Chris Paul to Miami (featuring the Boston Celtics)

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Re: Chris Paul to Miami (featuring the Boston Celtics) 

Post#41 » by sonictecture » Wed Oct 9, 2019 10:46 pm

BBallFreak wrote:
sonictecture wrote:
gom wrote:
Miami will not contend by adding Chris Paul or Gordon Hayward or even both. That is just wishful thinking. At this stage, it's better for the Heat to build the team wisely.

It’s too late to build the right way. Butler is a 30 year old high mileage player on the max.

"Building the right way" is perhaps one of the worst phrases in basketball. Tell me, what is "the right way"? Don't answer that, because it's a trick question - ANY WAY THAT WINS YOU A RING IS THE RIGHT WAY! It's time people start realizing that.

As for the trade in question, you make it sound as though Miami is desperate. We're not. No matter how much you want us to be, we're not. If we were, Tyler Herro and Justise Winslow would probably be in OKC right now and we'd be looking at a duo of Russell Westbrook and Jimmy Butler. Instead, we signed Herro to his contract and watched Westboook go elsewhere. If we were desperate, Chris Paul would already be in Miami. And where is he? Not sunny South Florida, I'll tell you that much.

Chris Paul is not the only player out there. He's not the only guy who will realize he's in the wrong situation and might ask to be moved. He won't even be the only guy who lists Miami as one of his preferred destinations. So tell me, why should we cave on value for a guy with all his glaring warts when we don't have to? Why would we handicap ourselves by taking on that onerous contract when we can develop our young players and trade them for pieces that fit what we want to do better than Chris Paul?

Common sense should tell you that bullying a team into taking a contract they don't want doesn't generally work...

I agree with you for the most part on building the right way, but my point about the Heat Having some current limitations is true.

I’ve already mentioned that I think the Heat are smart to take the first 20 games of the season to survey their own team and the league before moving forward. You have acknowledged the Heat might trade for Paul. You trust Pat Riley.

It is not bullying to point out the side other from yours.
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Re: Chris Paul to Miami (featuring the Boston Celtics) 

Post#42 » by BBallFreak » Wed Oct 9, 2019 10:59 pm

So, if you agree with me, why are you arguing every point I make? I'm telling you, I don't want him in Miami. I hate the idea that we might trade for him, but if we're going to, I'm glad Riley is demanding compensation for taking him. Otherwise, I think OKC can just keep him.

And taking Hayward, in addition, is a terrible idea.

You want to talk about limitations, those two contracts will do it...
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Re: Chris Paul to Miami (featuring the Boston Celtics) 

Post#43 » by gom » Wed Oct 9, 2019 11:47 pm

For the most part, I agree with BBallFreak here, but I do think Hayward adds more than Paul in a potential trade and the risk vs reward is better for Miami. Hayward at least plays positions (2,3, & maybe better now? 4) where we could use reinforcement. Even if Hayward gets injured again and cannot play, only two seasons are affected, and the Heat still might have enough to make the postseason without his contribution. Paul is a season more and about $10m more per season, so about $65m more than Hayward.

One thing, though, BBallFreak used the wrong word: Bullying. It's not bullying, but it is tiresome to read different versions of the same trades three or four times a week. I can relate to the Cavs fans and everyone helping them to trade Kevin Love, who, by the way, says he wants to stay in Cleveland. :nod:

You know a player who could help Miami? Tristan Thompson next season after his contract is over. Good MLE signing maybe?

Also, adding them together is madness. Sorry.
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Re: Chris Paul to Miami (featuring the Boston Celtics) 

Post#44 » by pacers33granger » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:23 am

sonictecture wrote:
pacers33granger wrote:
sonictecture wrote:The Heat are already handicapped. If they have a chance to upgrade the talent they should.


Sounds like the 00s Knicks MO. "We're already in cap hell, so what's another terrible contract to add to the pile." This handicaps Miami more than they are over the next 2 years. It gives them a less tradeable player and causes them to have to fill another roster spot with no real means to do so. Miami isn't the dumping ground for terrible contracts just because their options are limited.

Paul can still play. Or do you disagree?
I never said anything about Paul, just Hayward. And the Heat fans in here have pointed out numerous reasons for having no real interest in him. It seems pretty clear the only potential interest was not just for a talent upgrade but to also recoup some of their picks (which OKC has no reason to do at this point unless Paul becomes an issue).
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Re: Chris Paul to Miami (featuring the Boston Celtics) 

Post#45 » by MoneyTalks41890 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:10 am

I don’t like Hayward for the Heat. I do like CP and Gallo it would be a markedly better team.

Dragic, JJ, Dion, Leonard for CP, Gallo, Nader

That’s a deal Miami should do. But I’ll expect to hear the objections now in order.
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Re: Chris Paul to Miami (featuring the Boston Celtics) 

Post#46 » by Resistance » Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:48 am

..............................2019-20...........2020-21...........2021-22....
Chris Paul................$38,506,482......$41,358,814......$44,211,146
Danilo Gallinari.........$22,615,559..........................................   
Abdel Nader..............$1,618,520........$1,752,950 (Non Guaranteed)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
............................$62,740,561.......$43,111,764.....$44,211,146


..............................2019-20...........2020-21...........2021-22....
Goran Dragic............$19,217,900..........................................
James Johnson..........$15,371,400......$16,069,100 (Player Option)
Dion Waiters.............$12,100,000......$12,650,000.....................
Meyers Leonard.........$11,286,515..........................................
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
............................$57,975,815.......$28,719,100....................


Miami will ask for pick compensation.
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Re: Chris Paul to Miami (featuring the Boston Celtics) 

Post#47 » by pacers33granger » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:00 am

MoneyTalks41890 wrote:I don’t like Hayward for the Heat. I do like CP and Gallo it would be a markedly better team.

Dragic, JJ, Dion, Leonard for CP, Gallo, Nader

That’s a deal Miami should do. But I’ll expect to hear the objections now in order.


I don't mind a version like this, though I do think Miami still holds out for a pick and is comfortable staying pat when OKC declines. Gallo would be a nice fit for them and presumably could be resigned at a cheaper number.
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Re: Chris Paul to Miami (featuring the Boston Celtics) 

Post#48 » by sonictecture » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:14 am

pacers33granger wrote:
MoneyTalks41890 wrote:I don’t like Hayward for the Heat. I do like CP and Gallo it would be a markedly better team.

Dragic, JJ, Dion, Leonard for CP, Gallo, Nader

That’s a deal Miami should do. But I’ll expect to hear the objections now in order.


I don't mind a version like this, though I do think Miami still holds out for a pick and is comfortable staying pat when OKC declines. Gallo would be a nice fit for them and presumably could be resigned at a cheaper number.

OKC adding value by including Gallo seems a reasonable compromise, although I’ve seen Miami reject it in the recent past.
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Re: Chris Paul to Miami (featuring the Boston Celtics) 

Post#49 » by sonictecture » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:15 am

Resistance wrote:..............................2019-20...........2020-21...........2021-22....
Chris Paul................$38,506,482......$41,358,814......$44,211,146
Danilo Gallinari.........$22,615,559..........................................   
Abdel Nader..............$1,618,520........$1,752,950 (Non Guaranteed)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
............................$62,740,561.......$43,111,764.....$44,211,146


..............................2019-20...........2020-21...........2021-22....
Goran Dragic............$19,217,900..........................................
James Johnson..........$15,371,400......$16,069,100 (Player Option)
Dion Waiters.............$12,100,000......$12,650,000.....................
Meyers Leonard.........$11,286,515..........................................
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
............................$57,975,815.......$28,719,100....................


Miami will ask for pick compensation.

Gallo is the pick compensation.
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Re: Chris Paul to Miami (featuring the Boston Celtics) 

Post#50 » by Resistance » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:49 am

sonictecture wrote:
Resistance wrote:..............................2019-20...........2020-21...........2021-22....
Chris Paul................$38,506,482......$41,358,814......$44,211,146
Danilo Gallinari.........$22,615,559..........................................   
Abdel Nader..............$1,618,520........$1,752,950 (Non Guaranteed)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
............................$62,740,561.......$43,111,764.....$44,211,146


..............................2019-20...........2020-21...........2021-22....
Goran Dragic............$19,217,900..........................................
James Johnson..........$15,371,400......$16,069,100 (Player Option)
Dion Waiters.............$12,100,000......$12,650,000.....................
Meyers Leonard.........$11,286,515..........................................
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
............................$57,975,815.......$28,719,100....................


Miami will ask for pick compensation.

Gallo is the pick compensation.



I don't view situations in a vacuum. Based on what I have observed of the Miami FO, they do keep an eye on things such as luxury tax, team salary and related.

Currently, they are slated to pay a few million in luxury tax for this season. Their luxury tax situation will get worse by doing the suggested trade of CP3, Gallinai and Nader for Dragic, Johnson, Waiters and Leonard because their team salary will increase by at least $4,764,746 and perhaps/probably a bit more since they are doing a four out and three in trade.

For the 2020-21 season, the Miami team salary will be at least $12,639,714 higher depending on what they do with the Nader contract. The OKC team salary will be lower and perhaps they will have enough cap space to absorb a bad contract packaged with a first round pick.

For the 2021-22 season, OKC won't have to deal with an older CP3 and his $44.2 million salary.


Does Gallinari have some positive value?
Yes

Does Gallinari have enough enough positive value to offset the negatives that Miami would be taking on?
No

That is why I have Miami expecting pick compensation to be added to the initial trade offer.
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Re: Chris Paul to Miami (featuring the Boston Celtics) 

Post#51 » by sonictecture » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:57 am

Is Paul better than the players Miami trades over this season and the next?

For me the answer is yes.

In addition Gallo is better than the players Miami trades out is worthy of a first round pick in trade by most observers and is expiring. The value seems to be there.
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Re: Chris Paul to Miami (featuring the Boston Celtics) 

Post#52 » by giberish » Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:43 am

sonictecture wrote:
Resistance wrote:..............................2019-20...........2020-21...........2021-22....
Chris Paul................$38,506,482......$41,358,814......$44,211,146
Danilo Gallinari.........$22,615,559..........................................   
Abdel Nader..............$1,618,520........$1,752,950 (Non Guaranteed)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
............................$62,740,561.......$43,111,764.....$44,211,146


..............................2019-20...........2020-21...........2021-22....
Goran Dragic............$19,217,900..........................................
James Johnson..........$15,371,400......$16,069,100 (Player Option)
Dion Waiters.............$12,100,000......$12,650,000.....................
Meyers Leonard.........$11,286,515..........................................
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
............................$57,975,815.......$28,719,100....................


Miami will ask for pick compensation.

Gallo is the pick compensation.


IMO this deal is about fair. Every player Miami is sending out is overpaid, roughly making up for Paul's deal. It's a clear win for Miami for this season, and a clear loss for 2021-22 -> which makes sense for a win-now Miami team dealing with a win-later OKC team.

The problem is that it isn't a legal trade. Miami's close to the hard cap for this year, so they can't take on added salary this season. You'd have to include Olynyk outgoing for Miami as well. And at some point the depth issues become just too much for Miami.

Of course if you start sending extra money back to OKC, that pushes OKC back into the luxury tax, and a small market rebuilding team isn't going to want to pay luxury tax money. It's really very hard to make a Miami-OKC deal that keeps Miami under the hard cap and OKC out of the luxury tax.
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Re: Chris Paul to Miami (featuring the Boston Celtics) 

Post#53 » by Resistance » Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:48 am

I will use parts of an earlier post since the CP3, Gallinari and Nader scenario is much the same as the CP3 and Hayward scenario.

Chris Paul + Jimmy Butler + Danilo Gallinari + Abdel Nader + Waived Salary = $101,147,231

Chris Paul + Jimmy Butler + Danilo Gallinari + Justise Winslow + Kelly Olynyk + Abdel Nader + Waived Salary = $126,815,117

Chris Paul + Jimmy Butler + Danilo Gallinari + Justise Winslow + Kelly Olynyk + Tyler Herro + Bam Adebayo + Abdel Nader + Waived Salary = $133,909,397

Chris Paul + Jimmy Butler + Danilo Gallinari + Justise Winslow + Kelly Olynyk + Tyler Herro + Bam Adebayo + Abdel Nader +
Derrick Jones Jr. + Udonis Haslem + Duncan Robinson + Kendrick Nunn + KZ Okpala + Waived Salary = $140,907,332


79. What roster size limits exist? What is the Inactive List? What is Injured Reserve? Do any other such lists exist?

While individual teams are only required to carry a minimum of 14 players (13 active and one inactive, or 12 active and two inactive), the NBA also guarantees a league-wide average of at least 14.5 players per team (not including Two-Way players), however the average must be under 14.5 in two consecutive seasons for a violation to occur.


Chris Paul + Jimmy Butler + Danilo Gallinari + Justise Winslow + Kelly Olynyk + Tyler Herro + Bam Adebayo + Abdel Nader
Derrick Jones Jr. + Udonis Haslem + Duncan Robinson + Kendrick Nunn + KZ Okpala = 13 players

Since there are only thirteen players, Miami needs to sign another player making the rookie minimum to be CBA compliant.

Chris Paul + Jimmy Butler + Danilo Gallinari + Justise Winslow + Kelly Olynyk + Tyler Herro + Bam Adebayo + Abdel Nader +
Derrick Jones Jr. + Udonis Haslem + Duncan Robinson + Kendrick Nunn + KZ Okpala + minimum salary = 14 players.

So we have reached CBA compliance in regards to roster size.


Chris Paul + Jimmy Butler + Danilo Gallinari + Justise Winslow + Kelly Olynyk + Tyler Herro + Bam Adebayo +
Derrick Jones Jr. + Udonis Haslem + Duncan Robinson + Kendrick Nunn + KZ Okpala + minimum salary + Waived Salary = $141,805,642


20. Other than financial penalties, are there restrictions on taxpaying teams? What is the "Apron?" What is the hard cap?

In other words, when a team is below the Apron and uses its Bi-Annual exception, receives a player who is signed-and-traded, or uses its Mid-Level exception to sign a player to a contract larger than allowed by the Taxpayer Mid-Level exception, the team becomes hard-capped at the Apron for the remainder of that season. This eliminates any potential loophole where a team could first use one of these exceptions and subsequently add salary to go above the Apron, since the reverse -- adding salary first and then using the exception -- would be illegal.


Jimmy Butler moves to Miami and Sixers acquire Josh Richardson in sign-and-trade with Heat

Code: Select all

Season   Tax Level      Apron
2017-18   $119,266,000   $125,266,000
2018-19   $123,733,000   $129,817,000
2019-20   $132,627,000   $138,928,000




With the hard cap at $138,928,000

$138,928,000 - $141,805,642 = $2,877,642


If a team is hard-capped, it cannot exceed the Apron under any circumstance. If the team subsequently needs to sign a player (for example, to replace injured players) it must first create room under the Apron by waiving player(s) with non-guaranteed salary, waiving player(s) with guaranteed salary and utilizing the stretch provision, trading downward in salary, etc. A team that is hard-capped can sign players to non-guaranteed contracts for training camp or the regular season, but must rid themselves of such players before their salary would take the team above the Apron. A team subject to the hard cap can also sign players to Rest-of-Season contracts during the season, as long as the salary pro-ration keeps the team below the Apron.


To get around the hard cap issue, they would need to stretch waive enough salary from the Nader, Jones, Haslem, Robinson and Nunn group to carve out space underneath the hard cap. Once they waive a player to carve out more space under the hard cap, then the roster count falls back to 13 and another rookie making the minimum salary needs to be added to bring it back to 14.

There is a problem with a stretch waive strategy to reduce the team salary during the season.

64. What happens when a player is released? What are waivers? What is the Stretch provision?

Individually negotiated revisions to the payment schedule are not allowed. For contracts for with more than $250,000 of remaining guaranteed salary, the guaranteed salary for the remaining seasons2 is "stretched" and paid in equal amounts over a greater time span, as follows:

* If the player is waived from July 1 to August 31, then his remaining salary is paid over twice the number of years remaining on his contract, plus one. For example, if the player is waived on August 1 with two seasons remaining on his contract at $10.2 million and $10.3 million, respectively, then his remaining salary is paid over five years (two seasons times two, plus one), in even amounts of $4.1 million per year.

* If the player is waived from September 1 to June 30, then the current season is paid per the normal payment schedule, and any remaining years are stretched over twice the number of years remaining plus one as described above. For example, if the player is waived on December 1 with two seasons remaining on his contract at $10.2 million and $10.5 million, respectively, then the current season (at $10.2 million) is paid normally, and the final season (at $10.5 million) is stretched over three years (one season times two, plus one) and paid in even amounts of $3.5 million per year.



Alternatives to reduce the team salary such as trading down in salary and waiving any players with partial guarantees would weaken the roster.

Here is an example of what the roster would look like with trade downs in salary from the Nader, Haslem, Robinson, Nunn and Jones tier of salaries

Chris Paul + Jimmy Butler + Danilo Gallinari + Justise Winslow + Kelly Olynyk + Tyler Herro + Bam Adebayo +
KZ Okpala + rookie minimum salary + rookie minimum salary + rookie minimum salary + rookie minimum salary + rookie minimum salary + rookie minimum salary = 14 players

There is CBA compliance in regards to roster size.


Chris Paul + Jimmy Butler + Danilo Gallinari + Justise Winslow + Kelly Olynyk + Tyler Herro + Bam Adebayo +
KZ Okpala + rookie minimum salary + rookie minimum salary + rookie minimum salary + rookie minimum salary + rookie minimum salary + rookie minimum salary + Waived Salary = $138,579,047


$138,928,000 - $138,579,047 = $348,953

Those moves gets the Miami team salary underneath the hard cap.

Trading Olynyk instead of trading multiple lower salaried players would be another path to getting under the hard cap, but there could be a decent sized chunk of salary coming back unless Miami sent compensation to minimize the incoming salary.
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Re: Chris Paul to Miami (featuring the Boston Celtics) 

Post#54 » by gom » Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:23 am

This is just a terrible plan for the Heat. OKC should just trade Gallo and Chris Paul to another team. We're actually excited about Nunn and the other players you want to trade. This should be an exciting season for Miami.

Nader, Jones, Haslem, Robinson and Nunn group to carve out space underneath the hard cap.


Nader is a Thunder player. We're keeping Jones. Haslem has played his entire career in Miami and will not be traded unless he wants out. He has an important role on the team. Robinson & Nunn are two players we are excited to develop.

Honestly, Resistance, don't you see the insanity you are suggesting? Is it worth breaking the team to add two expensive players who won't move the needle. Gallo & Chris Paul (like Hayward & Chris Paul) are not moving the team. This isn't 2012.

A hard pass. All these calisthenics to try to add two players (now Gallo & Chris Paul) we don't really want, to screw the future of the team, and not return picks. That's one crazy plan... Also, don't know if you've seen the other thread, but having a salary expense of $130m next season might not be a great idea when the cap is about to be lower.

I suspect Chris Paul's contract just got a little harder to move, a gift from Mr. Morey.
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Re: Chris Paul to Miami (featuring the Boston Celtics) 

Post#55 » by puppa bear » Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:30 am

I have to say that I’m a Heat fan who would be open to a CP/Gallo trade. But we do have to make sure we’re not getting our depth too much and it has to work in the CBA.

Unfortunately, I think we’d need to include all of Dragic, KO, JJ, Waiters and Leonard ($70.6m). Which then means that the OKC side has to expand as CP+Gallo is only $61.1m. The easiest way to match salaries and keep depth for Heat is to add in Ferguson, Bazley, Noel and Nader.
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Re: Chris Paul to Miami (featuring the Boston Celtics) 

Post#56 » by Resistance » Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:27 am

gom wrote:This is just a terrible plan for the Heat. OKC should just trade Gallo and Chris Paul to another team. We're actually excited about Nunn and the other players you want to trade. This should be an exciting season for Miami.

Nader, Jones, Haslem, Robinson and Nunn group to carve out space underneath the hard cap.


Nader is a Thunder player. We're keeping Jones. Haslem has played his entire career in Miami and will not be traded unless he wants out. He has an important role on the team. Robinson & Nunn are two players we are excited to develop.

Honestly, Resistance, don't you see the insanity you are suggesting? Is it worth breaking the team to add two expensive players who won't move the needle. Gallo & Chris Paul (like Hayward & Chris Paul) are not moving the team. This isn't 2012.

A hard pass. All these calisthenics to try to add two players (now Gallo & Chris Paul) we don't really want, to screw the future of the team, and not return picks. That's one crazy plan... Also, don't know if you've seen the other thread, but having a salary expense of $130m next season might not be a great idea when the cap is about to be lower.

I suspect Chris Paul's contract just got a little harder to move, a gift from Mr. Morey.



Honestly, Resistance, don't you see the insanity you are suggesting? Is it worth breaking the team to add two expensive players who won't move the needle. Gallo & Chris Paul (like Hayward & Chris Paul) are not moving the team. This isn't 2012.



My post wasn't to suggest that this is something Miami should do. I walked through what is involved per the CBA to show what has to happen since those who are promoting/pushing this trade idea have shown no interest in providing the details. Earlier in this same thread, I had a very similar post about the CP3 and Hayward to Miami idea and used it as the basis for my long post about CP3, Gallinari and Nader to Miami. Go back and read the responses to my detailed post about the CP3 and Hayward trade idea.
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Re: Chris Paul to Miami (featuring the Boston Celtics) 

Post#57 » by BBallFreak » Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:14 am

Completely illegal trade as Resistance aptly pointed out. Miami is hard capped. This sees them exceeding that, which they cannot do.

Pass. BTW, I'm happy to tell you how much I dislike just about every CP3 to Miami trade until you actually give us what we want to make it happen (and even then, I personally would still prefer we pass)...
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Re: Chris Paul to Miami (featuring the Boston Celtics) 

Post#58 » by gom » Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:46 pm

Sorry, Resistance... "suggesting" is the wrong word. "presenting" is better. What I was trying to say is that Miami would have to jump through rings of fire and other calisthenics to end up with stretching useful players, dumping prospects in whom we've invested, and trading other players to end up with a team that is without a bench and not a contender.

I am familiar with the CBA rules. Reading your post, my horror grew as you made it more concrete, so thanks for that. ;-)
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Re: Chris Paul to Miami (featuring the Boston Celtics) 

Post#59 » by MoneyTalks41890 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:58 pm

For the record, Gallo would be far and away the best player on the Heat not named Butler.
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Re: Chris Paul to Miami (featuring the Boston Celtics) 

Post#60 » by sonictecture » Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:59 pm

BBallFreak wrote:So, if you agree with me, why are you arguing every point I make? I'm telling you, I don't want him in Miami. I hate the idea that we might trade for him, but if we're going to, I'm glad Riley is demanding compensation for taking him. Otherwise, I think OKC can just keep him.

And taking Hayward, in addition, is a terrible idea.

You want to talk about limitations, those two contracts will do it...

We don’t agree on everything.

I can see that your position is intractable, but that doesn’t mean you are correct or that there aren’t subjects to discuss.

I don’t think trading Paul to Miami is good for OKC, but that doesn’t mean it won’t happen or that there aren’t interesting nuances.

You could ignore future Paul to Miami threads. Everyone knows where you stand at this point.

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