Walker for Mitchell

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Walker for Mitchell 

Post#1 » by rugbyrugger23 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:38 pm

I am sure this has been discussed before, but who adds value and why or why not???

Celtics Trade:
Walker
Langford
#17 (2020 Memphis FRP)

FOR

Mitchell
Conley
Jazz Trade:

**As an alternative, if you think Jazz need more value, adding Smart to Jazz could be discussed. It would be a nice backcourt in Utah starting Walker and Smart. Is that too much value for Celtics?

--

Celtics Why: Walker is one of their better players, but the chance to get a young Mitchell who is same core fitting age as Tatum and Brown is just too Sweet for Ainge.
C: Theis
F: Tatum
F: Hayward
G: Brown | Mitchell
G: Mitchell | Conley
Could Ainge also trade Hayward + Assets for a core fitting bigman?

Jazz Why: little easier scenario to believe if one thinks some Gobert vs. Mitchell hatchet isn't truly buried. But even without that, a win-now core of Walker and re-signed Gobert and Bogs is exciting in Utah.
C: Gobert
F: O'Neale
F: Bogs
G: Ingles | Langford (Clarkson or Mudiay back?)
G: Walker
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Re: Walker for Mitchell 

Post#2 » by hugepatsfan » Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:45 pm

Not going to lie, I think Mitchell is overrated. However, moving him for a 30 year old PG in Kemba would be one of the dumbest moves in a while. No way Utah should even consider that.
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Re: Walker for Mitchell 

Post#3 » by rugbyrugger23 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:53 pm

hugepatsfan wrote:Not going to lie, I think Mitchell is overrated. However, moving him for a 30 year old PG in Kemba would be one of the dumbest moves in a while. No way Utah should even consider that.

Wow how quickly NBA players become over the hill when they hit 30. :lol: We would should let Walker know 1 month into his 30yo year that fact.

Now, if your argument is Jazz should build around Mitchell and not get older -- sure. I can see that. I just don't see a 38yo past his prime player aging out of the league being traded here. Walker would have easily 5+ years.
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Re: Walker for Mitchell 

Post#4 » by KEMBAtheMETEOR » Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:58 pm

Utah improves short term, but if I'm Utah, I'm looking long term, maybe trying to cash out on Gobert this summer, and trying to retool with younger players right now.
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Re: Walker for Mitchell 

Post#5 » by rugbyrugger23 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:02 pm

KEMBAtheMETEOR wrote:Utah improves short term, but if I'm Utah, I'm looking long term, maybe trying to cash out on Gobert this summer, and trying to retool with younger players right now.

I would agree. Jazz are in a unique spot. Mitchell MAYbe a franchise guy. Thread in itself there.

Gobert is 28yo center needing max (near max?) after he turns 29. Lot's of question marks there (type of center, center in today's NBA, age, impact in playoffs, etc.). But an expiring Gobert in trade probably doesn't get the value Jazz like -- as discussed in many, many threads here.
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Re: Walker for Mitchell 

Post#6 » by TPV » Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:48 pm

This is really bad for Utah. I think Mitchell is a bit overrated, but he's better than Walker is right now. This isn't really a win-now or win-later deal for Utah. The other parts of the deal don't really matter here.
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Re: Walker for Mitchell 

Post#7 » by Texas Chuck » Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:01 pm

rugbyrugger23 wrote: Walker would have easily 5+ years.


I want to make sure you didn't mistype and mean could and not would? Could he? Sure. Will he? I don't see how we can say that. Small guards tend to age out faster than any other group.

That said I think age is an overrated reason in deciding whether or not to make a trade. The idea that Mitchell is going to be part of Utah's core for the next 7-8 years seems pretty unlikely considering how few players stay with one team that long and he's clearly not a franchise level player at this point and I'm struggling to see a path to that for him.
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Re: Walker for Mitchell 

Post#8 » by Crives » Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:20 pm

I think a package built around Brown might make more sense
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Re: Walker for Mitchell 

Post#9 » by hugepatsfan » Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:46 pm

Crives wrote:I think a package built around Brown might make more sense


Eh, maybe value wise but I don't think it does roster wise on either side.

Utah has a bunch of complimentary players but not anyone who can really lead an offense in the face of that type of defensive pressure. That's not Brown's game. Sure, he scores 20 per game, but Tatum/Kemba are more primary scorers and even though Hayward scores less per game he has more responsibility overall (i.e. playmaking) and gets more defensive focus than Brown.

On the other side, Mitchell is an undersized two that wouldn't pair well on defense with Kemba. His skill set as a primary scorer is less featured alongside Tatum/Kemba as well.

If Utah is for whatever reason committed to moving Mitchell then Brown would be a good talent coming back and they can sort it out later. But IDK why Utah would want to do that and even if they moved him I imagine it would be with the intention of staying a strong competitor. In that case, Brown's not a good fit. I think they could get better.
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Re: Walker for Mitchell 

Post#10 » by rugbyrugger23 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:03 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
rugbyrugger23 wrote: Walker would have easily 5+ years.


I want to make sure you didn't mistype and mean could and not would? Could he? Sure. Will he? I don't see how we can say that. Small guards tend to age out faster than any other group.

That said I think age is an overrated reason in deciding whether or not to make a trade. The idea that Mitchell is going to be part of Utah's core for the next 7-8 years seems pretty unlikely considering how few players stay with one team that long and he's clearly not a franchise level player at this point and I'm struggling to see a path to that for him.

Walker has been in the league 9 seasons and has been extremely healthy. Both of which bode well for him not aging out anytime soon. Meaning, he hasn’t been in league since he was 19 (21yo rookie) and his resiliency has been amazing — small guard or not.

Although Walker is not at Paul’s level, Paul having amazing bounce back year at 34 and also being still in his prime during his 29/30/31 year old seasons, is a great example for Walker to follow (although I am sure you or someone can find fall off the cliff example too).
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Re: Walker for Mitchell 

Post#11 » by Texas Chuck » Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:08 pm

rugbyrugger23 wrote: I am sure you or someone can find fall off the cliff example too.


No I'm not interested in a back and forth where I find Gilbert Arenas and then you find John Stockton and then I find Isaiah Thomas and then you find Steve Nash and then I find Kevin Johnson and so on.

I was just pointing out that 5 years is a long time and we really don't know what Kemba will look like over that span. And small guards don't fare as well as other positions, in part because they are more dependent on speed and quickness due to their lack of size.

I was actually defending the idea of the swap--not that I particularly like it for either team with these specific players--but I have no problem trading a 30 year old 2nd banana type for a 23 year 2nd banana type in the right circumstances.
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Re: Walker for Mitchell 

Post#12 » by SmartWentCrazy » Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:46 pm

hugepatsfan wrote:
Crives wrote:I think a package built around Brown might make more sense


Eh, maybe value wise but I don't think it does roster wise on either side.

Utah has a bunch of complimentary players but not anyone who can really lead an offense in the face of that type of defensive pressure. That's not Brown's game. Sure, he scores 20 per game, but Tatum/Kemba are more primary scorers and even though Hayward scores less per game he has more responsibility overall (i.e. playmaking) and gets more defensive focus than Brown.

On the other side, Mitchell is an undersized two that wouldn't pair well on defense with Kemba. His skill set as a primary scorer is less featured alongside Tatum/Kemba as well.

If Utah is for whatever reason committed to moving Mitchell then Brown would be a good talent coming back and they can sort it out later. But IDK why Utah would want to do that and even if they moved him I imagine it would be with the intention of staying a strong competitor. In that case, Brown's not a good fit. I think they could get better.


That would be Utah’s gamble, no? That Brown could turn into that guy? And Boston’s gamble would be that Mitchell reverts defensively when he’s not the first second and third option? After all, Mitchell was quite the defender in college and has a ridiculous wingspan.

Personally, I think the trade that makes most sense is Brown+Smart for Mitchell+filler. Utah decides to try to win with defense and hope there is still offensive upside to Brown and Smart. Boston pairs Tatum with a guy he’s great friends with in Mitchell and hopes that Mitchell can grow into a 58-60% TS guy with reduced defensive focus. They also hope his defense returns to its pre-draft level when he is able to give less effort on offense.
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Re: Walker for Mitchell 

Post#13 » by Crives » Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:48 pm

SmartWentCrazy wrote:
hugepatsfan wrote:
Crives wrote:I think a package built around Brown might make more sense


Eh, maybe value wise but I don't think it does roster wise on either side.

Utah has a bunch of complimentary players but not anyone who can really lead an offense in the face of that type of defensive pressure. That's not Brown's game. Sure, he scores 20 per game, but Tatum/Kemba are more primary scorers and even though Hayward scores less per game he has more responsibility overall (i.e. playmaking) and gets more defensive focus than Brown.

On the other side, Mitchell is an undersized two that wouldn't pair well on defense with Kemba. His skill set as a primary scorer is less featured alongside Tatum/Kemba as well.

If Utah is for whatever reason committed to moving Mitchell then Brown would be a good talent coming back and they can sort it out later. But IDK why Utah would want to do that and even if they moved him I imagine it would be with the intention of staying a strong competitor. In that case, Brown's not a good fit. I think they could get better.


That would be Utah’s gamble, no? That Brown could turn into that guy? And Boston’s gamble would be that Mitchell reverts defensively when he’s not the first second and third option? After all, Mitchell was quite the defender in college and has a ridiculous wingspan.

Personally, I think the trade that makes most sense is Brown+Smart for Mitchell+filler. Utah decides to try to win with defense and hope there is still offensive upside to Brown and Smart. Boston pairs Tatum with a guy he’s great friends with in Mitchell and hopes that Mitchell can grow into a 58-60% TS guy with reduced defensive focus. They also hope his defense returns to its pre-draft level when he is able to give less effort on offense.


That’s exactly what I was thinking. Brown + Smart for Mitchell.
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Re: Walker for Mitchell 

Post#14 » by Showtime23 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:56 pm

rugbyrugger23 wrote:
hugepatsfan wrote:Not going to lie, I think Mitchell is overrated. However, moving him for a 30 year old PG in Kemba would be one of the dumbest moves in a while. No way Utah should even consider that.

Wow how quickly NBA players become over the hill when they hit 30. :lol: We would should let Walker know 1 month into his 30yo year that fact.

Now, if your argument is Jazz should build around Mitchell and not get older -- sure. I can see that. I just don't see a 38yo past his prime player aging out of the league being traded here. Walker would have easily 5+ years.


Just bc someone hit 30 is washed up is nonsense. i thought lebron wouldbe washed up by now.
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Re: Walker for Mitchell 

Post#15 » by Prokorov » Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:57 pm

Mitchell is 7 years younger, and is owed 2 years 13 million vs kemba at 3 years 105 million.

Mitchell is at least 85-90% the player Kemba is now and likely to be as good or better in the near future with alot more basketball left in him.

Jazz would need more then a non lotto pick and non lotto rookie. when you add conley this makes the jazz worse short and long term. smart doesnt close the gap.

i think it would need to be a brown for mitchell conversaion not a walker for mitchell
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Re: Walker for Mitchell 

Post#16 » by babyjax13 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:58 pm

I'd rather keep Mitchell. I think moving him to point guard will help his advanced metrics a lot, he's an excellent (I think, underrated) player who is playing out of position. The Brown+Smart proposal is more interesting, I think maybe too much value coming our way, but not at all interested in Kemba in a trade where we send out Mitchell.
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Re: Walker for Mitchell 

Post#17 » by JRoy » Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:31 pm

rugbyrugger23 wrote:I am sure this has been discussed before, but who adds value and why or why not???

Celtics Trade:
Walker
Langford
#17 (2020 Memphis FRP)

FOR

Mitchell
Conley
Jazz Trade:

**As an alternative, if you think Jazz need more value, adding Smart to Jazz could be discussed. It would be a nice backcourt in Utah starting Walker and Smart. Is that too much value for Celtics?

--

Celtics Why: Walker is one of their better players, but the chance to get a young Mitchell who is same core fitting age as Tatum and Brown is just too Sweet for Ainge.
C: Theis
F: Tatum
F: Hayward
G: Brown | Mitchell
G: Mitchell | Conley
Could Ainge also trade Hayward + Assets for a core fitting bigman?

Jazz Why: little easier scenario to believe if one thinks some Gobert vs. Mitchell hatchet isn't truly buried. But even without that, a win-now core of Walker and re-signed Gobert and Bogs is exciting in Utah.
C: Gobert
F: O'Neale
F: Bogs
G: Ingles | Langford (Clarkson or Mudiay back?)
G: Walker


Jazz should build around Mitchell and send Conley out in a separate deal.
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Re: Walker for Mitchell 

Post#18 » by hugepatsfan » Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:41 pm

babyjax13 wrote:I'd rather keep Mitchell. I think moving him to point guard will help his advanced metrics a lot, he's an excellent (I think, underrated) player who is playing out of position. The Brown+Smart proposal is more interesting, I think maybe too much value coming our way, but not at all interested in Kemba in a trade where we send out Mitchell.


I agree that a move to PG will help. Or even just someone that can defend 2s, even if Mitchell is still listed in the lineup as the SG.

Since we're talking about a Boston/Utah deal, I think Smart would be a great backcourt mate for Mitchell. Not sure I see a match between the two teams on a deal, but maybe some sort of 3-way deal could be worked out. Scenario I envision would be if Utah decides to send Gobert somewhere ahead of free agency and then redirect some of the return to Boston for Smart.
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Re: Walker for Mitchell 

Post#19 » by rugbyrugger23 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:13 pm

SmartWentCrazy wrote:
hugepatsfan wrote:
Crives wrote:I think a package built around Brown might make more sense


Eh, maybe value wise but I don't think it does roster wise on either side.

Utah has a bunch of complimentary players but not anyone who can really lead an offense in the face of that type of defensive pressure. That's not Brown's game. Sure, he scores 20 per game, but Tatum/Kemba are more primary scorers and even though Hayward scores less per game he has more responsibility overall (i.e. playmaking) and gets more defensive focus than Brown.

On the other side, Mitchell is an undersized two that wouldn't pair well on defense with Kemba. His skill set as a primary scorer is less featured alongside Tatum/Kemba as well.

If Utah is for whatever reason committed to moving Mitchell then Brown would be a good talent coming back and they can sort it out later. But IDK why Utah would want to do that and even if they moved him I imagine it would be with the intention of staying a strong competitor. In that case, Brown's not a good fit. I think they could get better.


That would be Utah’s gamble, no? That Brown could turn into that guy? And Boston’s gamble would be that Mitchell reverts defensively when he’s not the first second and third option? After all, Mitchell was quite the defender in college and has a ridiculous wingspan.

Personally, I think the trade that makes most sense is Brown+Smart for Mitchell+filler. Utah decides to try to win with defense and hope there is still offensive upside to Brown and Smart. Boston pairs Tatum with a guy he’s great friends with in Mitchell and hopes that Mitchell can grow into a 58-60% TS guy with reduced defensive focus. They also hope his defense returns to its pre-draft level when he is able to give less effort on offense.

The OP idea is getting Celtics a young big 3.

Walker + Smart for Mitchell + Conley

Celtics can still throw in some youth and/or picks.

Jazz are really left with the best team they have had in a very long time.

C: Gobert
F: Bogs
F: Ingles
G: Smart
G: Walker
And Jazz would have assets and moveable parts for a consolidation trade too.
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Re: Walker for Mitchell 

Post#20 » by Crives » Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:28 pm

rugbyrugger23 wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:
hugepatsfan wrote:
Eh, maybe value wise but I don't think it does roster wise on either side.

Utah has a bunch of complimentary players but not anyone who can really lead an offense in the face of that type of defensive pressure. That's not Brown's game. Sure, he scores 20 per game, but Tatum/Kemba are more primary scorers and even though Hayward scores less per game he has more responsibility overall (i.e. playmaking) and gets more defensive focus than Brown.

On the other side, Mitchell is an undersized two that wouldn't pair well on defense with Kemba. His skill set as a primary scorer is less featured alongside Tatum/Kemba as well.

If Utah is for whatever reason committed to moving Mitchell then Brown would be a good talent coming back and they can sort it out later. But IDK why Utah would want to do that and even if they moved him I imagine it would be with the intention of staying a strong competitor. In that case, Brown's not a good fit. I think they could get better.


That would be Utah’s gamble, no? That Brown could turn into that guy? And Boston’s gamble would be that Mitchell reverts defensively when he’s not the first second and third option? After all, Mitchell was quite the defender in college and has a ridiculous wingspan.

Personally, I think the trade that makes most sense is Brown+Smart for Mitchell+filler. Utah decides to try to win with defense and hope there is still offensive upside to Brown and Smart. Boston pairs Tatum with a guy he’s great friends with in Mitchell and hopes that Mitchell can grow into a 58-60% TS guy with reduced defensive focus. They also hope his defense returns to its pre-draft level when he is able to give less effort on offense.

The OP idea is getting Celtics a young big 3.

Walker + Smart for Mitchell + Conley

Celtics can still throw in some youth and/or picks.

Jazz are really left with the best team they have had in a very long time.

C: Gobert
F: Bogs
F: Ingles
G: Smart
G: Walker
And Jazz would have assets and moveable parts for a consolidation trade too.


I think Kemba likely makes Utah better next year, but Brown likely makes Utah better over the next 5 years.

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