Vucevic to...

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Re: Vucevic to... 

Post#61 » by Buzzard » Sun Jul 12, 2020 3:38 pm

NotACat wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:I do think that Bamba has shown enough promise in year 2 that it makes sense to see what you’ve got in him. I also think that the theory of an Isaac/Bamba front court makes a ton of sense and that Orlando would be best suited in trading AG/Vuc to see what they’ve got.

Would Vuc to Chicago for OPJ make any sense?

OPJ makes a ton of sense of Orlando if they're also sending out Aaron Gordon. OPJ is ideal fit next to JI.

nevetsov wrote:TOR in: Vucevic
TOR out: Lowry, #28

MIA in: Lowry
MIA out: #23, Iggy (exp), Olynyk (exp)

ORL in: #23 (MIA), #28 (TOR), Iggy* & Olynyk (both expiring)
ORL out: Vucevic

* maybe GSW takes Iggy with their TPE?

I think Vuc would fill a big hole in Toronto, they have been filling the C spot with stopgap vets like Gasol and Ibaka for years. He'd immediately be the best C since... ? I can't even recall.

He's not too old to get some mileage with their young core of Siakam, Anouby and FVV. That's a bit of defensive bulldoggery around him too.

Trading Lowry would only happen if they are willing to fully hand the reigns over to FVV (which I think they will). It would be a tough pill for the fans to swallow trading someone so beloved who has been a franchise fixture for so long. But it does happen to vets entering the twilight of their careers. He's still good enough to contribute and TOR gets some return on his expiring deal.

Van Vleet
Powell
Anouby
Siakam
Vucevic

Is a sturdy young lineup.

Lowry is ontraded to MIA to be a third banana with Jimmy and Bam. MIA gets to kick the tyres for next to nothing.

ORL gets a bit of cap relief and a couple of late 1sts.


Can't see Toronto touching this, Lowry is a stud and they don't need Vuc.

Buzzard wrote:
Skybox wrote:
We don’t need a defensive rim-runner like Capela. Vuc is a superior Player, with a much more complete game. Granted, Capela is a far superior rim protector and a comparable rebounder but Bamba projects to surpass Capela when given the minutes. Only way I’d want a center back would be a solid backup vet (like a Robin Lopez) along with a primary asset in a package...or a floor stretching Big like Lauri to give Orl different looks at the PF/C spots. Generally, I’m looking for a wing offensive creator with D a secondary concern. Maybe a guy who scores like a All-StAr but catches flack for his defensive contribution Or efficiency like Lavine, Derozan, or Wiggins. Put Isaac, Bamba, Gordon(?) behind them and maybe they look better or even buy in to team D.

If you need to retool your team, its the best pieces you have to use. Vucevic and Gordon are about it. So yes if we are talking checkers, you need more than a rim runner to fix your team. But if we are talking chess, who is to say Gordon does not get you a decent shooter and you do some good with your pick as well.

I get Vuc is your best offensive player; but I don't get what you think needs to be done to build around him. Or what you need to build around Gordon. Its like all I see is people throwing darts with no clear end game.

Why not flip the script. If they are so valuable, trade everyone but Vucevic and Gordon?

Because its an incredibly short-sighted idea with a terribly low ceiling. Fultz, Okeke, JI, and Bamba are the future for Orlando. Everyone else is a reserve or a placeholder until the young core develops.

Orlando has also been really smart about the contracts they've been handing out. Both AG and Vuc have declining contracts so they shouldn't be too worried about hit the cap even with Okeke coming in next year.

So the plan is to stay near a 6th - 8th seed while you wait on the future to develop. I feel your pain and have been a part of a treadmill effort as recently as the Joe Johnson years.

Declining or not though, 26 Million for Vucevic and 18.1 for Gordon is not easy to move. If you lose Fournier, things may get back to where you are at least getting your own lottery pick.
"Offense sells tickets, defense wins games, rebounding wins championships." Pat Summitt

"Offense sells tickets, defense wins championships." Paul Bear Bryant
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Re: Vucevic to... 

Post#62 » by NotACat » Sun Jul 12, 2020 3:45 pm

Buzzard wrote:
NotACat wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:I do think that Bamba has shown enough promise in year 2 that it makes sense to see what you’ve got in him. I also think that the theory of an Isaac/Bamba front court makes a ton of sense and that Orlando would be best suited in trading AG/Vuc to see what they’ve got.

Would Vuc to Chicago for OPJ make any sense?

OPJ makes a ton of sense of Orlando if they're also sending out Aaron Gordon. OPJ is ideal fit next to JI.

nevetsov wrote:TOR in: Vucevic
TOR out: Lowry, #28

MIA in: Lowry
MIA out: #23, Iggy (exp), Olynyk (exp)

ORL in: #23 (MIA), #28 (TOR), Iggy* & Olynyk (both expiring)
ORL out: Vucevic

* maybe GSW takes Iggy with their TPE?

I think Vuc would fill a big hole in Toronto, they have been filling the C spot with stopgap vets like Gasol and Ibaka for years. He'd immediately be the best C since... ? I can't even recall.

He's not too old to get some mileage with their young core of Siakam, Anouby and FVV. That's a bit of defensive bulldoggery around him too.

Trading Lowry would only happen if they are willing to fully hand the reigns over to FVV (which I think they will). It would be a tough pill for the fans to swallow trading someone so beloved who has been a franchise fixture for so long. But it does happen to vets entering the twilight of their careers. He's still good enough to contribute and TOR gets some return on his expiring deal.

Van Vleet
Powell
Anouby
Siakam
Vucevic

Is a sturdy young lineup.

Lowry is ontraded to MIA to be a third banana with Jimmy and Bam. MIA gets to kick the tyres for next to nothing.

ORL gets a bit of cap relief and a couple of late 1sts.


Can't see Toronto touching this, Lowry is a stud and they don't need Vuc.

Buzzard wrote:If you need to retool your team, its the best pieces you have to use. Vucevic and Gordon are about it. So yes if we are talking checkers, you need more than a rim runner to fix your team. But if we are talking chess, who is to say Gordon does not get you a decent shooter and you do some good with your pick as well.

I get Vuc is your best offensive player; but I don't get what you think needs to be done to build around him. Or what you need to build around Gordon. Its like all I see is people throwing darts with no clear end game.

Why not flip the script. If they are so valuable, trade everyone but Vucevic and Gordon?

Because its an incredibly short-sighted idea with a terribly low ceiling. Fultz, Okeke, JI, and Bamba are the future for Orlando. Everyone else is a reserve or a placeholder until the young core develops.

Orlando has also been really smart about the contracts they've been handing out. Both AG and Vuc have declining contracts so they shouldn't be too worried about hit the cap even with Okeke coming in next year.

So the plan is to stay near a 6th - 8th seed while you wait on the future to develop. I feel your pain and have been a part of a treadmill effort as recently as the Joe Johnson years.

Declining or not though, 26 Million for Vucevik and 18.1 for Gordon is not easy to move. If you lose Fournier, things may get back to where you are at least getting your own lottery pick.

Funnily enough, Orlando hasn't been a treadmill team. They made strides last year to reach the 8 seed. Their young talent made massive strides this year too, but it doesn't show up in the win column due injuries - Orlando has used nearly 80 more lineups this year than last year due to injuries.

I don't think Orlando will look to move Vuc until next deadline at the earliest, and I agree it won't be easy. I think Gordon could be easily moved because of his position and versatility on defense. He's one of the only wing defenders on the market that you can put in to defend Luka, PG, Kawhi, LeBron, Giannis, Ben Simmons, Tatum, etc. and feel good-okay about. Plus the fact that he's in a less than optimal role in Orlando means he'll likely be a lot better on his next team since he'll likely have a simplified role.
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Re: Vucevic to... 

Post#63 » by Buzzard » Sun Jul 12, 2020 3:53 pm

NotACat wrote:
Buzzard wrote:
NotACat wrote:OPJ makes a ton of sense of Orlando if they're also sending out Aaron Gordon. OPJ is ideal fit next to JI.



Can't see Toronto touching this, Lowry is a stud and they don't need Vuc.


Because its an incredibly short-sighted idea with a terribly low ceiling. Fultz, Okeke, JI, and Bamba are the future for Orlando. Everyone else is a reserve or a placeholder until the young core develops.

Orlando has also been really smart about the contracts they've been handing out. Both AG and Vuc have declining contracts so they shouldn't be too worried about hit the cap even with Okeke coming in next year.

So the plan is to stay near a 6th - 8th seed while you wait on the future to develop. I feel your pain and have been a part of a treadmill effort as recently as the Joe Johnson years.

Declining or not though, 26 Million for Vucevik and 18.1 for Gordon is not easy to move. If you lose Fournier, things may get back to where you are at least getting your own lottery pick.

Funnily enough, Orlando hasn't been a treadmill team. They made strides last year to reach the 8 seed. Their young talent made massive strides this year too, but it doesn't show up in the win column due injuries - Orlando has used nearly 80 more lineups this year than last year due to injuries.

I don't think Orlando will look to move Vuc until next deadline at the earliest, and I agree it won't be easy. I think Gordon could be easily moved because of his position and versatility on defense. He's one of the only wing defenders on the market that you can put in to defend Luka, PG, Kawhi, LeBron, Giannis, Ben Simmons, Tatum, etc. and feel good-okay about. Plus the fact that he's in a less than optimal role in Orlando means he'll likely be a lot better on his next team since he'll likely have a simplified role.

My bad and you are right. Orlando had been rebuilding for six straight seasons ( lottery appearances ), before making the playoffs in 2018/19.

I guess its a question of perspective. Why trade their two best players when they only recently made the playoffs? That is backwards of what most teams do. But maybe it will workout.
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Re: Vucevic to... 

Post#64 » by Skybox » Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:16 pm

nevetsov wrote:TOR in: Vucevic
TOR out: Lowry, #28

MIA in: Lowry
MIA out: #23, Iggy (exp), Olynyk (exp)

ORL in: #23 (MIA), #28 (TOR), Iggy* & Olynyk (both expiring)
ORL out: Vucevic

* maybe GSW takes Iggy with their TPE?

I think Vuc would fill a big hole in Toronto, they have been filling the C spot with stopgap vets like Gasol and Ibaka for years. He'd immediately be the best C since... ? I can't even recall.

He's not too old to get some mileage with their young core of Siakam, Anouby and FVV. That's a bit of defensive bulldoggery around him too.

Trading Lowry would only happen if they are willing to fully hand the reigns over to FVV (which I think they will). It would be a tough pill for the fans to swallow trading someone so beloved who has been a franchise fixture for so long. But it does happen to vets entering the twilight of their careers. He's still good enough to contribute and TOR gets some return on his expiring deal.

Van Vleet
Powell
Anouby
Siakam
Vucevic

Is a sturdy young lineup.

Lowry is ontraded to MIA to be a third banana with Jimmy and Bam. MIA gets to kick the tyres for next to nothing.

ORL gets a bit of cap relief and a couple of late 1sts.


This does NOTHING for ORL. Late firsts are a financial burden and expirings don’t make us better- especially if cap contracts. Our young core of Fultz and Isaac will be up for extensions when cap room presents and, at this stage, ORL isn’t a FA puller anyway.
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Re: Vucevic to... 

Post#65 » by Buzzard » Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:39 pm

Skybox wrote:
nevetsov wrote:TOR in: Vucevic
TOR out: Lowry, #28

MIA in: Lowry
MIA out: #23, Iggy (exp), Olynyk (exp)

ORL in: #23 (MIA), #28 (TOR), Iggy* & Olynyk (both expiring)
ORL out: Vucevic

* maybe GSW takes Iggy with their TPE?

I think Vuc would fill a big hole in Toronto, they have been filling the C spot with stopgap vets like Gasol and Ibaka for years. He'd immediately be the best C since... ? I can't even recall.

He's not too old to get some mileage with their young core of Siakam, Anouby and FVV. That's a bit of defensive bulldoggery around him too.

Trading Lowry would only happen if they are willing to fully hand the reigns over to FVV (which I think they will). It would be a tough pill for the fans to swallow trading someone so beloved who has been a franchise fixture for so long. But it does happen to vets entering the twilight of their careers. He's still good enough to contribute and TOR gets some return on his expiring deal.

Van Vleet
Powell
Anouby
Siakam
Vucevic

Is a sturdy young lineup.

Lowry is ontraded to MIA to be a third banana with Jimmy and Bam. MIA gets to kick the tyres for next to nothing.

ORL gets a bit of cap relief and a couple of late 1sts.


This does NOTHING for ORL. Late firsts are a financial burden and expirings don’t make us better- especially if cap contracts. Our young core of Fultz and Isaac will be up for extensions when cap room presents and, at this stage, ORL isn’t a FA puller anyway.

I just went over the TS% for Orlando and was shocked at what I found. Only Fournier ( .599 TS% ) is above the league average out of their major minute players. Orlando is in the bottom five for Team TS%. Here is most of the reasons why.

Ross ( .548 TS% ), Augustin ( .548 TS% ) Isaac ( .542 TS% ) Vucevic ( .540 TS% ), MCW ( .539 TS% ) Fultz ( .523 TS% ), Gordon ( .511 TS% ).

Either your starting center or power forward needs to be somewhere near that .600 TS% and most teams want both of them to be above the league average of around .560. There is no way Orlando can compete at the highest levels with this type of efficiency. I understand why a lot of Magic fans want to move Gordon or Vucevic for as much return as possible.

I did not at first because most rebuilds start reaching a conclusion by making the playoffs, then continuing to improve. I did not think Gordon or Vucecik were that bad to be honest.
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Re: Vucevic to... 

Post#66 » by j-ragg » Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:56 pm

Buzzard wrote:I just went over the TS% for Orlando and was shocked at what I found. Only Fournier ( .599 TS% ) is above the league average out of their major minute players. Orlando is in the bottom five for Team TS%. Here is most of the reasons why.

Ross ( .548 TS% ), Augustin ( .548 TS% ) Isaac ( .542 TS% ) Vucevic ( .540 TS% ), MCW ( .539 TS% ) Fultz ( .523 TS% ), Gordon ( .511 TS% ).

Either your starting center or power forward needs to be somewhere near that .600 TS% and most teams want both of them to be above the league average of around .560. There is no way Orlando can compete at the highest levels with this type of efficiency. I understand why a lot of Magic fans want to move Gordon or Vucevic for as much return as possible.

I did not at first because most rebuilds start reaching a conclusion by making the playoffs, then continuing to improve. I did not think Gordon or Vucecik were that bad to be honest.

Our offense has been in the bottom third for almost ten years now. Why start making a change? It's juuuust about to click I feel it.

But really, we have no go-to guy. And the guys we've tried to make go-to guys have a glaring deficiency like the rest of the roster, they're soft and can't get to the line.

It's the epitome of a treadmill team to me unfortunately. I hope Fultz or Jon Isaac prove me wrong.
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Re: Vucevic to... 

Post#67 » by Buzzard » Sun Jul 12, 2020 5:00 pm

j-ragg wrote:
Buzzard wrote:I just went over the TS% for Orlando and was shocked at what I found. Only Fournier ( .599 TS% ) is above the league average out of their major minute players. Orlando is in the bottom five for Team TS%. Here is most of the reasons why.

Ross ( .548 TS% ), Augustin ( .548 TS% ) Isaac ( .542 TS% ) Vucevic ( .540 TS% ), MCW ( .539 TS% ) Fultz ( .523 TS% ), Gordon ( .511 TS% ).

Either your starting center or power forward needs to be somewhere near that .600 TS% and most teams want both of them to be above the league average of around .560. There is no way Orlando can compete at the highest levels with this type of efficiency. I understand why a lot of Magic fans want to move Gordon or Vucevic for as much return as possible.

I did not at first because most rebuilds start reaching a conclusion by making the playoffs, then continuing to improve. I did not think Gordon or Vucecik were that bad to be honest.

Our offense has been in the bottom third for almost ten years now. Why start making a change? It's juuuust about to click I feel it.

But really, we have no go-to guy. And the guys we've tried to make go-to guys have a glaring deficiency like the rest of the roster, they're soft and can't get to the line.

It's the epitome of a treadmill team to me unfortunately. I hope Fultz or Jon Isaac prove me wrong.

Its fine to run a slower old school offense and be a defensive gem; but you still need those points per possession. After seeing the numbers, it makes me rethink Capela for Vucevic. But I think Trae can help any big become more efficient.
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