngelo Russell (23). I don’t think that the Wolves want to give up future picks or assets to move Wiggins now - and if they do, it will be for a young player for the future, not Trade Board matchings like Blake, or Derozan, or Westbrook, or Chris Paul.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1877472&p=77903769#p77903769

It would cost too many assets for MIN to make a fair offer to ORL for their best player, AND dump Wiggins.

If Wiggins was going to get dealt, it would have been in the first week of free agency, before teams had consolidated rosters and finances. MIN needs to keep it’s young assets to see what Rosas can do.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1877235&p=77891049#p77891049

I appreciate that the Wolves have a trade here that isn’t trying to foist some elderly star on us, but “moving Wiggins” and “staying competitive” do not seem to be the Wolves priorities this season:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1874838&p=77779959#p77779959

Paul is the much bigger risk to KAT than Wiggins ever will be. Several of those reasons why are listed above.

Plus you included two 1sts, and MIN needs upside.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1874118&p=77740539#p77740539

I have to say that I am a little shocked that posters continue to think Chris Paul is a fit in MIN. I’ve tried to come up with a reason for this, and the best I can do is that MIN doesn’t have a great PG, and that Wiggins is a bad contract.

That said, it’s hard for me to think of a worse fit next to KAT than Chris Paul.

1. Age is not a fit. MIN wants every move to be around the 23 year old KAT — Paul is 34.

2. Salary is not a fit. Just because he and Wiggins have bad contracts, doesn’t mean MIN should swap them.

3. Attitude is not a fit - after Jimmy, MIN is not going to bring in another alpha dog with KAT who doesn’t want to be there.

4. Team direction is the complete opposite of every move Rosas has made this summer. They added zero vets, and removed every one of their own (Taj, Tolliver, Bayless, Luol Deng, Derrick Rose), and added youth at all five positions.

5. Why do people think MIN can afford to be throwing away picks, or young players like Okogie or Culver on win-now players?

MIN is unlikely to contend. In the tough West this year, and even if they were, contending for a single season, then carrying more bad salary on a declining player is not the right course for KAT. They need to develop slowly, and resist quick fix trades. KAT is on a five year deal - they need to be starting to peak in year 3, not trade for a guy who will be 36 and making $41 mil that year.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1874118&p=77740401#p77740401

Etc., etc.

[taikibansei]

Two final points:

First, shrink, I haven't criticized either you or your team, so please don't take any of this personally.

Second, as I've written repeatedly on this and other threads, I understand why Twolves fans don't think their team should deal Wiggins now when his value is so low. I am just pointing out that the Cavs seem to feel similarly about Love. Seems fair to me.

[shrink]

I have Wiggins as the second worst contract in the NBA, Chris Paul is third. However, I don’t think MIn would make that swap. Above all, The Wolves can not afford a repeat of the Jimmy Butler era, and alienate Towns. You won’t see me advocate a deal with Chris Paul, or another alpha player, and that’s a position that a local sportswriter has said is a big issue behind the scenes.

Now, if the offer is Batum (who I am down on) and two picks, I am certainly not going to say they are “trolling” our fan base.

Incidentally, I have Love and Blake both on worse deals than Batum, because of the length of the deal and the risk of future decline in production. Nobody came here to this thread to talk about Wiggins.

[bigmean]

If you add osman then the deal makes alot sense in terms of value.

Does Cleveland move him?

[jbk1234]

If you add osman then the deal makes alot sense in terms of value.

Does Cleveland move him?

No. They don't.

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