Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando

Moderators: Texas Chuck, pacers33granger, HartfordWhalers, Mamba4Goat, Andre Roberstan, Trader_Joe, loserX

Who is worth more?

John Collins
9
25%
Jonathan Isaac
23
64%
Equal in value
4
11%
 
Total votes: 36

Godaddycurse
Rookie
Posts: 1,028
And1: 449
Joined: Nov 13, 2019
 

Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#1 » by Godaddycurse » Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:37 am

trade 1: Capela for Hayward, Kanter

why for boston: duck the tax and fill hole at 5 with a solid starter/rim protector to throw at giannis/embiid in the east
why for atlanta: get a secondary playmaker with good range because of the following transactions:

trade 2: Collins, Dedmon for Isaac, Aminu (maybe add Atl 2020 pick (or pick swap) if it's not enough..? Not sure who is worth more and by how much actually)

Why for Orlando: get a 20/10 scorer thats a better fit next to Gordon and Fultz with his range and P&R abilities, shave a year off aminu's deal
Why for Atlanta: get an all world defender next to trae

FA: sign Ibaka to 3 yr 40-45 mil to fill in void left by capela, get more range to avoid cluttering w/ isaac in the half court.

Ibaka/Kanter
Isaac/Aminu
Hayward/Hunter
Reddish/Huerter
Young

I think this team will more than make up for Young's deficiency on the defensive side and can make some serious noise in the east.
Radioblacktive1
Senior
Posts: 500
And1: 389
Joined: Jun 26, 2017
   

Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#2 » by Radioblacktive1 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:28 am

That first trade I don’t hate. The second kinda seems like us getting cracked over the head a bit. I love Jonathan Isaac but he hasn’t put his game together enough to warrant our second star, our veteran defensive anchor, AND our 2020 first and in my opinion, adding Aminu is nowhere near enough to soften the blow there. On Orlando’s side, I’m not sure this is worth doing. The fit with Collins and Gordon is essentially the Spiderman meme, though the Hawks fan in me prefers Collins. I don’t know, I don’t think it’s a horrible by any stretch, I just I’m not sure I’d do any of these. That lineup does look playoff-y on paper though I can’t lie.
Resistance
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,905
And1: 1,555
Joined: Jan 18, 2016

Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#3 » by Resistance » Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:46 am

What contract is Hayward on when he is traded?
jjohns828
Rookie
Posts: 1,204
And1: 358
Joined: Jul 11, 2012
   

Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#4 » by jjohns828 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:48 am

I'd rather keep Isaac unless we're getting a serious overpay for him.
zaymon
Starter
Posts: 2,056
And1: 1,114
Joined: Jul 01, 2015
   

Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#5 » by zaymon » Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:17 am

We are not trading Isaac. Collins is a very good player but he cant be the anchor of a defense and you need that from your pf if you want to build a successful defense. Collins is a great floor raiser, but not a great ceiling raiser.
Bold Predictions:
1. Deandre Ayton biggest disappointment of 2018 draft.
2. Nick Nurse becomes Orlando Magic Head Coach. (15.04.2018)
Ball4life32
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,920
And1: 1,472
Joined: Dec 05, 2013

Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#6 » by Ball4life32 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:21 am

Not a fan of any of these deals for Atlanta. I don’t see them looking to add multiple 30+ yr old players to their younger roster.

Also yet another guy Collins has been a good bit better than yet somehow he has way less value/ceiling to some. No thanks to the Collins for Isaac swap & definitely would not add a pick.

Career: (both 22 yrs old)
John Collins: 16.2 points, 8.8 rebounds, 1.1 blocks -
.634 TS%, 21.0 PER, 1.58 WS/48, 1.1 BPM, 3.9 VORP

Jonathan Isaac: 9.3 point, 5.5 rebounds, 1.5 blocks -
.529 TS%, 13.6 PER, 0.89 WS/48, 0.1 BPM, 1.9 VORP
Buzzard
Analyst
Posts: 3,343
And1: 2,261
Joined: May 16, 2018
     

Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#7 » by Buzzard » Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:38 am

Ball4life32 wrote:Not a fan of any of these deals for Atlanta. I don’t see them looking to add multiple 30+ yr old players to their younger roster.

Also yet another guy Collins has been a good bit better than yet Hawks have to add a pick too? No thanks. Would not trade Collins for Isaac straight up.

Career:
John Collins: 16.2 points, 8.8 rebounds, 1.1 blocks -
.634 TS%, 21.0 PER, 1.58 WS/48, 1.1 BPM, 3.9 VORP

Jonathan Isaac: 9.3 point, 5.5 rebounds, 1.5 blocks -
.529 TS%, 13.6 PER, 0.89 WS/48, 0.1 BPM, 1.9 VORP

People are drinking a lot of upside kool aid on Isaac at 22 but in almost the very same sentence want to declare Collins peaked at 22. This proves the bias and poor quality in some fans ability to apply reasoning for similar age players. Isaac at 22 has great upside, Collins at 22 has poor upside. I see their views as lets throw good sense out the window and go with wishy washy as hell.

Pass all day on most any trade that involves Collins for Isaac.
"Offense sells tickets, defense wins games, rebounding wins championships." Pat Summitt

"Offense sells tickets, defense wins championships." Paul Bear Bryant
Godaddycurse
Rookie
Posts: 1,028
And1: 449
Joined: Nov 13, 2019
 

Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#8 » by Godaddycurse » Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:56 am

Buzzard wrote:
Ball4life32 wrote:Not a fan of any of these deals for Atlanta. I don’t see them looking to add multiple 30+ yr old players to their younger roster.

Also yet another guy Collins has been a good bit better than yet Hawks have to add a pick too? No thanks. Would not trade Collins for Isaac straight up.

Career:
John Collins: 16.2 points, 8.8 rebounds, 1.1 blocks -
.634 TS%, 21.0 PER, 1.58 WS/48, 1.1 BPM, 3.9 VORP

Jonathan Isaac: 9.3 point, 5.5 rebounds, 1.5 blocks -
.529 TS%, 13.6 PER, 0.89 WS/48, 0.1 BPM, 1.9 VORP

People are drinking a lot of upside kool aid on Isaac at 22 but in almost the very same sentence want to declare Collins peaked at 22. This proves the bias and poor quality in some fans ability to apply reasoning for similar age players. Isaac at 22 has great upside, Collins at 22 has poor upside. I see their views as lets throw good sense out the door and go with wishy washy as hell.

Pass all day on most any trade that involves Collins for Isaac.


I personally think they seem pretty equal in value.. same age, contract, one is great on offense ok on defense, orher is meh on offense but awesome on D..
Both seem to fit the other teams' needs better too
Godaddycurse
Rookie
Posts: 1,028
And1: 449
Joined: Nov 13, 2019
 

Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#9 » by Godaddycurse » Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:57 am

Resistance wrote:What contract is Hayward on when he is traded?


Er i guess his existing one? Ie accepted PO
Buzzard
Analyst
Posts: 3,343
And1: 2,261
Joined: May 16, 2018
     

Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#10 » by Buzzard » Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:59 am

Godaddycurse wrote:
Buzzard wrote:
Ball4life32 wrote:Not a fan of any of these deals for Atlanta. I don’t see them looking to add multiple 30+ yr old players to their younger roster.

Also yet another guy Collins has been a good bit better than yet Hawks have to add a pick too? No thanks. Would not trade Collins for Isaac straight up.

Career:
John Collins: 16.2 points, 8.8 rebounds, 1.1 blocks -
.634 TS%, 21.0 PER, 1.58 WS/48, 1.1 BPM, 3.9 VORP

Jonathan Isaac: 9.3 point, 5.5 rebounds, 1.5 blocks -
.529 TS%, 13.6 PER, 0.89 WS/48, 0.1 BPM, 1.9 VORP

People are drinking a lot of upside kool aid on Isaac at 22 but in almost the very same sentence want to declare Collins peaked at 22. This proves the bias and poor quality in some fans ability to apply reasoning for similar age players. Isaac at 22 has great upside, Collins at 22 has poor upside. I see their views as lets throw good sense out the door and go with wishy washy as hell.

Pass all day on most any trade that involves Collins for Isaac.


I personally think they seem pretty equal in value.. same age, contract, one is great on offense ok on defense, orher is meh on offense but awesome on D..
Both seem to fit the other teams' needs better too

The Magic had a better won/loss record while Isaac was injured. The Hawks had a horribly worse won/loss record while Collins was suspended. Its really not close.
"Offense sells tickets, defense wins games, rebounding wins championships." Pat Summitt

"Offense sells tickets, defense wins championships." Paul Bear Bryant
Godaddycurse
Rookie
Posts: 1,028
And1: 449
Joined: Nov 13, 2019
 

Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#11 » by Godaddycurse » Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:00 pm

Ball4life32 wrote:Not a fan of any of these deals for Atlanta. I don’t see them looking to add multiple 30+ yr old players to their younger roster.

Also yet another guy Collins has been a good bit better than yet somehow he has way less value/ceiling to some. No thanks to the Collins for Isaac swap & definitely would not add a pick.

Career: (both 22 yrs old)
John Collins: 16.2 points, 8.8 rebounds, 1.1 blocks -
.634 TS%, 21.0 PER, 1.58 WS/48, 1.1 BPM, 3.9 VORP

Jonathan Isaac: 9.3 point, 5.5 rebounds, 1.5 blocks -
.529 TS%, 13.6 PER, 0.89 WS/48, 0.1 BPM, 1.9 VORP


I think if we just look at this years stats it becomes closer, and Collins does have benefit of playing with trae while isaac is stuck with gordon. I had them kinda equal in value moving forward.. doesnt seem to make sense to compare career for rookies if some take longer than others to make a leap since the avg will be skewed alot by early poor year(s).
NotACat
Starter
Posts: 2,271
And1: 1,099
Joined: Apr 28, 2018

Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#12 » by NotACat » Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:13 pm

As others have said, Isaac is near untouchable.
Black Lives Matter
Ball4life32
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,920
And1: 1,472
Joined: Dec 05, 2013

Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#13 » by Ball4life32 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:22 pm

Godaddycurse wrote:
Ball4life32 wrote:Not a fan of any of these deals for Atlanta. I don’t see them looking to add multiple 30+ yr old players to their younger roster.

Also yet another guy Collins has been a good bit better than yet somehow he has way less value/ceiling to some. No thanks to the Collins for Isaac swap & definitely would not add a pick.

Career: (both 22 yrs old)
John Collins: 16.2 points, 8.8 rebounds, 1.1 blocks -
.634 TS%, 21.0 PER, 1.58 WS/48, 1.1 BPM, 3.9 VORP

Jonathan Isaac: 9.3 point, 5.5 rebounds, 1.5 blocks -
.529 TS%, 13.6 PER, 0.89 WS/48, 0.1 BPM, 1.9 VORP


I think if we just look at this years stats it becomes closer, and Collins does have benefit of playing with trae while isaac is stuck with gordon. I had them kinda equal in value moving forward.. doesnt seem to make sense to compare career for rookies if some take longer than others to make a leap since the avg will be skewed alot by early poor year(s).

It’s a little closer but I went with career bc both missed a chunk of the season. Here are the same stats from this season below.

John Collins: 21.6 points, 10.0 rebounds, 1.6 blocks -
.659 TS%, 23.5 PER, 1.74 WS/48, 3.1 BPM,1.7 VORP

Jonathan Isaac: 12.0 point, 6.9 rebounds, 2.4 blocks -
.542 TS%, 16.0 PER, .114 WS/48, 2.0 BPM, 1.0 VORP

Agree on the fit with Gordon-Isaac at the 3/4. I think they need to surround Isaac with better shooters.

Also I think the same for Collins as he has played with poor fits on both ends for most of his career. (Alex Len, Damion Jones, Dewayne Dedmon, 40+ yr old Vince Carter, Taurean Prince, rookie Bruno Fernando) Never been a fan of him next to slower footed C’s or undersized 4’s who already struggle defensively. And offensively that group is pretty bad as well.

Also no doubt Trae does help Collins but Collins has also dropped 30+ points 3 times without Trae in a small sample size this year.
Buzzard
Analyst
Posts: 3,343
And1: 2,261
Joined: May 16, 2018
     

Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#14 » by Buzzard » Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:30 pm

Ball4life32 wrote:
Godaddycurse wrote:
Ball4life32 wrote:Not a fan of any of these deals for Atlanta. I don’t see them looking to add multiple 30+ yr old players to their younger roster.

Also yet another guy Collins has been a good bit better than yet somehow he has way less value/ceiling to some. No thanks to the Collins for Isaac swap & definitely would not add a pick.

Career: (both 22 yrs old)
John Collins: 16.2 points, 8.8 rebounds, 1.1 blocks -
.634 TS%, 21.0 PER, 1.58 WS/48, 1.1 BPM, 3.9 VORP

Jonathan Isaac: 9.3 point, 5.5 rebounds, 1.5 blocks -
.529 TS%, 13.6 PER, 0.89 WS/48, 0.1 BPM, 1.9 VORP


I think if we just look at this years stats it becomes closer, and Collins does have benefit of playing with trae while isaac is stuck with gordon. I had them kinda equal in value moving forward.. doesnt seem to make sense to compare career for rookies if some take longer than others to make a leap since the avg will be skewed alot by early poor year(s).

It’s a little closer but I went with career bc both missed a chunk of the season. Here are the same stats from this season below.

John Collins: 21.6 points, 10.0 rebounds, 1.6 blocks -
.659 TS%, 23.5 PER, 1.74 WS/48, 3.1 BPM,1.7 VORP

Jonathan Isaac: 12.0 point, 6.9 rebounds, 2.4 blocks -
.542 TS%, 16.0 PER, .114 WS/48, 2.0 BPM, 1.0 VORP

Agree on the fit with Gordon-Isaac at the 3/4. I think they need to surround Isaac with better shooters.

Also I think the same for Collins as he played with poor fits on both ends for most of his career. (Alex Len, Damion Jones, Dewayne Dedmon, 40+ yr old Vince Carter, Taurean Prince) Never been a fan of him next to slower footed C’s or undersized 4’s who already struggle defensively. And offensively that group is pretty bad as well.

Also no doubt Trae does help Collins but Collins has also dropped 30+ points 3 times without Trae in a small sample size this year.

I think Collins is about to take another big leap. He may take a small hit in rebounds but his scoring is going to get a nice uptick. Along with improved defense. I am looking for 23-24 and 9 next season with the same great efficiency.

At only 22, Collins is on a trajectory to one day average 25 points a game for a season.
"Offense sells tickets, defense wins games, rebounding wins championships." Pat Summitt

"Offense sells tickets, defense wins championships." Paul Bear Bryant
Skybox
Starter
Posts: 2,490
And1: 1,445
Joined: Jan 21, 2017
 

Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#15 » by Skybox » Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:57 pm

Isaac is NOT untouchable...just include Trae in the deal
SmartWentCrazy
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 15,694
And1: 24,752
Joined: Dec 29, 2014

Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#16 » by SmartWentCrazy » Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:38 pm

I have Isaac as more valuable than Collins by a decent margin and I’m someone who’s generally more skeptical on Isaac than the consensus.
kg01
Head Coach
Posts: 6,062
And1: 7,893
Joined: Jun 28, 2017
 

Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#17 » by kg01 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:50 pm

I like Isaac but isn't he showing to be a bit injury prone?
king01 :king:
shakes0
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,950
And1: 2,179
Joined: Jul 14, 2017
Location: Chicago
       

Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#18 » by shakes0 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:51 pm

I'd rather have Collins than Isaac. That assume we have a defensive center (we do) to pair him up with.
User avatar
tiderulz
RealGM
Posts: 29,700
And1: 10,653
Joined: Jun 16, 2010
Location: Atlanta
 

Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#19 » by tiderulz » Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:13 pm

Buzzard wrote:
Ball4life32 wrote:Not a fan of any of these deals for Atlanta. I don’t see them looking to add multiple 30+ yr old players to their younger roster.

Also yet another guy Collins has been a good bit better than yet Hawks have to add a pick too? No thanks. Would not trade Collins for Isaac straight up.

Career:
John Collins: 16.2 points, 8.8 rebounds, 1.1 blocks -
.634 TS%, 21.0 PER, 1.58 WS/48, 1.1 BPM, 3.9 VORP

Jonathan Isaac: 9.3 point, 5.5 rebounds, 1.5 blocks -
.529 TS%, 13.6 PER, 0.89 WS/48, 0.1 BPM, 1.9 VORP

People are drinking a lot of upside kool aid on Isaac at 22 but in almost the very same sentence want to declare Collins peaked at 22. This proves the bias and poor quality in some fans ability to apply reasoning for similar age players. Isaac at 22 has great upside, Collins at 22 has poor upside. I see their views as lets throw good sense out the window and go with wishy washy as hell.

Pass all day on most any trade that involves Collins for Isaac.

think it just depends on the role. Collins a better scorer than Isaac right now and likely in the future. Isaac is already a better defender and someone that can anchor a defense right now and projected as DPOY candidate from multiple sources.

like i said, just depends on the role you need.
User avatar
Texas Chuck
Senior Mod - Mavericks and NBA TnT Forum
Senior Mod - Mavericks and NBA TnT Forum
Posts: 52,815
And1: 40,912
Joined: May 19, 2012
   

Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#20 » by Texas Chuck » Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:21 pm

SmartWentCrazy wrote:I have Isaac as more valuable than Collins by a decent margin and I’m someone who’s generally more skeptical on Isaac than the consensus.



Yeah I think its pretty clear Collins is currently the better player, but his specific game has a clear ceiling. Him helping a really bad team win a few more games isn't that meaningful. Meanwhile Isaac may never unlock enough offense but if he does--and being a high 30's 3 pt shooter or turning into a rim runner doesn't feel all that unlikely--his defensive potential is a game changer.

I'd definitely pay a lot more for Isaac than Collins because of that while acknowledging he might never get there.
Black Lives Matter

Return to Trades and Transactions