Free Zach...CHI/ORL

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Free Zach...CHI/ORL 

Post#1 » by Skybox » Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:34 pm

If Zach needs a change of scenery and CHI new FO agrees...NY would be a mess-Starbury pt II (25ppg with 12 wins and no development).

ORL would welcome Zach, celebrate his strengths, cover his weaknesses, and surround him with complementary players in return for his conscience-free but not totally inefficient 25 ppg. CHI would be sorry to see him do so well but CHI would be gaining equivalent star power in AG as they will both be in better situations.
https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7306036

CHI sends Lavine, Thad Young, Ryan Arcidiacono
ORL sends Aaron Gordon, Evan Fournier (opt-in or sign and trade)

CHI likes it...AG can play SF because Lauri is hanging on the perimeter shooting 3's. AG can defend 1-4 handily, so it's just a matter of his offensive fit. Fournier will likely opt-in, so CHI can make the deal with the idea of re-signing him or getting cap space when he and OPJ expire together. I think Evan brings a nice dimension because he shoots 40% from 3, scores 18ppg inside and out, favors the pick and roll which CHI bigs are equipped for, and he's pretty big for SG.

ORL likes it...Zach gets to go off as designated Alpha scorer, drawing defenders out of the paint, making things easy for Fultz and Vuc in the paint. Isaac and Okeke man the forward spots and cover for him defensively. Eventually, Bamba makes it even easier for him to play matador defense as players who get by him will be met with ORL's young octopi at the rim. Perhaps, enticed by the promise of highlight reel breakaway dunks, Zach embraces perimeter D. Thad is a nice vet presence but basically filler and money off the cap for CHI. Arcidiacono has a legit shot to replace DJ Augustin at backup PG as DJ likely goes ring-chasing as he nears retirement.
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Re: Free Zach...CHI/ORL 

Post#2 » by Bentley1225 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:57 pm

Something involving:
-Lavine to Orlando
-Gordon to Phoenix
-Oubre to Chicago

.......might be interesting
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Re: Free Zach...CHI/ORL 

Post#3 » by letsgobulls23 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:01 pm

Bentley1225 wrote:Something involving:
-Lavine to Orlando
-Gordon to Phoenix
-Oubre to Chicago

.......might be interesting

I like that, but only if Oubre is interested in resigning in CHI
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Re: Free Zach...CHI/ORL 

Post#4 » by pipfan » Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:50 pm

I would do something like
Lavine to Orl
Gordon to Suns
#10/#15 to Bulls

If the Bulls wanted to reset their team. I think Lavine is worth a #15 pick more than Gordon, and that Gordon is worth the #10 for the Suns
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Re: Free Zach...CHI/ORL 

Post#5 » by Texas Chuck » Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:57 pm

Skybox wrote:
CHI sends Lavine, Thad Young, Ryan Arcidiacono
ORL sends Aaron Gordon, Evan Fournier (opt-in or sign and trade)



So in terms of value I have Fournier>Lavine and Gordon >Young/Arcidiacono. I get I am lower on Lavine than most so you could change the first > to an = I guess. Feels about right value wise since Chicago fans really place extra value on Lavine being their best player so you'd have to overpay.

Chicago immediately gets better in an addition by subtraction just removing Lavine from the rotation. Add in a highly competent SG to replace him in Fournier and a guy in Gordon to pair with Porter on the frontline. Seems like a no-brainer for the Bulls.

Magic are gambling on Clifford still being able to piece together a great defense with Lavine playing big minutes. If true then Lavine's ability to generate his own offense at a higher volume than Fournier does have some merit on a hard-scoring team. Probably worth the gamble. Young competes with Aminu for the backup PF minutes.

I like the deal.
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Re: Free Zach...CHI/ORL 

Post#6 » by giberish » Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:12 pm

This does leave Orlando with a completely ridiculous PF rotation. I feel that Young has to be moved for a Gordon to Chicago deal to make sense but that he just doesn't make sense going back to Orlando.

Perhaps adding in a Young for Prince side deal with BK helps. Orlando takes on a small extra salary for a better position fit and younger player.
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Re: Free Zach...CHI/ORL 

Post#7 » by Skin » Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:29 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
Skybox wrote:
CHI sends Lavine, Thad Young, Ryan Arcidiacono
ORL sends Aaron Gordon, Evan Fournier (opt-in or sign and trade)



So in terms of value I have Fournier>Lavine and Gordon >Young/Arcidiacono. I get I am lower on Lavine than most so you could change the first > to an = I guess. Feels about right value wise since Chicago fans really place extra value on Lavine being their best player so you'd have to overpay.

Chicago immediately gets better in an addition by subtraction just removing Lavine from the rotation. Add in a highly competent SG to replace him in Fournier and a guy in Gordon to pair with Porter on the frontline. Seems like a no-brainer for the Bulls.

Magic are gambling on Clifford still being able to piece together a great defense with Lavine playing big minutes. If true then Lavine's ability to generate his own offense at a higher volume than Fournier does have some merit on a hard-scoring team. Probably worth the gamble. Young competes with Aminu for the backup PF minutes.

I like the deal.

What about Fournier + 16 for Lavine?
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Re: Free Zach...CHI/ORL 

Post#8 » by Magic_Johnny12 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:31 pm

I dont know man, as Chuck alluded to earlier in regards to value I genuinely see Fournier as the better asset in comparison to Lavine and we have zero need for Young.

If we were including Gordon I think this would make a lot more sense.

Evan Fournier
Aaron Gordon
#16

for

Zach Lavine
Thomas Satoransky
Cristiano Felicio
#7

This way Orlando fills their backup PG needs with Sato incoming and uses #7 to nab Vassell.
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Re: Free Zach...CHI/ORL 

Post#9 » by Skybox » Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:51 pm

Skin wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:
Skybox wrote:
CHI sends Lavine, Thad Young, Ryan Arcidiacono
ORL sends Aaron Gordon, Evan Fournier (opt-in or sign and trade)



So in terms of value I have Fournier>Lavine and Gordon >Young/Arcidiacono. I get I am lower on Lavine than most so you could change the first > to an = I guess. Feels about right value wise since Chicago fans really place extra value on Lavine being their best player so you'd have to overpay.

Chicago immediately gets better in an addition by subtraction just removing Lavine from the rotation. Add in a highly competent SG to replace him in Fournier and a guy in Gordon to pair with Porter on the frontline. Seems like a no-brainer for the Bulls.

Magic are gambling on Clifford still being able to piece together a great defense with Lavine playing big minutes. If true then Lavine's ability to generate his own offense at a higher volume than Fournier does have some merit on a hard-scoring team. Probably worth the gamble. Young competes with Aminu for the backup PF minutes.

I like the deal.

What about Fournier + 16 for Lavine?


I'd prefer that. Just didn't know how CHI would receive it. I'm warming to the idea that AG could really flourish if Fultz was just given the keys...who wouldn't want to see AG and Zach flying in from the wings trying to outdo each other's jams? AG is just assumed to be the expendable guy with Isaac, but I'd still like to pair them if we found a SG that could light it up.
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Re: Free Zach...CHI/ORL 

Post#10 » by Skybox » Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:52 pm

Magic_Johnny12 wrote:I dont know man, as Chuck alluded to earlier in regards to value I genuinely see Fournier as the better asset in comparison to Lavine and we have zero need for Young.

If we were including Gordon I think this would make a lot more sense.

Evan Fournier
Aaron Gordon
#16

for

Zach Lavine
Thomas Satoransky
Cristiano Felicio
#7

This way Orlando fills their backup PG needs with Sato incoming and uses #7 to nab Vassell.


Young is just a body to me. I love Sato, but I think you're being unrealistic (or, hopefully, I am)
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Re: Free Zach...CHI/ORL 

Post#11 » by Chicago-Bull-E » Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:19 pm

Magic_Johnny12 wrote:I dont know man, as Chuck alluded to earlier in regards to value I genuinely see Fournier as the better asset in comparison to Lavine and we have zero need for Young.

If we were including Gordon I think this would make a lot more sense.

Evan Fournier
Aaron Gordon
#16

for

Zach Lavine
Thomas Satoransky
Cristiano Felicio
#7

This way Orlando fills their backup PG needs with Sato incoming and uses #7 to nab Vassell.


Much closer without the 7 pick.

You and a minority here may have Fournier as higher value (which is interesting that we are assuming he is opting into his deal, which is less than Lavine’s? I guess he should opt out which makes a deal impossible and get that 20+ million a year that he’s worth) , but the NBA certainly doesn’t.
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Re: Free Zach...CHI/ORL 

Post#12 » by HotelVitale » Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:54 pm

Chicago-Bull-E wrote:
Magic_Johnny12 wrote:I dont know man, as Chuck alluded to earlier in regards to value I genuinely see Fournier as the better asset in comparison to Lavine and we have zero need for Young. If we were including Gordon I think this would make a lot more sense.
Evan Fournier
Aaron Gordon
#16
for
Zach Lavine
Thomas Satoransky
Cristiano Felicio
#7
This way Orlando fills their backup PG needs with Sato incoming and uses #7 to nab Vassell.
Much closer without the 7 pick.
You and a minority here may have Fournier as higher value (which is interesting that we are assuming he is opting into his deal, which is less than Lavine’s? I guess he should opt out which makes a deal impossible and get that 20+ million a year that he’s worth) , but the NBA certainly doesn’t.

I don't think it's bizarre or a minority opinion to be pretty cool on Lavine's trade value. Lavine volume scores well but he's in his absolute best case spot now in CHI: they don't have a decent PG or an effective offensive system, so they can really use someone like Lavine to use up a lot of possessions from the perimeter. Most decent teams, though, don't desperately need someone to use 1/3 of their possessions by playing iso ball and scoring at average efficiency--they already have options or a system that can generally deliver something like that, and bringing in Lavine would compromise other things for many teams. Not only do they lose whatever assets they give up, they also don't get to play a lower volume defender or a pure floor spacer, they don't get to use his salary slot for something else, etc. There just aren't that many good teams that want to spend nice assets, a ton of money, and big minutes on a volume iso scorer who's not very good at anything else, hence Lavine's trade value is lower than his value to the Bulls by quite a bit.

All trade value is relative, and I think the Magic are a good example of a team that isn't terrible and might be able to use Lavine more than other decent teams can. The problem is that Lavine isn't really an answer for the Magic or a way for them to get beyond treadmill-y territory. Hard to see how he can fetch back anything meaningful in a trade, and my guess is that most CHI fans will keep asking for more than a late 1st and an expiring.
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Re: Free Zach...CHI/ORL 

Post#13 » by Chicago-Bull-E » Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:26 pm

HotelVitale wrote:
Chicago-Bull-E wrote:
Magic_Johnny12 wrote:I dont know man, as Chuck alluded to earlier in regards to value I genuinely see Fournier as the better asset in comparison to Lavine and we have zero need for Young. If we were including Gordon I think this would make a lot more sense.
Evan Fournier
Aaron Gordon
#16
for
Zach Lavine
Thomas Satoransky
Cristiano Felicio
#7
This way Orlando fills their backup PG needs with Sato incoming and uses #7 to nab Vassell.
Much closer without the 7 pick.
You and a minority here may have Fournier as higher value (which is interesting that we are assuming he is opting into his deal, which is less than Lavine’s? I guess he should opt out which makes a deal impossible and get that 20+ million a year that he’s worth) , but the NBA certainly doesn’t.

I don't think it's bizarre or a minority opinion to be pretty cool on Lavine's trade value. Lavine volume scores well but he's in his absolute best case spot now in CHI: they don't have a decent PG or an effective offensive system, so they can really use someone like Lavine to use up a lot of possessions from the perimeter. Most decent teams, though, don't desperately need someone to use 1/3 of their possessions by playing iso ball and scoring at average efficiency--they already have options or a system that can generally deliver something like that, and bringing in Lavine would compromise other things for many teams. Not only do they lose whatever assets they give up, they also don't get to play a lower volume defender or a pure floor spacer, they don't get to use his salary slot for something else, etc. There just aren't that many good teams that want to spend nice assets, a ton of money, and big minutes on a volume iso scorer who's not very good at anything else, hence Lavine's trade value is lower than his value to the Bulls by quite a bit.

All trade value is relative, and I think the Magic are a good example of a team that isn't terrible and might be able to use Lavine more than other decent teams can. The problem is that Lavine isn't really an answer for the Magic or a way for them to get beyond treadmill-y territory. Hard to see how he can fetch back anything meaningful in a trade, and my guess is that most CHI fans will keep asking for more than a late 1st and an expiring.


"Cool" is a pretty vague term, but I feel pretty good about Lavine having more value than Fournier.

I think most teams would love a guy that scores 25 ppg on 57% TS, and has been a team player his time on the Bulls. He isn't paid as a 1st option, and has never had a 1st option on the Bulls, so it seems bizarre to me to hold that against him, which seems to be the biggest knock. Ironically, when he was on Minnesota, he was 3rd in FGA behind Wiggins and Towns, despite being incredibly more efficient than Wiggins, and above average.

Seems strange to note that Lavine isn't very good at anything else in a discussion with Fournier, when he collects more rebounds, assists, steals, blocks, and costs 2 million more per year, while being 3 years younger.
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Re: Free Zach...CHI/ORL 

Post#14 » by Showtime23 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:36 pm

I think Gordon + 16/Bamba is fair deal.
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Re: Free Zach...CHI/ORL 

Post#15 » by Skybox » Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:04 pm

Showtime23 wrote:I think Gordon + 16/Bamba is fair deal.


I don't think you get Bamba as a throw in yet
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Re: Free Zach...CHI/ORL 

Post#16 » by NuggetsWY » Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:29 pm

I do not care for Lavine, so in my opinion, Chicago wins this deal. I like Gordon's fit in Chicago and I'm a Fournier fan and think he works on any team. I'm not saying Fournier is a star, but he's a nice role player that can start or be 6th man. Gordon's not a good fit in Orlando IMO but I like him better in Chicago.

Why would Orlando make this deal? I'm not sure. They are picking up three 3-year contracts for one shorter contract and one that will probably be longer. If they want to consider this a three-year deal while they still build, okay. On the other hand, Lavine might fit better alongside Isaac - but I'm not sold on this deal for Orlando.

If Chicago adds a future 1st ... maybe Orlando likes it, but I doubt Chicago would be interested in that.
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Re: Free Zach...CHI/ORL 

Post#17 » by hege53190 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:48 pm

I like the Zach Lavine to Orlando trade idea. I think it makes sense but I think it would be better to pair him with Fornier and not replace fornier with him.

Zach Lavine for Al Farouq Aminu, Bamba, 15

Why for the Bulls they eat a little salary but get future pieces

Why for the Magic. They have a very competitive starting 5. They need a play maker and they add one.
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Re: Free Zach...CHI/ORL 

Post#18 » by giberish » Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:43 am

hege53190 wrote:I like the Zach Lavine to Orlando trade idea. I think it makes sense but I think it would be better to pair him with Fornier and not replace fornier with him.

Zach Lavine for Al Farouq Aminu, Bamba, 15

Why for the Bulls they eat a little salary but get future pieces

Why for the Magic. They have a very competitive starting 5. They need a play maker and they add one.


Pretty horrible fit for Chicago. I don't see them valuing Bamba as more of a long-term starting C then WCJ, so he's not bringing in any value. Aminu is also obviously not needed. So it's just #15 + bad/unneeded money for LaVine.

At least put Ross in. Something of a Ross + small salary filler + incentive for LaVine works better if Orlando is really looking to pair LaVine and Fournier and Chicago is willing to move LaVine at moderate value.
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Re: Free Zach...CHI/ORL 

Post#19 » by Showtime23 » Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:41 am

Skybox wrote:
Showtime23 wrote:I think Gordon + 16/Bamba is fair deal.


I don't think you get Bamba as a throw in yet


Thats why I used slash not comma. I believe Lavine is more valuable than Gordon but just short of Bamba and Gordon.
I wouldnt mind Gordon + 16 but would prefer Gordon + Bamba for Lavine +Gafford.
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Re: Free Zach...CHI/ORL 

Post#20 » by hege53190 » Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:38 am

giberish wrote:
hege53190 wrote:I like the Zach Lavine to Orlando trade idea. I think it makes sense but I think it would be better to pair him with Fornier and not replace fornier with him.

Zach Lavine for Al Farouq Aminu, Bamba, 15

Why for the Bulls they eat a little salary but get future pieces

Why for the Magic. They have a very competitive starting 5. They need a play maker and they add one.


Pretty horrible fit for Chicago. I don't see them valuing Bamba as more of a long-term starting C then WCJ, so he's not bringing in any value. Aminu is also obviously not needed. So it's just #15 + bad/unneeded money for LaVine.

At least put Ross in. Something of a Ross + small salary filler + incentive for LaVine works better if Orlando is really looking to pair LaVine and Fournier and Chicago is willing to move LaVine at moderate value.


I am big on Bigs that can shoot the 3 and defend/block shots. I am very high on Bamba shooting 36% from 3 and 13.8p/12.4r/3.5b per 36 min. The magic win games by 3 points per 100 possessions while he is in the game and lose by 2 points per 100 possessions while he is out of the game. Mo Bamba is 7'0" with a 7'10" wing span and is the prototypical center for the future on the NBA. I see Bamba as getting the short end of the stick in Orlando because he is stupidly buried behind Vucevic, khem birch and Gordon. Plus Jonathan Isaac.

On the other hand Wendal Carter Jr. is 6'9", doesn't block shots and doesn't shoot 3s. Just because you trade for somebody that plays the same position doesn't mean they are nothing in a trade. The fact you want to build a package around Terrence Ross who will be 30 by next playoffs on a rebuilding team instead of Mo Bamba is really weird.

I also like this draft more than most. Especially in the mid first round. Maybe Orlando tacks on their 2021 protected pick or something. Like top 10 protected indefinitely.
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