Cleveland - Minnesota - Philadelphia - Charlotte

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Re: Cleveland - Minnesota - Philadelphia - Charlotte 

Post#21 » by Revenged25 » Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:06 pm

shrink wrote:
tidho wrote:there's no logical reason for CLE to salary dump Kevin Love.

I’m not sure why you would use the word, “logical.”

Isn’t one reason to not write checks to a guy that isn’t worth his contract?


Except he is worth his contract to Cleveland. He's a fan favorite, provides balance to the offense and helps improve the young guards the Cavs have, and he's the best PF on the roster, which regardless of what you think of his contract isn't surprising because Love is still a very productive player who would be hard for almost any team to replace what he would bring.
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Re: Cleveland - Minnesota - Philadelphia - Charlotte 

Post#22 » by shrink » Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:10 pm

Godaddycurse wrote:
Domejandro wrote:
Godaddycurse wrote:
I think it can be done because minny only has rookie scale contracts outside of these big 3s for next 2 years on their roster so they wont be in the tax like philly.

$33,517,241 $36,000,000 $38,482,759 $40,965,517
$28,649,250 $30,013,500 $31,377,750
$29,430,000 $31,610,000 $33,790,000 $35,970,000

That is unsustainable, especially for a roster of Karl-Anthony Towns, Tobias Harris, and D'Angelo Russell.


KAT 29.4M
Russell 28.6
Harris 33.5
Culver 6.1
Layman 3.7
Okogie 2.6
Evans 2
Spellman 2
Nowell 1.5
Reid 1.5
McLaughlin 1.5
1st rd pk 5.5-7.6

that's about 120M leaving the wolves with MLE to use as well or just resign Gomez. I think in a scenario where Wolves keep their pick, harris is one of the better option to fill a hole/improve the team without paying the tax. Now if they include their 2020 1st then they can likely get other/more cost efficient options. I don't think they will have any cap flexibility after this year anyway so might as well spend to the tax threshold.

First, kudos for talking about Tobias Harris fitting with the Wolves. I hadn’t seen it suggested before, and Rosas is probably looking to upgrade the PF.

In the end though, I agree with Domejandro that Harris is just too expensive. I think this leaves them in a hole like the Wizards were in. With three max deal players who, collectively, just aren’t good enough. They would be unlikely to draw ring-chasing vets in free agency, so I agree they’d have to fill the rest of the roster with cheap young players. These three, and cheap young players, is probably not truly contending.

To keep the financial flexibility, I considered following the talent upgrade model we saw in the Wiggins trade ... Russell plus asset to get Harris. However, with KAT’s attachment to Russell and Rosas’ credibility on the line to future players, I think Russell has more value right now to MIN than other teams, and can’t be traded.

Finally, I agree with your assessment that the Wolves will offer Malik Beasley an offer of a couple mil more than the MLE, but in a Covid landscape, they can certainly try to play hardball. I think though that next year’s free agent offers are nearly all going to be good deals, so I wouldn’t be happy including the #16 to take on Harris’ deal.

I like the concept - I just wish Harris made less money.
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Re: Cleveland - Minnesota - Philadelphia - Charlotte 

Post#23 » by patman66 » Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:12 pm

tidho wrote:there's no logical reason for CLE to salary dump Kevin Love.


Why not? Signing Love to that extension should have gave the same feeling as waking up in some strange bed, WTF did I do last night!
if they can dump him for expirings and have money next year when most teams won't is the only way to go.
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Re: Cleveland - Minnesota - Philadelphia - Charlotte 

Post#24 » by shrink » Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:14 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
shrink wrote:
tidho wrote:there's no logical reason for CLE to salary dump Kevin Love.

I’m not sure why you would use the word, “logical.”

Isn’t one reason to not write checks to a guy that isn’t worth his contract?


Except he is worth his contract to Cleveland. He's a fan favorite, provides balance to the offense and helps improve the young guards the Cavs have, and he's the best PF on the roster, which regardless of what you think of his contract isn't surprising because Love is still a very productive player who would be hard for almost any team to replace what he would bring.

I agree with you that he is worth more off court to Cleveland than to other teams, but by no stretch of my imagination do I think he’s worth his contract to them, particularly when you consider his health and the direction of the team. You don’t justify paying $30 mil to a guy by saying he helps improve questionable young guards.
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Re: Cleveland - Minnesota - Philadelphia - Charlotte 

Post#25 » by Godaddycurse » Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:02 pm

shrink wrote:First, kudos for talking about Tobias Harris fitting with the Wolves. I hadn’t seen it suggested before, and Rosas is probably looking to upgrade the PF.

In the end though, I agree with Domejandro that Harris is just too expensive. I think this leaves them in a hole like the Wizards were in. With three max deal players who, collectively, just aren’t good enough. They would be unlikely to draw ring-chasing vets in free agency, so I agree they’d have to fill the rest of the roster with cheap young players. These three, and cheap young players, is probably not truly contending.

To keep the financial flexibility, I considered following the talent upgrade model we saw in the Wiggins trade ... Russell plus asset to get Harris. However, with KAT’s attachment to Russell and Rosas’ credibility on the line to future players, I think Russell has more value right now to MIN than other teams, and can’t be traded.

Finally, I agree with your assessment that the Wolves will offer Malik Beasley an offer of a couple mil more than the MLE, but in a Covid landscape, they can certainly try to play hardball. I think though that next year’s free agent offers are nearly all going to be good deals, so I wouldn’t be happy including the #16 to take on Harris’ deal.

I like the concept - I just wish Harris made less money.


I think if Minny lands in top 2 and have a chance at edwards (or ball if you're high on him) then this is a worthy gamble on a core of KAT/Russell/Harris/Edwards. They also don't need beasley if edwards or ball is available.. If they are outside top 2 then i agree they should just trade the pick for more cost effective upgrades.
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Re: Cleveland - Minnesota - Philadelphia - Charlotte 

Post#26 » by youngcrev » Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:54 pm

shrink wrote:First, kudos for talking about Tobias Harris fitting with the Wolves. I hadn’t seen it suggested before, and Rosas is probably looking to upgrade the PF.


Beyond the money, does he really makes sense as a 3rd guy with Towns/Russell? Shouldn't they be looking primarily at defensive talent to surround those 2? Particularly at the 4 spot.

Maybe my way of thinking about how to build around those 2 is just off since they traded away a guy that I thought would have been an optimal fit in Covington.
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Re: Cleveland - Minnesota - Philadelphia - Charlotte 

Post#27 » by Revenged25 » Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:58 pm

shrink wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
shrink wrote:I’m not sure why you would use the word, “logical.”

Isn’t one reason to not write checks to a guy that isn’t worth his contract?


Except he is worth his contract to Cleveland. He's a fan favorite, provides balance to the offense and helps improve the young guards the Cavs have, and he's the best PF on the roster, which regardless of what you think of his contract isn't surprising because Love is still a very productive player who would be hard for almost any team to replace what he would bring.

I agree with you that he is worth more off court to Cleveland than to other teams, but by no stretch of my imagination do I think he’s worth his contract to them, particularly when you consider his health and the direction of the team. You don’t justify paying $30 mil to a guy by saying he helps improve questionable young guards.


To find out how questionable they are, you need weapons they can try to find for assists that might actually knock down a shot. Love is the only player on that Sexton can reasonably rely on knocking down a shot at a clip better than him just forcing it going to a rim. Also his health had him playing 56/65 games this past season, more than Kawhi. Also what is the direction of this team again? The team doesn't even know. Also the $30 mil includes his own production, which look at the list of players that score 15+ ppg, grab 9+ rpb, and shoot 35%+ from 3. Then look at the contracts of those that aren't on rookie deals or signed the deal before they were reliably hitting those numbers. You know what those contracts all have in common? They are quite large. So you pay him for his skillset, the fans love for him while they are still rebuilding so they have someone they like cheering for, and his ability to provide a reliable option for the young guards to see if they really are questionable or able to become something reliable.

But I mean I guess everyone on the team should just be cut and they draft a bunch of new players and if they don't immediately perform move on. I wonder how that would've worked out for the Warriors if they followed your thoughts with Curry after 3 seasons.
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Re: Cleveland - Minnesota - Philadelphia - Charlotte 

Post#28 » by shrink » Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:40 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
shrink wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
Except he is worth his contract to Cleveland. He's a fan favorite, provides balance to the offense and helps improve the young guards the Cavs have, and he's the best PF on the roster, which regardless of what you think of his contract isn't surprising because Love is still a very productive player who would be hard for almost any team to replace what he would bring.

I agree with you that he is worth more off court to Cleveland than to other teams, but by no stretch of my imagination do I think he’s worth his contract to them, particularly when you consider his health and the direction of the team. You don’t justify paying $30 mil to a guy by saying he helps improve questionable young guards.


To find out how questionable they are, you need weapons they can try to find for assists that might actually knock down a shot. Love is the only player on that Sexton can reasonably rely on knocking down a shot at a clip better than him just forcing it going to a rim. Also his health had him playing 56/65 games this past season, more than Kawhi. Also what is the direction of this team again? The team doesn't even know. Also the $30 mil includes his own production, which look at the list of players that score 15+ ppg, grab 9+ rpb, and shoot 35%+ from 3. Then look at the contracts of those that aren't on rookie deals or signed the deal before they were reliably hitting those numbers. You know what those contracts all have in common? They are quite large. So you pay him for his skillset, the fans love for him while they are still rebuilding so they have someone they like cheering for, and his ability to provide a reliable option for the young guards to see if they really are questionable or able to become something reliable.

But I mean I guess everyone on the team should just be cut and they draft a bunch of new players and if they don't immediately perform move on. I wonder how that would've worked out for the Warriors if they followed your thoughts with Curry after 3 seasons.

Please don’t do this.
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Re: Cleveland - Minnesota - Philadelphia - Charlotte 

Post#29 » by tidho » Sat Aug 1, 2020 3:27 am

shrink wrote:
tidho wrote:there's no logical reason for CLE to salary dump Kevin Love.

I’m not sure why you would use the word, “logical.”

Isn’t one reason to not write checks to a guy that isn’t worth his contract?


I don't think most NBA players are worth what they're paid, but if we presume the NBA salary structure is in its entirety acceptable then Love is worth his contract. By the last year of his deal, he's already like the 28th highest salary, in two years he's probably going to be in the 75th range.
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Re: Cleveland - Minnesota - Philadelphia - Charlotte 

Post#30 » by gflem » Sat Aug 1, 2020 2:06 pm

tidho wrote:
shrink wrote:
tidho wrote:there's no logical reason for CLE to salary dump Kevin Love.

I’m not sure why you would use the word, “logical.”

Isn’t one reason to not write checks to a guy that isn’t worth his contract?


I don't think most NBA players are worth what they're paid, but if we presume the NBA salary structure is in its entirety acceptable then Love is worth his contract. By the last year of his deal, he's already like the 28th highest salary, in two years he's probably going to be in the 75th range.

Pre-covid I would agree but its a going to be much different for most FA's I believe. I just hate the back and forth about K Love, it seems that most can't seem to find any middle ground. For me, I don't think his production is worth his contract, but there are some intangibles specifically in Cleveland that justified re-signing him. Personally I think he is getting about $5 mil or so more than he should, and if he were making $24 or $25 mil per I think he already would have been traded for matching salary and draft assets.
As a long time Cavs fan I appreciate Love but the team is in a total rebuild that is likely going to take 3-5 years just to figure out who the keepers are (if any at this point) and Love doesn't fit that timeline. Sure he helps on the court, but imo the team should look into moving him and Drummond at some point for whatever assets that the team thinks are fair value. I don't think that a pure salary dump is in order, as that would send the players and fans the wrong message, that the team is just trying to save $ and not trying to improve for the future.
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Re: Cleveland - Minnesota - Philadelphia - Charlotte 

Post#31 » by Stillwater » Sat Aug 1, 2020 3:49 pm

gflem wrote:
tidho wrote:
shrink wrote:I’m not sure why you would use the word, “logical.”

Isn’t one reason to not write checks to a guy that isn’t worth his contract?


I don't think most NBA players are worth what they're paid, but if we presume the NBA salary structure is in its entirety acceptable then Love is worth his contract. By the last year of his deal, he's already like the 28th highest salary, in two years he's probably going to be in the 75th range.

Pre-covid I would agree but its a going to be much different for most FA's I believe. I just hate the back and forth about K Love, it seems that most can't seem to find any middle ground. For me, I don't think his production is worth his contract, but there are some intangibles specifically in Cleveland that justified re-signing him. Personally I think he is getting about $5 mil or so more than he should, and if he were making $24 or $25 mil per I think he already would have been traded for matching salary and draft assets.
As a long time Cavs fan I appreciate Love but the team is in a total rebuild that is likely going to take 3-5 years just to figure out who the keepers are (if any at this point) and Love doesn't fit that timeline. Sure he helps on the court, but imo the team should look into moving him and Drummond at some point for whatever assets that the team thinks are fair value. I don't think that a pure salary dump is in order, as that would send the players and fans the wrong message, that the team is just trying to save $ and not trying to improve for the future.

Right I think given his contract is a slight overpay,possible in some orgs minds a huge overpay for his health issues and the state of the League will mean he is never going to get traded out of CLE unless they decide to get rid of him the same way they got Drummond.
I do think they could get a couple high 2nds from Philly if they were willing to take back Horford or something but you would have to really love the prospect options to do that given the difference between the contracts and player ages are negligible. But Horford is cooked and when healthy Love is still a solid pro.
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Re: Cleveland - Minnesota - Philadelphia - Charlotte 

Post#32 » by shrink » Sat Aug 1, 2020 4:23 pm

tidho wrote:
shrink wrote:
tidho wrote:there's no logical reason for CLE to salary dump Kevin Love.

I’m not sure why you would use the word, “logical.”

Isn’t one reason to not write checks to a guy that isn’t worth his contract?


I don't think most NBA players are worth what they're paid, but if we presume the NBA salary structure is in its entirety acceptable then Love is worth his contract.

I gave this idea a lot of thought. You can correct me if I’m wrong, because I hate when people put words in my mouth, but are you saying, “since everyone is overpaid, no one is?”

I really think there are variations on the scale.
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Re: Cleveland - Minnesota - Philadelphia - Charlotte 

Post#33 » by shrink » Sat Aug 1, 2020 4:33 pm

gflem wrote: For me, I don't think his production is worth his contract, but there are some intangibles specifically in Cleveland that justified re-signing him. Personally I think he is getting about $5 mil or so more than he should, and if he were making $24 or $25 mil per I think he already would have been traded for matching salary and draft assets.

I appreciate your post, giving out your view of an exact number.

For me, I think for $25 mil you should get an All Star, and I don’t think Kevin Love is an All Star player any more. He’s good, but age/injury risk, and his inability to defend put him for me at the $20 mil category - less if he gets hurt.

The fact that he makes $91 mil for his age 32, 33, and 34 upcoming seasons makes me feel he has a tens of millions of bad money on his deal.

Good, useful player, and I like the guy, but I think the majority of neutral fans agree this is a bad contract.
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Re: Cleveland - Minnesota - Philadelphia - Charlotte 

Post#34 » by Stillwater » Sat Aug 1, 2020 6:04 pm

shrink wrote:
gflem wrote: For me, I don't think his production is worth his contract, but there are some intangibles specifically in Cleveland that justified re-signing him. Personally I think he is getting about $5 mil or so more than he should, and if he were making $24 or $25 mil per I think he already would have been traded for matching salary and draft assets.

I appreciate your post, giving out your view of an exact number.

For me, I think for $25 mil you should get an All Star, and I don’t think Kevin Love is an All Star player any more. He’s good, but age/injury risk, and his inability to defend put him for me at the $20 mil category - less if he gets hurt.

The fact that he makes $91 mil for his age 32, 33, and 34 upcoming seasons makes me feel he has a tens of millions of bad money on his deal.

Good, useful player, and I like the guy, but I think the majority of neutral fans agree this is a bad contract.

you are correct about pay scale per valuation as a impact on the court at present doesn't add up...and so it is a overpaid contract and there are plenty around the league just like that. I think the thing you are diminishing is CLE rewarded this guy for his allstar perfomances and sacrifices in usage to make it all work with Lebron during the 4 finals appearances and although they didnt need to pay him that much to retain him, the owner is extremely generous and takes care of anyone loyal to his org like KLove has been since they traded for him. alot of his current salary was earned before he ever got the current deal.
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Re: Cleveland - Minnesota - Philadelphia - Charlotte 

Post#35 » by shrink » Sat Aug 1, 2020 6:49 pm

Stillwater wrote:
shrink wrote:
gflem wrote: For me, I don't think his production is worth his contract, but there are some intangibles specifically in Cleveland that justified re-signing him. Personally I think he is getting about $5 mil or so more than he should, and if he were making $24 or $25 mil per I think he already would have been traded for matching salary and draft assets.

I appreciate your post, giving out your view of an exact number.

For me, I think for $25 mil you should get an All Star, and I don’t think Kevin Love is an All Star player any more. He’s good, but age/injury risk, and his inability to defend put him for me at the $20 mil category - less if he gets hurt.

The fact that he makes $91 mil for his age 32, 33, and 34 upcoming seasons makes me feel he has a tens of millions of bad money on his deal.

Good, useful player, and I like the guy, but I think the majority of neutral fans agree this is a bad contract.

you are correct about pay scale per valuation as a impact on the court at present doesn't add up...and so it is a overpaid contract and there are plenty around the league just like that. I think the thing you are diminishing is CLE rewarded this guy for his allstar perfomances and sacrifices in usage to make it all work with Lebron during the 4 finals appearances and although they didnt need to pay him that much to retain him, the owner is extremely generous and takes care of anyone loyal to his org like KLove has been since they traded for him. alot of his current salary was earned before he ever got the current deal.

I agree, and I would add that Gilbert paid Love for the fans as well. It would be hard for any fanbase to go from LeBron, Kyrie and Love to none of them, so rewarding Love made some sense to the owner.

However, we’re talking about his trade value today to other teams, which I think is negative.

I can understand why he is in trade speculation here. A poster sees a team wanting to contend and thinks they can add a good player for little, or even negative assets to receive Love from a rebuilding Cleveland. However, I think Love’s offcourt value to CLE wouldn’t be compensated for in trade, because the receiving team doesn’t benefit from that.

I doubt Love gets traded and most Cavs fans are probably fine with that.
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Re: Cleveland - Minnesota - Philadelphia - Charlotte 

Post#36 » by minimus » Sun Aug 2, 2020 5:30 pm

Perfect PF in MIN must be able to defend at high level.
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Re: Cleveland - Minnesota - Philadelphia - Charlotte 

Post#37 » by tidho » Mon Aug 3, 2020 4:17 pm

shrink wrote:
tidho wrote:
shrink wrote:I’m not sure why you would use the word, “logical.”

Isn’t one reason to not write checks to a guy that isn’t worth his contract?


I don't think most NBA players are worth what they're paid, but if we presume the NBA salary structure is in its entirety acceptable then Love is worth his contract.

I gave this idea a lot of thought. You can correct me if I’m wrong, because I hate when people put words in my mouth, but are you saying, “since everyone is overpaid, no one is?”

I really think there are variations on the scale.


obviously there are variations on the scale, my comment was simply an acknowledgment that the scale exists.

I think Love is a little overpaid and by the time the last year of his deal rolls around, he likely no longer will be.
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Re: Cleveland - Minnesota - Philadelphia - Charlotte 

Post#38 » by wolves_89 » Mon Aug 3, 2020 5:36 pm

If Beasley can be signed for a few million more than the MLE the Wolves will happily keep him. Also, I have absolutely no interest in taking on the Harris contract. This should be a definite no for Minnesota.

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