Barrett for LaVine: who says no?

[HartfordWhalers]

The better trade, for both, is the #6 for Lavine

That is only better for *both* if NYK would rather have Barrett than 6, and Chicago vice versa. I'm not sold on that.

[Chicago-Bull-E]

Seems like a huge disconnect between the general and Bulls fans on the value of Lavine. Decent player, but hes not fetching a guy like Barrett. Might get some useless salary and a pick in the early teens during a bad draft.

May want to read the thread again, there are non bulls fans that think the deal isn't far off or outright like Lavine.

[Rockazoids]

Knicks says no but then the Knicks are notorious for producing busts and RJ is on track to become one.
Lavine is close to a finished product which the Knicks always prefer over developing young talent.
If the Knicks want to be relevant faster, they need to make this trade to pair superstars with Lavines team friendly contract.

Say the Knick somehow get Giannis/Oladipo, now your looking at a potential dynasty with Lavine.
Its a longshot but still 10x better odds than having bunch of rookies and having 0% chance at 2021 FA class.
Oladipo/Lavine/Giannis/Robinson core will rule the East at least a decade.

What top three pick have the Knicks had that turned into bust? None you're just making stuff up. Can you prove that RJ is on track to be a bust? If Lavine is a finished product you damn sure can keep him because that's a finished product you don't want leading your team.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using RealGM mobile app

He didn't single out top three selections. In the past three drafts, we have selected two players who have played bust-esque levels of basketball (although I hope Frank turns it around and plays out his mind going forward), and jury is still out on player 3 who is still a project.

Read the blue highlighted part again.

[drosereturn]

Seems like a huge disconnect between the general and Bulls fans on the value of Lavine. Decent player, but hes not fetching a guy like Barrett. Might get some useless salary and a pick in the early teens during a bad draft.

The difference between RJ and Lavine isnt that huge esp after Lavine had a huge leap and RJ played like a bust for a number 1 prospect. Granted, its only 1 yr and plenty of great players had terrible rookies which is why he still has more value than Lavine.

My valuation would be RJ+ toxic contract=Lavine or Lavine +Carter= RJ+ DSJ+Knox+ Frank

[Prospect Dong]

Am I the only one who thinks Lavines value is salary relief (expiring) and a lower lottery/higher teen pick? Knicks will always Knicks, but generally I really dont think he is valued anywhere near a player like Barrett even with all things considered.

Depending on how yo evaluate RJ's rookie (3/4) season there's not a hug difference between your assessment and the OP. Barrett was a clear #3 in a bad (but not terrible) draft and he's been pretty bad. Way too soon to call him a bust, but he's not worth what he was on draft day, and most rookies who play like him don't end up as even decent starters.

I'm a sucker for top HS prospects, so I probably put him at around 8 or 9 in a neutral draft, and higher in this one. But you could argue late lotto and I wouldn't think you were crazy...

[Prospect Dong]

Knicks says no but then the Knicks are notorious for producing busts and RJ is on track to become one.
Lavine is close to a finished product which the Knicks always prefer over developing young talent.
If the Knicks want to be relevant faster, they need to make this trade to pair superstars with Lavines team friendly contract.

Say the Knick somehow get Giannis/Oladipo, now your looking at a potential dynasty with Lavine.
Its a longshot but still 10x better odds than having bunch of rookies and having 0% chance at 2021 FA class.
Oladipo/Lavine/Giannis/Robinson core will rule the East at least a decade.

That's an exaggeration. You go through any team in the leagues draft history and there are plenty of busts. The Knicks have drafted a lot of players that have been very productive players in the league.

Kristaps Porzingis, Channing Frye, Iman Shumpert, Trevor Ariza, David Lee, Wilson Chandler, Danilo Gallinari, Tim Hardaway Jr and Nene Hilario were all drafted by the Knicks since 2000. That's nine players that are either higher level guys or useful role players with long NBA careers.

Kevin Knox looks like a bust but Mitchell Robinson looks like a steal right now. RJ Barrett was kind of erratic in year one but showed enough flashes for me to be optimistic. Frank Ntilinkia might not be the point guard of the future we had wanted but he still looks like he's capable of sticking around in the league with his defense alone. He shot better this year and if he can keep that improvement up he might still turn into an Iman Shumpert type player himself. Daymean Dotson also has promise and would probably thrive on a team that actually plays their young guys.

So don't sleep on the Knicks drafting ability. These guys may develop better once they leave because our player development process blows but we find quality guys in the draft.

I don't think there's a lot of value in going back to 2000, several changes of management ago. Isiah Thomas was, for all his faults, pretty great with later picks, but he hasn't worked there in years. We can agree there's nothing in the air that stops the Knicks from draft well, but their recent record is at least a little below average, IMO.

If I'm picking nits, Frye probably has to count as a slight miss at, what, #8. And Nene was drafted on Denver's behalf.

[LightTheBeam]

Seems like a huge disconnect between the general and Bulls fans on the value of Lavine. Decent player, but hes not fetching a guy like Barrett. Might get some useless salary and a pick in the early teens during a bad draft.

The difference between RJ and Lavine isnt that huge esp after Lavine had a huge leap and RJ played like a bust for a number 1 prospect. Granted, its only 1 yr and plenty of great players had terrible rookies which is why he still has more value than Lavine.

My valuation would be RJ+ toxic contract=Lavine or Lavine +Carter= RJ+ DSJ+Knox+ Frank

Its shocking to me how quickly the community is to call 19 year olds a bust. What did we expect from him on an awful knicks team? Did we think he would lead them to a 40 win season while averaging 20ppg on 45% shooting?

Hes shown plenty of enough flashes to expect development.

I'm honestly just not sure how to rate Zach. Hes excels offensively but I don't think a good team utilizes him as a top 2 option. He doesn't bring enough aside from scoring to impact the game elsewhere. Hes a fun exciting kid to watch, just seems like hes destined for that good stats bad team role.

[JB2]

Knicks says no but then the Knicks are notorious for producing busts and RJ is on track to become one.
Lavine is close to a finished product which the Knicks always prefer over developing young talent.
If the Knicks want to be relevant faster, they need to make this trade to pair superstars with Lavines team friendly contract.

Say the Knick somehow get Giannis/Oladipo, now your looking at a potential dynasty with Lavine.
Its a longshot but still 10x better odds than having bunch of rookies and having 0% chance at 2021 FA class.
Oladipo/Lavine/Giannis/Robinson core will rule the East at least a decade.

That's an exaggeration. You go through any team in the leagues draft history and there are plenty of busts. The Knicks have drafted a lot of players that have been very productive players in the league.

Kristaps Porzingis, Channing Frye, Iman Shumpert, Trevor Ariza, David Lee, Wilson Chandler, Danilo Gallinari, Tim Hardaway Jr and Nene Hilario were all drafted by the Knicks since 2000. That's nine players that are either higher level guys or useful role players with long NBA careers.

Kevin Knox looks like a bust but Mitchell Robinson looks like a steal right now. RJ Barrett was kind of erratic in year one but showed enough flashes for me to be optimistic. Frank Ntilinkia might not be the point guard of the future we had wanted but he still looks like he's capable of sticking around in the league with his defense alone. He shot better this year and if he can keep that improvement up he might still turn into an Iman Shumpert type player himself. Daymean Dotson also has promise and would probably thrive on a team that actually plays their young guys.

So don't sleep on the Knicks drafting ability. These guys may develop better once they leave because our player development process blows but we find quality guys in the draft.

9 players in 20 years of drafting is not evidence of good drafting. Sorry to burst you bubble.

Only thing worse than their drafting is their development.

I feel for you Knicks fans.

[Prospect Dong]

I think the Knicks say no, FWIW, and maybe the bulls too. My guess is that Lavine ends up having a noticeably better career, but RJ's got more long shot upside. That matters a lot when valuing young guys on rookie contracts, and it matters even more to a barren wasteland like the Knicks. They add a plausible-best-case Lavine and a plausible best-case offseason and they're still probably a Beal short of the Wizards. They need multiple top 30 players and RJ has the better chance of becoming one...

[bondom34]

I have Barrett as less value than when he was drafted, but still definitely positive and a player teams would love to take a shot at. By some accounts he'd be the first pick in this year's draft, I know I've heard draft people saying this.

Lavine is distinctly not that. And is not worth that. The Knicks should not and I don't think would consider this at all and I don't see it too close.

[Prospect Dong]

I have Barrett as less value than when he was drafted, but still definitely positive and a player teams would love to take a shot at. By some accounts he'd be the first pick in this year's draft, I know I've heard draft people saying this.

Lavine is distinctly not that. And is not worth that. The Knicks should not and I don't think would consider this at all and I don't see it too close.

I believe you've heard this said, but I don't really buy it. "RJ (based on what we knew about him prior to last year's draft)" could absolutely go number 1, IMO, but "RJ (who we've now seen playing for most of a season in the actual NBA and it didn't go great and it looked a lot like his troubled college season)" would be, what, 7th or 8th maybe, in a redo of his own, weak, draft. I find it hard to believe there were, like, 6+ guys last year (again, in a not great draft) who are better than any of this year's top prospects.

But I'm only reasoning from first principles, so maybe I'm wrong. It would be an amazing indictment of this draft if it were true...

[bondom34]

I have Barrett as less value than when he was drafted, but still definitely positive and a player teams would love to take a shot at. By some accounts he'd be the first pick in this year's draft, I know I've heard draft people saying this.

Lavine is distinctly not that. And is not worth that. The Knicks should not and I don't think would consider this at all and I don't see it too close.

I believe you've heard this said, but I don't really buy it. "RJ (based on what we knew about him prior to last year's draft)" could absolutely go number 1, IMO, but "RJ (who we've now seen playing for most of a season in the actual NBA and it didn't go great and it looked a lot like his troubled college season)" would be, what, 7th or 8th maybe, in a redo of his own, weak, draft. I find it hard to believe there were, like, 6+ guys last year (again, in a not great draft) who are better than any of this year's top prospects.

But I'm only reasoning from first principles, so maybe I'm wrong. It would be an amazing indictment of this draft if it were true...

I'm not totally sure, it might have been as prospects (I know Sam Vecenie has said it) but at the same time it is an indictment on this draft lol. Edit: On second thought that you say it I'm pretty sure it was, but it's only been a year.

Saying that, Barrett wasn't great this year but knowing his situation I'm much more open to giving him a shot. He'd have been still on one of the two all rookie teams I think offhand. So I guess even at that point (and correct me but say Zion, Morant, Clarke, White, Herro, Thybulle, maybe Reddish would be around his level of prospect and then he's probably it). So Lavine vs a top 8ish prospect from last year's draft seems a pretty clear call.

Also to note, Vecenie had him as the 26th ranked rookie contract prospect, just ahead of OG Anunoby and Reddish. And I don't see Lavine as even a good asset.

[PharmD]

What top three pick have the Knicks had that turned into bust? None you're just making stuff up. Can you prove that RJ is on track to be a bust? If Lavine is a finished product you damn sure can keep him because that's a finished product you don't want leading your team.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using RealGM mobile app

He didn't single out top three selections. In the past three drafts, we have selected two players who have played bust-esque levels of basketball (although I hope Frank turns it around and plays out his mind going forward), and jury is still out on player 3 who is still a project.

Read the blue highlighted part again.

There is no singling out of top three selections in the part you highlighted.

[Ruzious]

Am I the only one who thinks Lavines value is salary relief (expiring) and a lower lottery/higher teen pick? Knicks will always Knicks, but generally I really dont think he is valued anywhere near a player like Barrett even with all things considered.

Does it matter that Barrett's stunk this season and Lavine is a far better player? Granted RJ's very young, but his scoring efficiency was so bad. We don't know if he'll ever become a decent shooter.

[-YogiBiz-]

What top three pick have the Knicks had that turned into bust? None you're just making stuff up. Can you prove that RJ is on track to be a bust? If Lavine is a finished product you damn sure can keep him because that's a finished product you don't want leading your team.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using RealGM mobile app

He didn't single out top three selections. In the past three drafts, we have selected two players who have played bust-esque levels of basketball (although I hope Frank turns it around and plays out his mind going forward), and jury is still out on player 3 who is still a project.

Read the blue highlighted part again.

Knicks says no but then the Knicks are notorious for producing busts and RJ is on track to become one.

[Knickfan1982]

Knicks says no but then the Knicks are notorious for producing busts and RJ is on track to become one.
Lavine is close to a finished product which the Knicks always prefer over developing young talent.
If the Knicks want to be relevant faster, they need to make this trade to pair superstars with Lavines team friendly contract.

Say the Knick somehow get Giannis/Oladipo, now your looking at a potential dynasty with Lavine.
Its a longshot but still 10x better odds than having bunch of rookies and having 0% chance at 2021 FA class.
Oladipo/Lavine/Giannis/Robinson core will rule the East at least a decade.

That's an exaggeration. You go through any team in the leagues draft history and there are plenty of busts. The Knicks have drafted a lot of players that have been very productive players in the league.

Kristaps Porzingis, Channing Frye, Iman Shumpert, Trevor Ariza, David Lee, Wilson Chandler, Danilo Gallinari, Tim Hardaway Jr and Nene Hilario were all drafted by the Knicks since 2000. That's nine players that are either higher level guys or useful role players with long NBA careers.

Kevin Knox looks like a bust but Mitchell Robinson looks like a steal right now. RJ Barrett was kind of erratic in year one but showed enough flashes for me to be optimistic. Frank Ntilinkia might not be the point guard of the future we had wanted but he still looks like he's capable of sticking around in the league with his defense alone. He shot better this year and if he can keep that improvement up he might still turn into an Iman Shumpert type player himself. Daymean Dotson also has promise and would probably thrive on a team that actually plays their young guys.

So don't sleep on the Knicks drafting ability. These guys may develop better once they leave because our player development process blows but we find quality guys in the draft.

9 players in 20 years of drafting is not evidence of good drafting. Sorry to burst you bubble.

Only thing worse than their drafting is their development.

I feel for you Knicks fans.

Wow. Way to take an overly negative viewpoint of things.