Dallas-Toronto Mid-season Trade

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Re: Dallas-Toronto Mid-season Trade 

Post#21 » by Asif16 » Thu Sep 5, 2019 2:50 pm

babyjax13 wrote:
Asif16 wrote:
babyjax13 wrote:
Sub $3 million
James Ennis
Iman Shumpert
Jerian Grant
Bryn Forbes
Lance Stephenson
Alec Burks
Wes Matthews

Sub $5 million
Reggie Bullock
KCP
Dorian Finney-Smith
Garrett Temple
Justin Holiday
Daniel House

Sub $9 million
KCP
Rodney Hood
Wayne Ellington

Just a quick list of inconsistent shooters who aren't complete sieves on defense. Some in each category are about as good as Powell, and it seems to me he should be making about $4-5 million a year, but certainly not $10 million. Replace him with anyone on the 'sub $3 million' list and Toronto wins a similar amount of games next season.

Also, I believe Holiday is the only one who wasn't a free agent this offseason.


Some of these names are just disrespectful to be comparing to Norman Powell. Your value of Powell is hilarious low if you think this


Maybe you looked at the least and not the text. But yah, my valuation of him is low (well, negative), right where it should be. I'd take Shumpert on the minimum and be ok with that downgrade (which isn't immense) before taking Powell on his contract.


This is ridiculous. There's no way Powell is is considered a negative value contract after the Season he just had. I dont disagree is contract is a little much but to go and say Iman Shumpert will provide the same type of numbers is ludicrous
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Re: Dallas-Toronto Mid-season Trade 

Post#22 » by pacers33granger » Thu Sep 5, 2019 3:05 pm

Snell is a really good comparison for Powell's value. They had pretty comparable seasons by most metrics. Snell took a first to move but had one less year on his deal than Powell. As babyjax points out, you can get similar production much cheaper so teams will need something to sweeten a deal.
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Re: Dallas-Toronto Mid-season Trade 

Post#23 » by BlazersBroncos » Thu Sep 5, 2019 3:27 pm

It is absolutely not ludicrous to say Iman and Powell are comparable.

2018/19
IS 9.1 PER 1.4 WS, -1.4 BPM, 0.2 VORP
NP 13.3 PER, 2.4 WS, -0.7 BPM, 0.4 VORP

Powell is better, but is he Vet Min vs 10M per better?

For the record, I don't think Powell is somewhere between neutral and slightly negative value. This is a changing NBA where middle tier guys just are not worth much. Its a MAX and MIN type landscape.
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Re: Dallas-Toronto Mid-season Trade 

Post#24 » by CoachD » Thu Sep 5, 2019 3:54 pm

First off, this is robbery for the Mavs, and Masai's mamma didn't raise no fool.

Secondly, I'm so tired of people calling Norm EXTREMELY over paid.
Yes, in the 2017-18 season when that extension kicked in, it looked TERRIBLE - because Casey had stopped playing him altogether.

Last season, he was the Raps top wing off the bench, and evolved into a dependable scorer and defender (ESPECIALLY in the playoffs).

Look around the league at guys making what Norm is currently making. I'm not talking about guys making WAY LESS because they are rookies who haven't gotten paid yet ... I'm talking about guys on their second deal in that price range. How many of them are more valuable and bring more to the table? Very few
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Re: Dallas-Toronto Mid-season Trade 

Post#25 » by BlazersBroncos » Thu Sep 5, 2019 3:59 pm

I understand TOR not valuing him as much based on age and the inevitable TOR rebuild, but to me Maxi is getting overlooked here. He is a terrific defender and has a passable 3PT shot. I think he ends up the Mavs starting C. He brings more than Powell who is only above average at one thing, albeit really good at that thing, which is the PNR on offense.
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Re: Dallas-Toronto Mid-season Trade 

Post#26 » by CoachD » Thu Sep 5, 2019 4:29 pm

BlazersBroncos wrote:I understand TOR not valuing him as much based on age and the inevitable TOR rebuild, but to me Maxi is getting overlooked here. He is a terrific defender and has a passable 3PT shot. I think he ends up the Mavs starting C. He brings more than Powell who is only above average at one thing, albeit really good at that thing, which is the PNR on offense.



He's also above average on defense ... go ask Paul George, Chris Paul or Russell Westbrook.
He's also evolved into an above average shooter.
He's also very dangerous on the break.
He's also become very good at moving without the ball and finding easy looks.

He's horribly undervalued on this board
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Re: Dallas-Toronto Mid-season Trade 

Post#27 » by BlazersBroncos » Thu Sep 5, 2019 4:39 pm

I was talking about Dwight Powell, should have clarified that.
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Re: Dallas-Toronto Mid-season Trade 

Post#28 » by CoachD » Thu Sep 5, 2019 4:46 pm

[gfycat][/gfycat]
BlazersBroncos wrote:I was talking about Dwight Powell, should have clarified that.



Why is Dwight in the conversation?
He wasn't referenced in the trade
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Re: Dallas-Toronto Mid-season Trade 

Post#29 » by mademan » Thu Sep 5, 2019 7:00 pm

pacers33granger wrote:Snell is a really good comparison for Powell's value. They had pretty comparable seasons by most metrics. Snell took a first to move but had one less year on his deal than Powell. As babyjax points out, you can get similar production much cheaper so teams will need something to sweeten a deal.


I dont doubt this. But Raps are out of lux tax now. Theyre not trading a guy other teams think has negative value as negative value. Theres no benefit to Toronto 'getting out from under his contract'. I'm not sure of the value of FVV for Curry/Max, but if people think FVV has more value, then Raps arent going to add Powell to balance it out.
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Re: Dallas-Toronto Mid-season Trade 

Post#30 » by Texas Chuck » Thu Sep 5, 2019 9:31 pm

Norm Powell isn't good. Not sure why anyone is arguing this. He's certainly not worth his contract and it's insulting to us all to argue otherwise

But Van Vleet is the best, most valuable piece in the deal and Toronto shouldn't be looking to take him and turn him into 3 lessor role players.
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Re: Dallas-Toronto Mid-season Trade 

Post#31 » by Swish1906 » Fri Sep 6, 2019 8:57 am

Easy pass for the Mavs.

With Luka and Brunson they have zero need for extra playmaking. They need Seths Elite Shooting (last year Mavs we're #27 in 3p Shooting) and Klebers all around game and rim protection much more...
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Re: Dallas-Toronto Mid-season Trade 

Post#32 » by Duffman100 » Fri Sep 6, 2019 11:46 am

Texas Chuck wrote:Norm Powell isn't good. Not sure why anyone is arguing this. He's certainly not worth his contract and it's insulting to us all to argue otherwise

But Van Vleet is the best, most valuable piece in the deal and Toronto shouldn't be looking to take him and turn him into 3 lessor role players.


Powell isn't good. But he also isn't bad. The argument was that his contract isn't an extreme overpay. Just an overpay.
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Re: Dallas-Toronto Mid-season Trade 

Post#33 » by babyjax13 » Sat Sep 7, 2019 2:06 am

Duffman100 wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:Norm Powell isn't good. Not sure why anyone is arguing this. He's certainly not worth his contract and it's insulting to us all to argue otherwise

But Van Vleet is the best, most valuable piece in the deal and Toronto shouldn't be looking to take him and turn him into 3 lessor role players.


Powell isn't good. But he also isn't bad. The argument was that his contract isn't an extreme overpay. Just an overpay.


Paid double what he's worth for three years...that seems pretty bad. I'm not saying he's Wiggins, but people are trying to spin him as a positive value contract.
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Re: Dallas-Toronto Mid-season Trade 

Post#34 » by Duffman100 » Sat Sep 7, 2019 2:50 am

babyjax13 wrote:
Duffman100 wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:Norm Powell isn't good. Not sure why anyone is arguing this. He's certainly not worth his contract and it's insulting to us all to argue otherwise

But Van Vleet is the best, most valuable piece in the deal and Toronto shouldn't be looking to take him and turn him into 3 lessor role players.


Powell isn't good. But he also isn't bad. The argument was that his contract isn't an extreme overpay. Just an overpay.


Paid double what he's worth for three years...that seems pretty bad. I'm not saying he's Wiggins, but people are trying to spin him as a positive value contract.


Nobody in this thread has tried to spin that.

But extreme overpay is Wiggins.

The people who do what Powell does for less money are mostly on rookie deals. Even still, there are only 10-15. When you consider 30 teams. The deal becomes more palatable.
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Re: Dallas-Toronto Mid-season Trade 

Post#35 » by babyjax13 » Sat Sep 7, 2019 2:53 am

Duffman100 wrote:
babyjax13 wrote:
Duffman100 wrote:
Powell isn't good. But he also isn't bad. The argument was that his contract isn't an extreme overpay. Just an overpay.


Paid double what he's worth for three years...that seems pretty bad. I'm not saying he's Wiggins, but people are trying to spin him as a positive value contract.


Nobody in this thread has tried to spin that.

But extreme overpay is Wiggins.

The people who do what Powell does for less money are mostly on rookie deals. Even still, there are only 10-15. When you consider 30 teams. The deal becomes more palatable.


I think we've established that there are about 15 players (at least) who can provide a rough approximation of what Powell does for much less that are *not* on rookie deals. Wings in the $4-6 million/year range are generally as good as or better than Powell, and there are plenty under $3 million who are relatively close.
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Re: Dallas-Toronto Mid-season Trade 

Post#36 » by Duffman100 » Sat Sep 7, 2019 2:48 pm

babyjax13 wrote:
Duffman100 wrote:
babyjax13 wrote:
Paid double what he's worth for three years...that seems pretty bad. I'm not saying he's Wiggins, but people are trying to spin him as a positive value contract.


Nobody in this thread has tried to spin that.

But extreme overpay is Wiggins.

The people who do what Powell does for less money are mostly on rookie deals. Even still, there are only 10-15. When you consider 30 teams. The deal becomes more palatable.


I think we've established that there are about 15 players (at least) who can provide a rough approximation of what Powell does for much less that are *not* on rookie deals. Wings in the $4-6 million/year range are generally as good as or better than Powell, and there are plenty under $3 million who are relatively close.


You established. Someone else countered that half the guys on your list weren't as good as Powell.

And again, you listed people at 5 million and 8 million. Norm make 10? 11? It's not a MASSIVE overpay. That's the argument. Are they overpaying him because they expected him to develop more? Yes. But it's not a massive overplay.

Even if you make the argument that 15 people are in that list. That's it, there you go. 30 teams, 15 players. 1 player for the wing rotation for every other team. That means someone like Powell and others like him are overpaid because you don't always have a player like that available
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Re: Dallas-Toronto Mid-season Trade 

Post#37 » by pacers33granger » Sat Sep 7, 2019 5:50 pm

Not every team needs a player on Powell's "level" so its not logical to say he's closer to fairly paid because well you have to have an 8th man and some of them have to be paid.
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Re: Dallas-Toronto Mid-season Trade 

Post#38 » by Pinkyring » Sun Sep 8, 2019 5:22 am

Pass for Dallas we are giving out better than what's coming in and we dont need another backup pg we already have 2 in Brunson and barea
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Re: Dallas-Toronto Mid-season Trade 

Post#39 » by jpengland » Sun Sep 8, 2019 5:59 am

From a Dallas point of view. I'm not giving up Maxi Kleber and I want no part of Norman Powell.

Maxi Kleber is more valuable than FVV. People will realise this year.
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Re: Dallas-Toronto Mid-season Trade 

Post#40 » by CoachD » Mon Sep 9, 2019 2:54 pm

Great so this trade is dead.

Now come back to it in February Mavs fans when you realize how good Norm and Fred look and you wished this trade actually happened
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