San Antonio rebuild (w/Atlanta, Detroit, Portland)

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Re: San Antonio rebuild (w/Atlanta, Detroit, Portland) 

Post#61 » by 21 TD » Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:05 am

Cklbmk wrote:Those arn't rebuild packages though

Jaylen fit the hole created when Kawhi left perfectly and Simmons and Embiid were already better than Derozan


They were. Just because Brown and Ingram had played 1 season in college and 2 in the NBA, they were still essentially prospects.


DeBlazerRiddem wrote:I always wonder what is going on when someone starts trashing a player after trying to trade for them and being told they aren't offering enough. Like, why are you trying to trade for him then lol, you aren't fooling anyone.

Its an old shtick, you aren't going to convince anyone he isn't great so why don't we just trade him to the Spurs, they would be happy to take that scrub off our hands.


So I trashed him by calling him an elite role player (if he can regain form) and saying he's not one of the 3 best centers in the league? Wow.
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Re: San Antonio rebuild (w/Atlanta, Detroit, Portland) 

Post#62 » by Brandon-Clyde » Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:17 am

21 TD wrote:
Cklbmk wrote:Those arn't rebuild packages though

Jaylen fit the hole created when Kawhi left perfectly and Simmons and Embiid were already better than Derozan


They were. Just because Brown and Ingram had played 1 season in college and 2 in the NBA, they were still essentially prospects.


DeBlazerRiddem wrote:I always wonder what is going on when someone starts trashing a player after trying to trade for them and being told they aren't offering enough. Like, why are you trying to trade for him then lol, you aren't fooling anyone.

Its an old shtick, you aren't going to convince anyone he isn't great so why don't we just trade him to the Spurs, they would be happy to take that scrub off our hands.


So I trashed him by calling him an elite role player (if he can regain form) and saying he's not one of the 3 best centers in the league? Wow.

You called him an "outdated archetype" and then listed 3 centers with "etc" after it(suggesting there are an unknown number of centers better than him). BTW before his leg was broken he was playing at an all star level
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Re: San Antonio rebuild (w/Atlanta, Detroit, Portland) 

Post#63 » by JRoy » Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:35 am

21 TD wrote:
JRoy wrote:You can think it all you want. No one is giving up a player like Nurkic for the privilege of paying Aldridge twice as much to be less effective.

Aldridge has some value, and that value is closer to a late 1st round pick and minor assets than Nurkic.

If that is the price for LMA he can retire in SA and good luck to both, no hard feelings. If he wants to compete for a title it will be somewhere else.


"No one" doesn't comprise you and a few others on a message board.

"A player like Nurkic", aka a somewhat outdated archetype, who has battled weight issues and inconsistency throughout his career and just broke his leg and might never be the same again . . . you act like he's Jokic, Embiid, Towns, etc.

Circumstances dictate value. Was Leonard's and Green's value DeRozan, Poeltl and a top 20 protected 1st or did it devolve into that when he intentionally tanked his value to screw the franchise who helped make him?


And yet you want him.

Leonard was an expiring contract who offered no guarantee to re-sign.

Nurkic is locked up on a contract in the Patty Mills while being twice the player.

Not the same thing.

At all.
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Re: San Antonio rebuild (w/Atlanta, Detroit, Portland) 

Post#64 » by JB2 » Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:08 am

Man this just tells you how bad of a job Pop and RC did with trading Kawhi.
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Re: San Antonio rebuild (w/Atlanta, Detroit, Portland) 

Post#65 » by Warspite » Sat Aug 24, 2019 3:28 am

Cklbmk wrote:
mattao313 wrote:
Cklbmk wrote:Not the Spurs way.

Pretty sure Gay is going to retire a Spur.

3 late 1sts and no even remotely relevant prospects just doesn't make sense for this. Especially the 5 for 2 trade with Pistons when we have a full roster. Also we wouldn't be lowering return with Mills if we're rebuilding. He'd just help us bring our culture to the next generation.

Pistons would need to give up Sekou to get Derozan.

Blazers trade just doesn't make sense either. Rather let LMA walk at the end of his contract than take a massive step back and waste Pop's last years.

We already have a pretty complete young core. Dejounte/White/Walker/Keldon/Luka/Poeltl all fit perfect. Sekou is the only player on the teams in these trades that really fits in the core.


The only way something like this makes sense is if Pop retires before the trade deadline. Otherwise he's earned the right to go out with the best team possible.

Derozan isnt worth sekou or a unprotected 1st, he can opt out at the end of the season


Nothing else gets him to pistons.


The Pistons dont need/desire him. This is a Spurs fire sale.
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Re: San Antonio rebuild (w/Atlanta, Detroit, Portland) 

Post#66 » by Chinook » Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:35 am

Warspite wrote:
Cklbmk wrote:
mattao313 wrote:Derozan isnt worth sekou or a unprotected 1st, he can opt out at the end of the season


Nothing else gets him to pistons.


The Pistons dont need/desire him. This is a Spurs fire sale.


We have no proof Detroit doesn't want him, but the closest we got is that a rumor/report that they called SA asking after him. I understand that you don't think he's worth it, and you're correct that under the random constraints of this thread, SA wouldn't have leverage. But I don't think Detroit could realistically acquire DeRozan without paying something SA really wants. The reality is that the Pistons don't have leverage and probably like DeRozan a decent amount, and SA isn't likely to move him any time soon.

Not telling you to believe in DeRozan. A lot of Spurs fans don't. But of all teams where it seems unlikely that they agree with that idea, the Pistons have to be in the top two or three.
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Re: San Antonio rebuild (w/Atlanta, Detroit, Portland) 

Post#67 » by JRoy » Sat Aug 24, 2019 3:32 pm

LMA and DD both have some value to contending teams.

They do not have enough value to secure unprotected picks or young high upside players.
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Re: San Antonio rebuild (w/Atlanta, Detroit, Portland) 

Post#68 » by Chinook » Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:10 pm

JRoy wrote:LMA and DD both have some value to contending teams.

They do not have enough value to secure unprotected picks or young high upside players.


Eh, they probably do. They aren't getting Zion obviously. But most mid-round players are probably getable. Someone like Zach Collins or Doumbouya is definitely not too much to ask. I understand fans wanting to keep those guys for sure, but I think most teams believe they'll be more JJ Hicksons or if they are lucky George Hills than they'll be true building blocks.
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Re: San Antonio rebuild (w/Atlanta, Detroit, Portland) 

Post#69 » by 21 TD » Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:31 pm

Brandon-Clyde wrote:You called him an "outdated archetype" and then listed 3 centers with "etc" after it(suggesting there are an unknown number of centers better than him). BTW before his leg was broken he was playing at an all star level


I said somewhat and there are more than 3 centers better than him. In theory he was playing at an All-Star level. In reality, he never received serious consideration.

It's funny, Aldridge beat out not only him but Gobert out for a spot, but he supposedly lacks credibility because of certain catch all metrics, which coaches repeatedly overlook yet somehow it's not believable that a president/GM would.


JRoy wrote:And yet you want him.

Leonard was an expiring contract who offered no guarantee to re-sign.

Nurkic is locked up on a contract in the Patty Mills while being twice the player.

Not the same thing.

At all.


I didn't say that, I said I think that's what it would take and I listed myriad reasons why.

He was also a top 5 player in the league and the current most desirable archetype.

He also plays the most oversaturated position in the league, has been inconsistent throughout his career and just broke his leg.
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Re: San Antonio rebuild (w/Atlanta, Detroit, Portland) 

Post#70 » by Cklbmk » Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:55 pm

JB2 wrote:Man this just tells you how bad of a job Pop and RC did with trading Kawhi.



Wasn't a better offer on the table tbh.

Only other offer I remember that was even talked about was Smart sign and trade and picks which didn't give us what we needed.

In hindsight we probably could have got the Jimmy Butler deal which would have worked out nicely. But we'd have sucked last year with the injuries and without Demar's playmaking.

Ultimately it accomplished what we wanted despite being a big step backwards. Plus we will see how Keldon does. It could work out nicely for us if Keldon's defense translates as anticipated
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Re: San Antonio rebuild (w/Atlanta, Detroit, Portland) 

Post#71 » by JRoy » Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:48 pm

Chinook wrote:
JRoy wrote:LMA and DD both have some value to contending teams.

They do not have enough value to secure unprotected picks or young high upside players.


Eh, they probably do. They aren't getting Zion obviously. But most mid-round players are probably getable. Someone like Zach Collins or Doumbouya is definitely not too much to ask. I understand fans wanting to keep those guys for sure, but I think most teams believe they'll be more JJ Hicksons or if they are lucky George Hills than they'll be true building blocks.


I understand SA fans wanting to maximize return on LMA and DD; they do have some value. No team holding lottery picks us going to mortgage the future for aging players like them.

I think an offer like Whiteside and a lottery protected 2020 1st is fair for both parties. Not a young talent like Nurkic.
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Re: San Antonio rebuild (w/Atlanta, Detroit, Portland) 

Post#72 » by 21 TD » Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:02 pm

I don't get why you're ignoring the fact that the Spurs aren't interested in a traditional re-build, as well as the reality that Aldridge and Nurkic can't play together in most matchups and having your top 3 options at 4 and 5 all being centers is illogical.

Since they're unlikely to receive what he's worth to them (given their desire to remain competitive while re-building on the fly) and his archetype ages best, I suspect the Spurs will only even explore trading Aldridge if he requests it.

Whiteside and a 1st likely to end up early 20s, makes more sense for Love.
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Re: San Antonio rebuild (w/Atlanta, Detroit, Portland) 

Post#73 » by jbk1234 » Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:32 pm

I'm not entirely sure that an extended DeRozan would have more trade value than a potentially expiring DeRozan.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: San Antonio rebuild (w/Atlanta, Detroit, Portland) 

Post#74 » by JRoy » Sun Aug 25, 2019 12:20 am

21 TD wrote:I don't get why you're ignoring the fact that the Spurs aren't interested in a traditional re-build, as well as the reality that Aldridge and Nurkic can't play together in most matchups and having your top 3 options at 4 and 5 all being centers is illogical.

Since they're unlikely to receive what he's worth to them (given their desire to remain competitive while re-building on the fly) and his archetype ages best, I suspect the Spurs will only even explore trading Aldridge if he requests it.

Whiteside and a 1st likely to end up early 20s, makes more sense for Love.


I’m not ignoring SA’s position. I’m pointing out that your expectations for the return for an Aldridge trade are unrealistic.
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Re: San Antonio rebuild (w/Atlanta, Detroit, Portland) 

Post#75 » by JB2 » Sun Aug 25, 2019 5:31 pm

Cklbmk wrote:
JB2 wrote:Man this just tells you how bad of a job Pop and RC did with trading Kawhi.



Wasn't a better offer on the table tbh.

Only other offer I remember that was even talked about was Smart sign and trade and picks which didn't give us what we needed.

In hindsight we probably could have got the Jimmy Butler deal which would have worked out nicely. But we'd have sucked last year with the injuries and without Demar's playmaking.

Ultimately it accomplished what we wanted despite being a big step backwards. Plus we will see how Keldon does. It could work out nicely for us if Keldon's defense translates as anticipated


I guess my point is that they should have gone for a rebuilding package which is what Pop so vehemently fought against the idea of and instead took package he felt like could sneak him into the playoffs which was to the detriment of the franchise long term.
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Re: San Antonio rebuild (w/Atlanta, Detroit, Portland) 

Post#76 » by 21 TD » Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:57 pm

JRoy wrote:I’m not ignoring SA’s position. I’m pointing out that your expectations for the return for an Aldridge trade are unrealistic.


The proposal clearly ignores their position and so are yours.
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Re: San Antonio rebuild (w/Atlanta, Detroit, Portland) 

Post#77 » by JRoy » Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:22 am

You want lottery picks.

SA will get those when they miss the playoffs, not for DD or LMA.
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Re: San Antonio rebuild (w/Atlanta, Detroit, Portland) 

Post#78 » by DeBlazerRiddem » Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:22 am

21 TD wrote:
JRoy wrote:I’m not ignoring SA’s position. I’m pointing out that your expectations for the return for an Aldridge trade are unrealistic.


The proposal clearly ignores their position and so are yours.


Dude, the proposal is not ignoring their position, its talking about one component of trade value and you are talking about another and seem to be confusing the two. I'll make it simple:

You see, there are two components to trade value:
1. What it would take to get a team to trade a player
2. What other teams would offer for that player

99.9% of the time these do not match. I want to reiterate that because no one should take offense if 1 and 2 don't match, it just means there is no deal to be made.

Now we love to get your opinion on #1 for the Spurs because you (and other SAS fans) can help us best determine that aspect.

But if they are talking about #2 then there is no reason for you to talk about them ignoring SAS because it is all about what other teams are thinking.

So JRoy - when he is talking about the expectations for an Aldridge return - is talking clearly about #2.
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Re: San Antonio rebuild (w/Atlanta, Detroit, Portland) 

Post#79 » by 21 TD » Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:30 am

JRoy wrote:You want lottery picks.

SA will get those when they miss the playoffs, not for DD or LMA.


I never said that and Nurkic's value probably isn't commensurate with that of a lottery pick.

Nearly one full season of top 50 player caliber play doesn't supersede the broken leg or being a somewhat outdated archetype at the most over saturated position.
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Re: San Antonio rebuild (w/Atlanta, Detroit, Portland) 

Post#80 » by JRoy » Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:45 am

Top 50 is probably about right for Nurkic. He has come a long way since his rookie season. In the long and storied tradition of talented Blazer big men basketball fans wonder how his health will impact his career.

And I do understand wanting to maximize value; everyone wants that. There is just of opinion in terms of where that value lies.

Portland took Collins in the lottery and views him accordingly. This year is likely to see whether he can live up to it or not.

As an exercise, what teams likely to be in the lottery would rather have Aldridge than a shot at a franchise player in the draft.

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