Hayward to Warriors: with Grizzlies

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Re: Hayward to Warriors: with Grizzlies 

Post#21 » by patman66 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:56 am

Resistance wrote:
patman66 wrote:
Resistance wrote:

What does that mean?


That while Ainge could deal hayward after the draft, it would not be for Horford as the main piece coming back.



Okay, but that really doesn't elaborate on what if the draft breaks his way. means.


Say he gets Patrick Williams at 17 and another Wing later in first. If the draft breaks the other way and that he goes Big or PG with the picks, He will be less likely to let Hayward go.
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Re: Hayward to Warriors: with Grizzlies 

Post#22 » by Resistance » Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:20 am

patman66 wrote:
Resistance wrote:
patman66 wrote:
That while Ainge could deal hayward after the draft, it would not be for Horford as the main piece coming back.



Okay, but that really doesn't elaborate on what if the draft breaks his way. means.


Say he gets Patrick Williams at 17 and another Wing later in first. If the draft breaks the other way and that he goes Big or PG with the picks, He will be less likely to let Hayward go.



Would Ainge really have that much faith in youth + Kemba Walker to get the job done?
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Re: Hayward to Warriors: with Grizzlies 

Post#23 » by Commodor » Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:09 am

patman66 wrote:
Commodor wrote:
patman66 wrote:No way from Boston, Dieng is not worth his salary, I like him as a player, but his value is 1/2 of what he is getting paid.

I got a Wiggins trade value as something like GS 1st and Wiggins for expiring's Say Dieng and Kyle Anderson


Wiggins + a high 1st known value is a young fringe all star. How’d that drop to mediocre players on expirings?


Heh, it is just my opinion. To me Wiggins takes at least two mid 1st to dump. Dieng and Anderson to me is something that the Griz would give up to get him and the pick. Maybe I could see another Mid 1st maybe on top to the warriors. I think the warriors would be a better team With Dieng and Anderson and the TPE rather than Wiggins and the TPE. I just think that that contract is a yoke on the team.


I mean again, the deal was made. The market has been set. Your opinion is yours, but Wiggins played better since the trade. There’s no reason to think he’s lost value. Why would the warriors go out and make a move for less value now? Of course Memphis would take on Wiggins for a likely top 3 pick in exchange for worthless scraps. Who wouldn’t??
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Re: Hayward to Warriors: with Grizzlies 

Post#24 » by Prospect Dong » Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:22 am

Commodor wrote:
patman66 wrote:
Commodor wrote:
Wiggins + a high 1st known value is a young fringe all star. How’d that drop to mediocre players on expirings?


Heh, it is just my opinion. To me Wiggins takes at least two mid 1st to dump. Dieng and Anderson to me is something that the Griz would give up to get him and the pick. Maybe I could see another Mid 1st maybe on top to the warriors. I think the warriors would be a better team With Dieng and Anderson and the TPE rather than Wiggins and the TPE. I just think that that contract is a yoke on the team.


I mean again, the deal was made. The market has been set. Your opinion is yours, but Wiggins played better since the trade. There’s no reason to think he’s lost value. Why would the warriors go out and make a move for less value now? Of course Memphis would take on Wiggins for a likely top 3 pick in exchange for worthless scraps. Who wouldn’t??


That's fair, but it does ignore the fact that we don't have an external means of valuing Russel. He's on a max deal, and didn't set the world on fire with GS, to the point where "borderline all star" is true, but also kinda misleading. There were a lot of people who thought that Russell was neutralish value from the day he signed that deal (not me, though) and he didn't really do much to prove them wrong, before being traded for the consensus worst contract in the league.

So I think the revealed market value argument for Wiggins is maybe a little more complicated, depending on what you think of Russell, and that depends at least in part on what we all thought of Wiggins before the trade.

FWIW, I don't think GS would or should give up its pick just to switch Wiggins for net negative contracts.
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Re: Hayward to Warriors: with Grizzlies 

Post#25 » by E S V L » Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:39 pm

psman2 wrote:Zero interest here. None. Nope.


Nothing to add from the Memphis fan perspective.
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Re: Hayward to Warriors: with Grizzlies 

Post#26 » by enzino » Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:46 pm

to Celtics: GSW '20 f.r.p. (currently #1), Otto Porter Jr. ($27.2M, 2yrs), Kris Dunn ($5.3M, 1yr)
to Warriors: CHI '20 f.r.p. (currently #7), Gordon Hayward ($32.7M, 2yrs), Denzel Valentine (TPE $3.3M, 1yr), Thaddeus Young (TPE $12.9M, 3yrs)
to Bulls: MEM' 20 f.r.p. (currently #17), BOS' 20 f.r.p. (currently #25), Kemba Walker ($32.7M, 5yrs), Andrew Wiggins ($27.5M, 4yrs)
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Re: Hayward to Warriors: with Grizzlies 

Post#27 » by patman66 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:19 pm

Commodor wrote:
patman66 wrote:
Commodor wrote:
Wiggins + a high 1st known value is a young fringe all star. How’d that drop to mediocre players on expirings?


Heh, it is just my opinion. To me Wiggins takes at least two mid 1st to dump. Dieng and Anderson to me is something that the Griz would give up to get him and the pick. Maybe I could see another Mid 1st maybe on top to the warriors. I think the warriors would be a better team With Dieng and Anderson and the TPE rather than Wiggins and the TPE. I just think that that contract is a yoke on the team.


I mean again, the deal was made. The market has been set. Your opinion is yours, but Wiggins played better since the trade. There’s no reason to think he’s lost value. Why would the warriors go out and make a move for less value now? Of course Memphis would take on Wiggins for a likely top 3 pick in exchange for worthless scraps. Who wouldn’t??


Wiggins was traded for Russel who was set to be overpaid at 30 mill a year as he was coming of one year where he played at that level. The wolves also had to give what is likely a top 5 pick in a what appears to be a loaded draft to dump Wiggins.
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Re: Hayward to Warriors: with Grizzlies 

Post#28 » by Commodor » Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:09 pm

patman66 wrote:
Commodor wrote:
patman66 wrote:
Heh, it is just my opinion. To me Wiggins takes at least two mid 1st to dump. Dieng and Anderson to me is something that the Griz would give up to get him and the pick. Maybe I could see another Mid 1st maybe on top to the warriors. I think the warriors would be a better team With Dieng and Anderson and the TPE rather than Wiggins and the TPE. I just think that that contract is a yoke on the team.


I mean again, the deal was made. The market has been set. Your opinion is yours, but Wiggins played better since the trade. There’s no reason to think he’s lost value. Why would the warriors go out and make a move for less value now? Of course Memphis would take on Wiggins for a likely top 3 pick in exchange for worthless scraps. Who wouldn’t??


Wiggins was traded for Russel who was set to be overpaid at 30 mill a year as he was coming of one year where he played at that level. The wolves also had to give what is likely a top 5 pick in a what appears to be a loaded draft to dump Wiggins.


How is it a "dump" for a player they wanted? You act like the trade was for a TPE or Minnesota is going to cut Russell now. Minnesota got their starting PG and it cost them Wiggins + a high pick. That is not a dump, that's a trade.
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Re: Hayward to Warriors: with Grizzlies 

Post#29 » by rugbyrugger23 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:24 pm

patman66 wrote:
Commodor wrote:
patman66 wrote:
Heh, it is just my opinion. To me Wiggins takes at least two mid 1st to dump. Dieng and Anderson to me is something that the Griz would give up to get him and the pick. Maybe I could see another Mid 1st maybe on top to the warriors. I think the warriors would be a better team With Dieng and Anderson and the TPE rather than Wiggins and the TPE. I just think that that contract is a yoke on the team.


I mean again, the deal was made. The market has been set. Your opinion is yours, but Wiggins played better since the trade. There’s no reason to think he’s lost value. Why would the warriors go out and make a move for less value now? Of course Memphis would take on Wiggins for a likely top 3 pick in exchange for worthless scraps. Who wouldn’t??


Wiggins was traded for Russel who was set to be overpaid at 30 mill a year as he was coming of one year where he played at that level. The wolves also had to give what is likely a top 5 pick in a what appears to be a loaded draft to dump Wiggins.

The pick is protected top 3. So in 2021 best it can be is 4.

I lean towards pick being 6-12. Wolves are going to make a strong win-now move in offseason.

Pistons and Knicks will be G league teams — with Cavs probably looking to join them. Hornets, Bulls, Magic and Wizards will be in same category as Wolves — but are franchises more likely to trade away their win-now talent for lotto luck.

Spurs and Thunder could go tank/rebuild too.

Lot of the Wolves’ story to be told, but Wolves’ brass bet they would not be bottom feeder when they traded their protected 2021 FRP.
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Re: Hayward to Warriors: with Grizzlies 

Post#30 » by hugepatsfan » Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:41 pm

Ultimately I'm hoping Celtics work out a new 3 year deal with Hayward this offseason.

Year 1: $26M
Year 2: $28.08M
Year 3: $30.16M

That adds 2 years, $50,052,915 to his current deal. In an uncertain financial environment I think that's a fair amount to tack on for him and protect against injury or a down year heading into free agency.

If he wants a little bit more I would be willing to add a partially guaranteed 4th year. A 4th year with those raises would be $32.24M. I would partially guarantee like $9M of it that way Boston could waive and stretch him so it's only $3M counting on the cap that year.

My goal here is twofold:

1) lowering Hayward salary for '20-21 to this would allow us to get under the luxury tax if it stays flat to '19-20 so long as we use some combination of #26/#30 to move on from Kanter (1 year, $5M) and Poirier ($1.4M buyout). You'd be using those picks to move down in the second round for dumping those salaries while also lowering the salary of the drafted rookie.

2) line Hayward up to expire in 3 years along with Kemba that way Boston can pursue a young max FA that year to go with Tatum/Brown and rookie contract guys. Maybe Smart can be part of that but depends on the exact cap numbers.
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Re: Hayward to Warriors: with Grizzlies 

Post#31 » by patman66 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:36 pm

Commodor wrote:
patman66 wrote:
Commodor wrote:
I mean again, the deal was made. The market has been set. Your opinion is yours, but Wiggins played better since the trade. There’s no reason to think he’s lost value. Why would the warriors go out and make a move for less value now? Of course Memphis would take on Wiggins for a likely top 3 pick in exchange for worthless scraps. Who wouldn’t??


Wiggins was traded for Russel who was set to be overpaid at 30 mill a year as he was coming of one year where he played at that level. The wolves also had to give what is likely a top 5 pick in a what appears to be a loaded draft to dump Wiggins.


How is it a "dump" for a player they wanted? You act like the trade was for a TPE or Minnesota is going to cut Russell now. Minnesota got their starting PG and it cost them Wiggins + a high pick. That is not a dump, that's a trade.


Because according to everything fans heard from what are good sources they have been trying to dump him. Are you saying that Russels value was greater than the value of the 2021 pick and Wiggins had positive value to the trade?
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Re: Hayward to Warriors: with Grizzlies 

Post#32 » by patman66 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:43 pm

rugbyrugger23 wrote:
patman66 wrote:
Commodor wrote:
I mean again, the deal was made. The market has been set. Your opinion is yours, but Wiggins played better since the trade. There’s no reason to think he’s lost value. Why would the warriors go out and make a move for less value now? Of course Memphis would take on Wiggins for a likely top 3 pick in exchange for worthless scraps. Who wouldn’t??


Wiggins was traded for Russel who was set to be overpaid at 30 mill a year as he was coming of one year where he played at that level. The wolves also had to give what is likely a top 5 pick in a what appears to be a loaded draft to dump Wiggins.

The pick is protected top 3. So in 2021 best it can be is 4.

I lean towards pick being 6-12. Wolves are going to make a strong win-now move in offseason.

Pistons and Knicks will be G league teams — with Cavs probably looking to join them. Hornets, Bulls, Magic and Wizards will be in same category as Wolves — but are franchises more likely to trade away their win-now talent for lotto luck.

Spurs and Thunder could go tank/rebuild too.

Lot of the Wolves’ story to be told, but Wolves’ brass bet they would not be bottom feeder when they traded their protected 2021 FRP.


I don't see the wolves being a 35 win team. 4-9, The wolves FO does not inspire confidence.
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Re: Hayward to Warriors: with Grizzlies 

Post#33 » by rugbyrugger23 » Wed Jul 1, 2020 12:26 am

patman66 wrote:
rugbyrugger23 wrote:
patman66 wrote:
Wiggins was traded for Russel who was set to be overpaid at 30 mill a year as he was coming of one year where he played at that level. The wolves also had to give what is likely a top 5 pick in a what appears to be a loaded draft to dump Wiggins.

The pick is protected top 3. So in 2021 best it can be is 4.

I lean towards pick being 6-12. Wolves are going to make a strong win-now move in offseason.

Pistons and Knicks will be G league teams — with Cavs probably looking to join them. Hornets, Bulls, Magic and Wizards will be in same category as Wolves — but are franchises more likely to trade away their win-now talent for lotto luck.

Spurs and Thunder could go tank/rebuild too.

Lot of the Wolves’ story to be told, but Wolves’ brass bet they would not be bottom feeder when they traded their protected 2021 FRP.


I don't see the wolves being a 35 win team. 4-9, The wolves FO does not inspire confidence.

Predicting now is premature. Kind of the point of my post. Let’s see what a) Wolves front office does and b) other teams as mentioned (ones in their stratosphere).
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Re: Hayward to Warriors: with Grizzlies 

Post#34 » by Commodor » Wed Jul 1, 2020 6:30 pm

patman66 wrote:
Commodor wrote:
patman66 wrote:
Wiggins was traded for Russel who was set to be overpaid at 30 mill a year as he was coming of one year where he played at that level. The wolves also had to give what is likely a top 5 pick in a what appears to be a loaded draft to dump Wiggins.


How is it a "dump" for a player they wanted? You act like the trade was for a TPE or Minnesota is going to cut Russell now. Minnesota got their starting PG and it cost them Wiggins + a high pick. That is not a dump, that's a trade.


Because according to everything fans heard from what are good sources they have been trying to dump him. Are you saying that Russels value was greater than the value of the 2021 pick and Wiggins had positive value to the trade?



According to fans who heard unspecified rumors? Who cares? It's all speculation until a transaction is made. Minnesota got the player that they blatantly pursued prior to GSW trading for Russell and then clearly pursued hard again at the deadline. GSW was in the driver's seat for the deal, and if they had wanted Dieng then they could have asked for him.

It is painfully clear you do not understand the Warriors right now. Wiggins value is not based on his on-court production alone. His contract is a huge trade asset for them as they are already well over the cap and limited in their options to make a move. His age and position fill a huge hole that was left when KD departed. They need to win in their new stadium.

Money is not an issue for the GSW FO, the ownership group was already considered one of the wealthiest in the league, and the team is now valued at $4.3b... up from $450m when they bought! They do not mind spending a little extra on Wiggins to keep roster flexibility and have no urgency to move him for cost savings.

The idea that they would trade a valuable pick for Memphis' trash because "fans said so" is lazy and illogical. Reality is, MIN moved him for a piece they wanted. They gave up a pick in the process, but no one is arguing he is equal value to Russell. GSW would expect something of value in return if you are going to ask for the 2020 FRP. Wiggins would only be included for salary matching, not a salary dump.

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