Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando

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Who is worth more?

John Collins
9
25%
Jonathan Isaac
23
64%
Equal in value
4
11%
 
Total votes: 36

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Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#61 » by zaymon » Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:13 pm

Buzzard wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:
Buzzard wrote:
What I am reading here is Collins improved the Hawks offensively and defensively; and Isaac improved the Magic defensively. You can take bad team, average team, good team out of the equation. Collins cannot help he is on a bad team and Isaac cannot help he is on a average team. The on/off improvement or not is all that matters. I prefer Collins and this is not rocket science.

The Hawks flat out cannot afford to replace Collins, 21.6, 10.1, FG% 58.3, 3P% 40.1, TS% .659 with Isaac 12.0, 6.9, FG% 46.3, 3P% 33.0, TS% .542.

Isaac as I said would be a great fit on a good offensive team. I am not arguing against him for a good offensive team. Unfortunately the Magic as currently built and the Hawks without Collins are not that. The Hawks were 30th in Offensive Rating without Collins. As stated earlier, this trade is a pass all day.

14 out of 24 votes who say Isaac has more value is hardly a landslide in Isaac's favor.


A) its easier to improve a terrible team to bad than a bad team to above average, no? I believe it is, as such I weight what Isaac does more than Collins when assessing value. I also value one player being able to make something elite [said another way, Isaac has an elite skill while Collins does not]

B) Understood the Hawks need Collins O. I believe that DPOY level big men have more value than mediocre D, great O big men. We can agree to disagree if you prefer.

C) I didn't say anything regarding the poll results; rather, I speculated more teams would prefer Isaac to Collins.

I do not believe in your point about being easy to turn around a bad team. Playing with poor teammates is never a plus. Missed assignments, rotations, turnovers, nothing good and quite disheartening to be honest.

The idea is your teammates help make you better. Playing around a bunch of vets is a plus. Isaac definitely has a strong advantage in that regard. He was the youngest player in their primary rotation. Collins was the oldest minus Alex Len and then Dedmon.

Hawks are flat out to young to compete right now; hopefully things get better. Capela at 26 is a solid start.

Collins and Trae are solids. Orlando should shop for a efficient scorer like Collins; but that is much easier said than done. Just judging by the recent contracts, 18 efficient points a game starts at around 20 million a year and goes up.

We wont trade for Collins becouse we think having a forward who is average defensively puts a ceiling on a team. His offense is nice but how much he is using his skill when he is spoting up for Trae ? Thats why there are many rumors about his fit, his skillset makes him more expensive but less useful. When you cant handle the ball or create for others or pull up for shots you are not really as valueable as your stats imply.
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Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#62 » by Richard4444 » Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:16 pm

Collins and Isaac are max players. They could accept a extension for a little less. But I think they will demand the max.

I think a talent less team like Knciks would offer than the Max in 2021.

With the pandemic and the salary cap reduction for the next 2 seasons, their salary could be a still beyond 2023.
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Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#63 » by Buzzard » Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:25 pm

zaymon wrote:
Buzzard wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:
A) its easier to improve a terrible team to bad than a bad team to above average, no? I believe it is, as such I weight what Isaac does more than Collins when assessing value. I also value one player being able to make something elite [said another way, Isaac has an elite skill while Collins does not]

B) Understood the Hawks need Collins O. I believe that DPOY level big men have more value than mediocre D, great O big men. We can agree to disagree if you prefer.

C) I didn't say anything regarding the poll results; rather, I speculated more teams would prefer Isaac to Collins.

I do not believe in your point about being easy to turn around a bad team. Playing with poor teammates is never a plus. Missed assignments, rotations, turnovers, nothing good and quite disheartening to be honest.

The idea is your teammates help make you better. Playing around a bunch of vets is a plus. Isaac definitely has a strong advantage in that regard. He was the youngest player in their primary rotation. Collins was the oldest minus Alex Len and then Dedmon.

Hawks are flat out to young to compete right now; hopefully things get better. Capela at 26 is a solid start.

Collins and Trae are solids. Orlando should shop for a efficient scorer like Collins; but that is much easier said than done. Just judging by the recent contracts, 18 efficient points a game starts at around 20 million a year and goes up.

We wont trade for Collins becouse we think having a forward who is average defensively puts a ceiling on a team. His offense is nice but how much he is using his skill when he is spoting up for Trae ? Thats why there are many rumors about his fit, his skillset makes him more expensive but less useful. When you cant handle the ball or create for others or pull up for shots you are not really as valueable as your stats imply.

I think you are reading to much into Collins needing Trae. He has not played many games without Trae, but when he does he is still a 20 and 10 machine.

The 6 games this year that Trae missed, he averaged 23 and 10. In 3 of those 6 games he put up 26 and 10 or better. Collins is a beast even with a 2nd or 3rd level point guard like Teague or Goodwin ( you have probably never even heard of him ).
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Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#64 » by Buzzard » Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:28 pm

Richard4444 wrote:Collins and Isaac are max players. They could accept a extension for a little less. But I think they will demand the max.

I think a talent less team like Knciks would offer than the Max in 2021.

With the pandemic and the salary cap reduction for the next 2 seasons, their salary could be a still beyond 2023.

Collins will get a BIG offer that will require the Hawks to match. He is banking on it all day.
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Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#65 » by zaymon » Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:30 pm

Buzzard wrote:
zaymon wrote:
Buzzard wrote:I do not believe in your point about being easy to turn around a bad team. Playing with poor teammates is never a plus. Missed assignments, rotations, turnovers, nothing good and quite disheartening to be honest.

The idea is your teammates help make you better. Playing around a bunch of vets is a plus. Isaac definitely has a strong advantage in that regard. He was the youngest player in their primary rotation. Collins was the oldest minus Alex Len and then Dedmon.

Hawks are flat out to young to compete right now; hopefully things get better. Capela at 26 is a solid start.

Collins and Trae are solids. Orlando should shop for a efficient scorer like Collins; but that is much easier said than done. Just judging by the recent contracts, 18 efficient points a game starts at around 20 million a year and goes up.

We wont trade for Collins becouse we think having a forward who is average defensively puts a ceiling on a team. His offense is nice but how much he is using his skill when he is spoting up for Trae ? Thats why there are many rumors about his fit, his skillset makes him more expensive but less useful. When you cant handle the ball or create for others or pull up for shots you are not really as valueable as your stats imply.

I think you are reading to much into Collins needing Trae. He has not played many games without Trae, but when he does he is still a 20 and 10 machine.

The 6 games this year that Trae missed, he averaged 23 and 10. In 3 of those 6 games he put up 26 and 10 or better. Collins is a beast even with a 2nd or 3rd level point guard like Teague or Goodwin ( you have probably never even heard of him ).

I know Goodwin, he torched us :p I didnt mean to say Collins is bad without Trae, but that he is not a lead ball handler and his skillset will not be fully utilized next to other star. But that is my opinion. Collins is a great young player i like his game. ( just Isaac more)
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Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#66 » by Buzzard » Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:44 pm

zaymon wrote:
Buzzard wrote:
zaymon wrote:We wont trade for Collins becouse we think having a forward who is average defensively puts a ceiling on a team. His offense is nice but how much he is using his skill when he is spoting up for Trae ? Thats why there are many rumors about his fit, his skillset makes him more expensive but less useful. When you cant handle the ball or create for others or pull up for shots you are not really as valueable as your stats imply.

I think you are reading to much into Collins needing Trae. He has not played many games without Trae, but when he does he is still a 20 and 10 machine.

The 6 games this year that Trae missed, he averaged 23 and 10. In 3 of those 6 games he put up 26 and 10 or better. Collins is a beast even with a 2nd or 3rd level point guard like Teague or Goodwin ( you have probably never even heard of him ).

I know Goodwin, he torched us :p I didnt mean to say Collins is bad without Trae, but that he is not a lead ball handler and his skillset will not be fully utilized next to other star. But that is my opinion. Collins is a great young player i like his game. ( just Isaac more)

Next season Isaac needs to get somewhere respectable with his offense. 14 points a game with at least average efficiency. Otherwise your management will be facing one of those Oladipo type decisions in 2021.

In other words, it would be nice to know he is at least average on offense before you have to resign him.
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Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#67 » by Buzzard » Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:58 pm

Bakomagic wrote:
Buzzard wrote:
Bakomagic wrote:

Defense is two areas and Isaac can excel in both perimeter and rim protection, that is the difference between Isaac and those you mentioned.

I am honestly unconcerned when Atlanta runs pick and roll vs the magic and Isaac gets switched onto Trae and that goes vs any team that puts Isaac on an island with a perimeter guard. Ask Magic fans and they will tell you that they love when teams were unaware of Isaac's ability that they would assume they had a matchup advantage and ended forcing a trash shot or turning the ball over more times than not.

It is actually one of my favorite things to watch during Magic games the last few years.

You probably did not enjoy watching Trae on 10-26 when he went off to the tune of 39 and 9, .500 from three and .640 from the field. That was the only game this season Isaac and Trae were both in.

As a rookie in 2018/19, Trae averaged 19.0 and 6.0 with a .574 TS% in four games against Orlando. Isaac was in all four.

This season Isaac averaged 10.5, 6.5 rebounds on a .403 TS% in his two games against Atlanta. In four games in 2018/19, Isaac averaged 10.8 and 5.3 rebounds on a .555 TS%.

Other than the pure athletic ability and length, I do not understand the comparisons to players like Draymond, Giannis, and AD. Maybe next season he breaks out; but that is a maybe.


I did enjoy it, I love basketball and it was a great game. I also like watching Trae play in general, judging by your erroneous reference to Trae's stats I get the feeling that you think I am criticizing or don't respect his game.

Furthermore, none of what you wrote dispels my assertion that Isaac is a capable perimeter defender. I am only arguing that Isaac is more valuable and impactful as a defender than Covington, Beverly and Thabo. Maybe you misunderstood my intentions ?

I was pointing out that Trae played pretty well even with Isaac's good perimeter defense on the floor. I am not bashing Isaac. Every teams needs at least one good defender on the perimeter and another at the rim. The Hawks got their rim protector with Capela; they need one of their younger players to up the perimeter defense.

I do not think trading for Isaac would turn the Hawks around. Keeping Collins as a needed 2nd wheel and banking on the draft picks is the path they took.
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Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#68 » by zaymon » Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:01 pm

Buzzard wrote:
zaymon wrote:
Buzzard wrote:I think you are reading to much into Collins needing Trae. He has not played many games without Trae, but when he does he is still a 20 and 10 machine.

The 6 games this year that Trae missed, he averaged 23 and 10. In 3 of those 6 games he put up 26 and 10 or better. Collins is a beast even with a 2nd or 3rd level point guard like Teague or Goodwin ( you have probably never even heard of him ).

I know Goodwin, he torched us :p I didnt mean to say Collins is bad without Trae, but that he is not a lead ball handler and his skillset will not be fully utilized next to other star. But that is my opinion. Collins is a great young player i like his game. ( just Isaac more)

Next season Isaac needs to get somewhere respectable with his offense. 14 points a game with at least average efficiency. Otherwise your management will be facing one of those Oladipo type decisions in 2021.

In other words, it would be nice to know he is at least average on offense before you have to resign him.

He just needs to be league average 3 point shooter ( and there are many indicators he will be). You dont have to worry if he needs to play with a defensive center or not ( becouse he can protect the rim like a center and slide on a perimeter like a forward). You dont worry about rebounding You dont have to worry about your star ball handler touches.
Only thing you worry about is spacing. Ball handling can come from other positions while help defense and rim protection is kind of a must from your 4 and 5.
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Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#69 » by Buzzard » Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:16 pm

zaymon wrote:
Buzzard wrote:
zaymon wrote:I know Goodwin, he torched us :p I didnt mean to say Collins is bad without Trae, but that he is not a lead ball handler and his skillset will not be fully utilized next to other star. But that is my opinion. Collins is a great young player i like his game. ( just Isaac more)

Next season Isaac needs to get somewhere respectable with his offense. 14 points a game with at least average efficiency. Otherwise your management will be facing one of those Oladipo type decisions in 2021.

In other words, it would be nice to know he is at least average on offense before you have to resign him.

He just needs to be league average 3 point shooter ( and there are many indicators he will be). You dont have to worry if he needs to play with a defensive center or not ( becouse he can protect the rim like a center and slide on a perimeter like a forward). You dont worry about rebounding You dont have to worry about your star ball handler touches.
Only thing you worry about is spacing. Ball handling can come from other positions while help defense and rim protection is kind of a must from your 4 and 5.

When you take someone 6th, I think you are hoping for more than 12 points a game with good to great defense. That is why I said need to see 14 points and at least average efficiency.

The Magic have some holes and they start with offense/efficiency. If Isaac can pick up that part of his game, even a little, it would help.
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Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#70 » by tiderulz » Sat Aug 1, 2020 1:42 am

Buzzard wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
Buzzard wrote:I think it definitely slants in favor of Orlando. Atlanta would be taking all the risk on Isaac breaking out. If he can't, the Hawks take a huge step backwards to the bottom of offensive efficiency.

Isaac would be much better suited on a team that had a good to great offense in place. Without Collins, that is not Atlanta by any stretch of the imagination.

The Mavericks, Rockets, Clippers, Lakers, Celtics, Bucks, Heat, Nuggets, and Traiblazers are all in the top 10 in offensive rating. If I were looking to move Isaac, those are the teams I would be calling. If Hunter, Huerter, or Reddish break out, the Hawks offense will improve substantially. But that is probably one to two years away.

It is not that I don't like Isaac, I just value Collins offensive impact a lot more than Isaac's defensive one. Especially with the way the Hawks are currently built.

forest for the trees again. My original comments had nothing to do with the trade, but the discussion of perceived upside and your comments on bias and "poor quality in fans to apply reasoning"

It is badly applied reasoning in my opinion to assume one healthy 22 year old has less upside than another healthy 22 year old. Just rose colored glasses for their player ( fanatic talk ) with no basis other than fandom as far as I am concerned.

In three seasons Isaac has not had one monthly split in which he averaged 16 points or better a game. Where is this glimpse of perceived upside at? Andrew Wiggins had multiple better monthly shooting splits than Isaac in his first three seasons.

Let that soak in.

its his defensive upside and taking over a game that has been seen, not his scoring. As I said before, comparing Collins and Isaac, it depends on the role you want or need. Collins can score and rebound, score in ways Isaac cannot. Isaac has shown he can affect and take over a game defensively, but his offense will likely always be average at best unless he takes some step we havent even seen glimpses of yet
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Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#71 » by Skin » Sat Aug 1, 2020 2:14 am

No surprise seeing Isaac winning in a landslide. Higher upside due to versatility to play 3, 4 and 5 and the thing teams need most from their big men is defense.

Collins is ATL's version of Vucevic. I can understand where Hawks fans are coming from though. Tons of Magic fans love Vucevic when myself and the rest of the league don't.
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Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#72 » by Ball4life32 » Sat Aug 1, 2020 3:01 am

Skin wrote:No surprise seeing Isaac winning in a landslide. Higher upside due to versatility to play 3, 4 and 5 and the thing teams need most from their big men is defense.

Collins is ATL's version of Vucevic. I can understand where Hawks fans are coming from though. Tons of Magic fans love Vucevic when myself and the rest of the league don't.

Collins & Vucevic really aren’t similar though.

The Hawks record was 6-24 (worst record in nba) when Collins was eligible to come back from his 25 game suspension. I said earlier even if he dominated(& he did average 24p/10.4r on 71 TS% in his last 27 games with solid defense + hawks finished 12-15 w/ Trae/Reddish both missing games) it wouldn’t matter because of the Hawks horrible record..a lot think he’s putting up empty stats + narrative of horrible defense. I think he’s underrated but we’ll just have to see going forward.

Also yes no doubt Isaac can guard 3’s but I wouldn’t want him at the 3 offensively & like him much more at the 4.
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Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#73 » by Buzzard » Sat Aug 1, 2020 3:30 am

Skin wrote:No surprise seeing Isaac winning in a landslide. Higher upside due to versatility to play 3, 4 and 5 and the thing teams need most from their big men is defense.

Collins is ATL's version of Vucevic. I can understand where Hawks fans are coming from though. Tons of Magic fans love Vucevic when myself and the rest of the league don't.

Other than they are both big men, I do not get this comparison at all. Vucevic is not in Collins class when it comes to efficiency.

Collins Career TS% is .634
Vucevic's Career TS% is .536

.100 is a substantial difference. Vucevic's inability to be efficient even though he is 6'11" and shoots threes is one of Orlando's major flaws on offense. At least one player, who is a primary scorer, on that team needs to get in the .575 to .600 range. Until that happens, the offense is always going to struggle.

The Hawks were dead last at 30th in offensive rating with Collins out of the lineup for 25 games. They shot up to 15th in offensive rating for the 37 games after he came back. All it took was adding Collins excellent efficiency back into the lineup with Trae's excellent efficiency.

It was like magic ( pun intended ) and they went from dead last to middle of the pack.
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Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#74 » by Buzzard » Sat Aug 1, 2020 3:44 am

tiderulz wrote:
Buzzard wrote:
tiderulz wrote:forest for the trees again. My original comments had nothing to do with the trade, but the discussion of perceived upside and your comments on bias and "poor quality in fans to apply reasoning"

It is badly applied reasoning in my opinion to assume one healthy 22 year old has less upside than another healthy 22 year old. Just rose colored glasses for their player ( fanatic talk ) with no basis other than fandom as far as I am concerned.

In three seasons Isaac has not had one monthly split in which he averaged 16 points or better a game. Where is this glimpse of perceived upside at? Andrew Wiggins had multiple better monthly shooting splits than Isaac in his first three seasons.

Let that soak in.

its his defensive upside and taking over a game that has been seen, not his scoring. As I said before, comparing Collins and Isaac, it depends on the role you want or need. Collins can score and rebound, score in ways Isaac cannot. Isaac has shown he can affect and take over a game defensively, but his offense will likely always be average at best unless he takes some step we havent even seen glimpses of yet

With so much emphasis on scoring, efficiency, points per possession, and pace, any team with only two great scorers cannot afford to trade one for a defensive player. The better plan is to coach team defense and add some role players. Points are just to valuable when you are facing teams like the Mavericks, Bucks, Clippers, Lakers, Rockets, Celtics, Trailblazers, Heat, Nuggets, and Jazz. Everyone of those teams has a 112.0 offensive rating or higher.

Playing good defense is still valuable; but more nights than not, you are still not shutting down great scorers. And that point is not about eras either. Great scorers figure out ways to still get theirs.
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Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#75 » by Skin » Sat Aug 1, 2020 4:18 am

Buzzard wrote:
Skin wrote:No surprise seeing Isaac winning in a landslide. Higher upside due to versatility to play 3, 4 and 5 and the thing teams need most from their big men is defense.

Collins is ATL's version of Vucevic. I can understand where Hawks fans are coming from though. Tons of Magic fans love Vucevic when myself and the rest of the league don't.

Other than they are both big men, I do not get this comparison at all. Vucevic is not in Collins class when it comes to efficiency.

Collins Career TS% is .634
Vucevic's Career TS% is .536

.100 is a substantial difference. Vucevic's inability to be efficient even though he is 6'11" and shoots threes is one of Orlando's major flaws on offense. At least one player, who is a primary scorer, on that team needs to get in the .575 to .600 range. Until that happens, the offense is always going to struggle.

The Hawks were dead last at 30th in offensive rating with Collins out of the lineup for 25 games. They shot up to 15th in offensive rating for the 37 games after he came back. All it took was adding Collins excellent efficiency back into the lineup with Trae's excellent efficiency.

It was like magic ( pun intended ) and they went from dead last to middle of the pack.

You can quote numbers all you want. I'm not saying they are exactly the same. No 2 players are. Similar shade is all. Good big man on a bad team... more offense than defense oriented... Improperly valued players who will make a lot of money fooling dumb GMs. I hear people here (was it you?) saying Collins is a max guy and that just sounds cringy.
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Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#76 » by CP War Hawks » Sat Aug 1, 2020 4:42 am

Skin wrote:No surprise seeing Isaac winning in a landslide. Higher upside due to versatility to play 3, 4 and 5 and the thing teams need most from their big men is defense.

Collins is ATL's version of Vucevic. I can understand where Hawks fans are coming from though. Tons of Magic fans love Vucevic when myself and the rest of the league don't.


The poll means very little when a fanbase is 10 to 1 vs. another fanbase, let's be truthful. Basically what Isaac is on defense is what Collins is to offense and vice versa.

I'd personally love to have JI man the 5 spot for the Hawks, but Collins honestly has more value being a near elite offensive 4 while providing sufficient enough interior defense. If Isaac can take the next step on offense he wins the one on one battle however.
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Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#77 » by Buzzard » Sat Aug 1, 2020 5:51 am

Skin wrote:
Buzzard wrote:
Skin wrote:No surprise seeing Isaac winning in a landslide. Higher upside due to versatility to play 3, 4 and 5 and the thing teams need most from their big men is defense.

Collins is ATL's version of Vucevic. I can understand where Hawks fans are coming from though. Tons of Magic fans love Vucevic when myself and the rest of the league don't.

Other than they are both big men, I do not get this comparison at all. Vucevic is not in Collins class when it comes to efficiency.

Collins Career TS% is .634
Vucevic's Career TS% is .536

.100 is a substantial difference. Vucevic's inability to be efficient even though he is 6'11" and shoots threes is one of Orlando's major flaws on offense. At least one player, who is a primary scorer, on that team needs to get in the .575 to .600 range. Until that happens, the offense is always going to struggle.

The Hawks were dead last at 30th in offensive rating with Collins out of the lineup for 25 games. They shot up to 15th in offensive rating for the 37 games after he came back. All it took was adding Collins excellent efficiency back into the lineup with Trae's excellent efficiency.

It was like magic ( pun intended ) and they went from dead last to middle of the pack.

You can quote numbers all you want. I'm not saying they are exactly the same. No 2 players are. Similar shade is all. Good big man on a bad team... more offense than defense oriented... Improperly valued players who will make a lot of money fooling dumb GMs. I hear people here (was it you?) saying Collins is a max guy and that just sounds cringy.

I prefer to point to win/loss record; but pointing out the Magic were 1 game over .500 without Isaac and 6 games under .500 with Isaac for a similar amount of games seems to be an irrelevant point. What matters more to quite a few posters is his 22 year old upside and his on/off court stats.

Without Isaac the Magic were 17 and 16, 33 Games

With Isaac the Magic were 13 and 19, 32 Games

I got no argument against betting on young players and their upside. I just think ignoring some very basic facts when comparing both players is ridiculous. Bet on Isaac all you want, but that does not change the facts he has not been close to the most dependable or trend worthy player in his class by any stretch.

Next season will tell a clearer tale. Collins in his 4th, Isaac in his 4th. It will be interesting to see who keeps helping their team the most while also improving their own games.
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Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#78 » by Skin » Sat Aug 1, 2020 6:40 am

Buzzard wrote:
Skin wrote:
Buzzard wrote:Other than they are both big men, I do not get this comparison at all. Vucevic is not in Collins class when it comes to efficiency.

Collins Career TS% is .634
Vucevic's Career TS% is .536

.100 is a substantial difference. Vucevic's inability to be efficient even though he is 6'11" and shoots threes is one of Orlando's major flaws on offense. At least one player, who is a primary scorer, on that team needs to get in the .575 to .600 range. Until that happens, the offense is always going to struggle.

The Hawks were dead last at 30th in offensive rating with Collins out of the lineup for 25 games. They shot up to 15th in offensive rating for the 37 games after he came back. All it took was adding Collins excellent efficiency back into the lineup with Trae's excellent efficiency.

It was like magic ( pun intended ) and they went from dead last to middle of the pack.

You can quote numbers all you want. I'm not saying they are exactly the same. No 2 players are. Similar shade is all. Good big man on a bad team... more offense than defense oriented... Improperly valued players who will make a lot of money fooling dumb GMs. I hear people here (was it you?) saying Collins is a max guy and that just sounds cringy.

I prefer to point to win/loss record; but pointing out the Magic were 1 game over .500 without Isaac and 6 games under .500 with Isaac for a similar amount of games seems to be an irrelevant point. What matters more to quite a few posters is his 22 year old upside and his on/off court stats.

Without Isaac the Magic were 17 and 16, 33 Games

With Isaac the Magic were 13 and 19, 32 Games

I got no argument against betting on young players and their upside. I just think ignoring some very basic facts when comparing both players is ridiculous. Bet on Isaac all you want, but that does not change the facts he has not been close to the most dependable or trend worthy player in his class by any stretch.

Next season will tell a clearer tale. Collins in his 4th, Isaac in his 4th. It will be interesting to see who keeps helping their team the most while also improving their own games.

The Magic are not built around Isaac being an integral piece yet. He's certainly a big, if not the biggest part of their future, but he's not there yet. So looking at the win loss column is an exercise in poor judgement.

The Hawks decided to blow things up and start a youth movement. Collins is a big part of that. So your W/L record is relative, but it is not a proper reflection of individual value. I applaud the Hawks for the way they are doing it. I think that's the way to go. The Magic are just frustrating to me. They are the 5th highest in the league in terms of player salary. They refuse to bottom out and the minutes that they give to young players is heavily conservative. There literally has to be no other option in order for young guys to play early on and they don't prefer that if they have a choice.

Stats are like a bikini. They show some, but not all. :wink:
Fultz, _____, Okeke, Isaac, Bamba. LET'S GO!
SmartWentCrazy
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Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#79 » by SmartWentCrazy » Sat Aug 1, 2020 12:32 pm

Buzzard wrote:
Skin wrote:No surprise seeing Isaac winning in a landslide. Higher upside due to versatility to play 3, 4 and 5 and the thing teams need most from their big men is defense.

Collins is ATL's version of Vucevic. I can understand where Hawks fans are coming from though. Tons of Magic fans love Vucevic when myself and the rest of the league don't.

Other than they are both big men, I do not get this comparison at all. Vucevic is not in Collins class when it comes to efficiency.

Collins Career TS% is .634
Vucevic's Career TS% is .536

.100 is a substantial difference. Vucevic's inability to be efficient even though he is 6'11" and shoots threes is one of Orlando's major flaws on offense. At least one player, who is a primary scorer, on that team needs to get in the .575 to .600 range. Until that happens, the offense is always going to struggle.

The Hawks were dead last at 30th in offensive rating with Collins out of the lineup for 25 games. They shot up to 15th in offensive rating for the 37 games after he came back. All it took was adding Collins excellent efficiency back into the lineup with Trae's excellent efficiency.

It was like magic ( pun intended ) and they went from dead last to middle of the pack.


Magic with Vuc on: 109.8 ORTG, 109.7 DRTG
Magic with Vuc off: 102.4 ORTG, 105.2 DRTG

Without Vuc on the floor, the Magic would be the worst offensive team in the league [GSW finished last with a 104.4 ORTG for context]. With Vuc on the floor, that jumps to 17th.

https://stats.nba.com/vs/advanced/#!?TeamID=1610612753&VsPlayerID=202696

Collins on: 107 ORTG, 112.1 DRTG
Collins off: 105.5 ORTG, 114.3 DRTG

https://stats.nba.com/vs/advanced/#!?TeamID=1610612737&VsPlayerID=1628381

The evidence isnt supporting the argument youre trying to make— Vuc carries a worse collection of offensive players to a higher level than Collins does.
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Re: Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando 

Post#80 » by Buzzard » Sat Aug 1, 2020 1:14 pm

SmartWentCrazy wrote:
Buzzard wrote:
Skin wrote:No surprise seeing Isaac winning in a landslide. Higher upside due to versatility to play 3, 4 and 5 and the thing teams need most from their big men is defense.

Collins is ATL's version of Vucevic. I can understand where Hawks fans are coming from though. Tons of Magic fans love Vucevic when myself and the rest of the league don't.

Other than they are both big men, I do not get this comparison at all. Vucevic is not in Collins class when it comes to efficiency.

Collins Career TS% is .634
Vucevic's Career TS% is .536

.100 is a substantial difference. Vucevic's inability to be efficient even though he is 6'11" and shoots threes is one of Orlando's major flaws on offense. At least one player, who is a primary scorer, on that team needs to get in the .575 to .600 range. Until that happens, the offense is always going to struggle.

The Hawks were dead last at 30th in offensive rating with Collins out of the lineup for 25 games. They shot up to 15th in offensive rating for the 37 games after he came back. All it took was adding Collins excellent efficiency back into the lineup with Trae's excellent efficiency.

It was like magic ( pun intended ) and they went from dead last to middle of the pack.


Collins on: 107 ORTG, 112.1 DRTG
Collins off: 105.5 ORTG, 114.3 DRTG

https://stats.nba.com/vs/advanced/#!?TeamID=1610612737&VsPlayerID=1628381

The evidence isnt supporting the argument youre trying to make— Vuc carries a worse collection of offensive players to a higher level than Collins does.

I am not buying into your goal post move. Back on topic: Collins vs Isaac. Who has the most value? The ultimate evidence is the win/loss record unless you think that is not very important. That would be a very interesting take on your part if you do.

The Hawks with Collins back in the lineup from Jan. 1 to Apr. 30th had a offensive rating of 111.1. The Hawks prior to Jan.1st, when Collins missed 25 of those 30 games, had a offensive rating of 103.0. I do not see how anyone can argue against that impact.

The Hawks without John Collins during his 25 game suspension had a winning percentage of 16%. The Hawks with John Collins had a winning percentage of 38%. I do not see how anyone can argue against that impact.

Collins had pretty much the opposite effect on win/loss than Isaac had. But that's ok. I am sure there will come a time when most points scored and games won will not determine a winner or champion. At the end of the season, the team with the greatest outcome of a select group of advanced stats will be declared the NBA Champion. Sounds exciting ( sarcasm ).

I am not going to keep beating a dead horse. I will never understand the concept that some pin point singular stat is more important than winning games; but that goes back to my take on fan bias. What ever trival stat we can use to say so and so is better we will use. Outcome be damned.

Isaac is a good looking prospect but he has a long ways to go to catch up with the best players in his draft class. That is my opinion on him. Collins belongs in a starting lineup and is a 2nd or 3rd wheel all day long on a good to great team. That is my opinion on him.

I will take my 2nd or 3rd wheel in hand and try to draft another prospect at #4.

Orlando should keep developing Isaac and hope things work out.
"Offense sells tickets, defense wins games, rebounding wins championships." Pat Summitt

"Offense sells tickets, defense wins championships." Paul Bear Bryant

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