Turner to the Celtics - How?

[100proof]

As A new coach ... you have to give him time for him to find out what works and what doesn't before making moves

and I hope that's agreed in the interview process as I don't want to hire anyone who demands roster changes before trying to find out what works.

Agreed, unless he has had a player in the past and can't work with him, but something like that has to be addressed beforehand. I am sure the potential coach has been asked to give his opinion of the team as seen from a distance and how those players fit his system or how he plans to utilize their strengths or minimize weaknesses. tough interview when the guy who put together the team is the guy interviewing you!

Depends on the confidence of the coach.

Its obvious the man who built the team has not built a contender, as evidenced by recent playoff successes. And if a bunch of us goofs on an internet board thinks we can make improvements to a team then you know nba professionals do.

Lol

[basketballwacko2]

We know we're not negotiating real deals here. But, we also know that the more we talk and discuss, the more we may learn, and the more educated we may be when we watch the games and we observe team building happen. It's a forum. Discussion is one point. Learning is another point. If you think its worthy of a dig, why come here?

I've been on this site since 2002, that's more than 18 years, longer than some posters have been alive I'll guess. If you hang around here long enough you can learn a lot. When I started I barely knew the rules on trading, now I know a fair bit about the CBA and team building. The Real NBA is not a video game, you can't just swap guys out and some times guys are better for one team than they'd be for any other team. I'm not talking about the great players like Harden or GA, LBJ or Kahwi Leonard, but when a team has a weak spot you can't just delete one of their best players at that spot and add a guy at another spot even if he's good. You end up with an unbalanced team.

There is no one on this site more capable of ripping people than I am, I have to remind myself all the time not to do it. So when when our little friend patman66 wants to get snippy I just laugh at him and let it go.

And by calling me a little friend is not a dig?

Listen that coming from me is a compliment.

[patman66]

I've been on this site since 2002, that's more than 18 years, longer than some posters have been alive I'll guess. If you hang around here long enough you can learn a lot. When I started I barely knew the rules on trading, now I know a fair bit about the CBA and team building. The Real NBA is not a video game, you can't just swap guys out and some times guys are better for one team than they'd be for any other team. I'm not talking about the great players like Harden or GA, LBJ or Kahwi Leonard, but when a team has a weak spot you can't just delete one of their best players at that spot and add a guy at another spot even if he's good. You end up with an unbalanced team.

There is no one on this site more capable of ripping people than I am, I have to remind myself all the time not to do it. So when when our little friend patman66 wants to get snippy I just laugh at him and let it go.

And by calling me a little friend is not a dig?

Listen that coming from me is a compliment.

how so

[basketballwacko2]

I've been on this site since 2002, that's more than 18 years, longer than some posters have been alive I'll guess. If you hang around here long enough you can learn a lot. When I started I barely knew the rules on trading, now I know a fair bit about the CBA and team building. The Real NBA is not a video game, you can't just swap guys out and some times guys are better for one team than they'd be for any other team. I'm not talking about the great players like Harden or GA, LBJ or Kahwi Leonard, but when a team has a weak spot you can't just delete one of their best players at that spot and add a guy at another spot even if he's good. You end up with an unbalanced team.

There is no one on this site more capable of ripping people than I am, I have to remind myself all the time not to do it. So when when our little friend patman66 wants to get snippy I just laugh at him and let it go.

And by calling me a little friend is not a dig?

Yeah, it is. And a touch over the line, in all fairness.

Scooter you couldn't even imagine how an insult from me looks! I've posted for 10 years on a site that is a total free for all with almost no moderation. When I come here I have to reset my mentality. I got banned from twitter because of my penchant for ripping people new ones. If I said 10% of the things that come to mind I'd get banned in a 10 seconds.

[basketballwacko2]

And by calling me a little friend is not a dig?

Listen that coming from me is a compliment.

how so

I referred to you as a "friend" didn't I?

[basketballwacko2]

It seems to me that this thread has taken an evolutionary step backwards.

We should all be able to see by now that there is no deal to be made for Turner to the Celtics unless they are able to send Hayward off to a 3rd team for something the Pacers might want.

[pacers33granger]

There's also evidence that his offensive struggles are related to having a poor offensive coach who asked him to change and sacrifice far too often. As an example, he worked with Mchale on post moves one off-season and then gets asked to be a stretch big in camp. It's happened to him several times in his young career and he could benefit from a more clear/consistent directive.

This offseason. He was sent home after last season with the staff asking him to work on his post moves on the summer and plan on playing the 5, which he did. Then, when he arrived for camp, the team asked him to slim down and play on the perimeter as the 4 on offense. We really should've seen this as a much bigger red flag when it came to McMillan's development/coaching.

I thought it was this one, but wasn't 100% sure. And yeah, that opens up a whole new part of all of this in the fact that we'd like to see what someone else could do for him. He had a rookie year with Vogel and then it's been all Nate since then.

And I've said it before in here and most Turner threads, but it can't be discounted that he has sacrificed whenever asked to and took it upon himself to make it work. I'm not sure how many other 23 year olds would be fine sliding down to an unnatural position to allow their backup to shine and cheer him on while doing so. We could easily have had a Jokic/Nurkic situation where we have to sell for pennies on the dollar.

[Scoot McGroot]

And by calling me a little friend is not a dig?

Yeah, it is. And a touch over the line, in all fairness.

Scooter you couldn't even imagine how an insult from me looks! I've posted for 10 years on a site that is a total free for all with almost no moderation. When I come here I have to reset my mentality. I got banned from twitter because of my penchant for ripping people new ones. If I said 10% of the things that come to mind I'd get banned in a 10 seconds.

I get it, and I have come to know you here for a long time. I also know you’re trying, but no one likes being referred to as “little friend”, or otherwise, “guy”, “sport”, or “buddy”. They’re just inherently understood to be a slight on some way, and it’s only fair to recognize that patman66 is accurate in pointing that out.

I try to build bridges, is all.

[patman66]

And by calling me a little friend is not a dig?

Yeah, it is. And a touch over the line, in all fairness.

Scooter you couldn't even imagine how an insult from me looks! I've posted for 10 years on a site that is a total free for all with almost no moderation. When I come here I have to reset my mentality. I got banned from twitter because of my penchant for ripping people new ones. If I said 10% of the things that come to mind I'd get banned in a 10 seconds.

That is something you are proud off/ the abilty to sit behind a keyboard and type insults to someone 1000 miles away?

[basketballwacko2]

Yeah, it is. And a touch over the line, in all fairness.

Scooter you couldn't even imagine how an insult from me looks! I've posted for 10 years on a site that is a total free for all with almost no moderation. When I come here I have to reset my mentality. I got banned from twitter because of my penchant for ripping people new ones. If I said 10% of the things that come to mind I'd get banned in a 10 seconds.

That is something you are proud off/ the abilty to sit behind a keyboard and type insults to someone 1000 miles away?

You should hear some of the things I've said to people to their face! I'm a big guy and former kick boxer, so if I tell someone where to go and they don't like it their welcome to do something about it.

Fact is I've had about 300 death threats from internet tough guys, I don't threaten people, unless I threaten your manliness which I can't help that some people are insecure. I've always been able to cash any checks that my mouth writes.

I always say if you get offended easy you might consider putting me on ignore.

[basketballwacko2]

Yeah, it is. And a touch over the line, in all fairness.

Scooter you couldn't even imagine how an insult from me looks! I've posted for 10 years on a site that is a total free for all with almost no moderation. When I come here I have to reset my mentality. I got banned from twitter because of my penchant for ripping people new ones. If I said 10% of the things that come to mind I'd get banned in a 10 seconds.

I get it, and I have come to know you here for a long time. I also know you’re trying, but no one likes being referred to as “little friend”, or otherwise, “guy”, “sport”, or “buddy”. They’re just inherently understood to be a slight on some way, and it’s only fair to recognize that patman66 is accurate in pointing that out.

I try to build bridges, is all.

The last time I got really riled up on this site was during the last days of the Paul George fiasco. Problem is with too many people is that they want to dish it out but can't take it. So if I hurt that guys feeling well so be it.

[Ell Curry]

I could see something like this:

Boston - Turner, Lamb
Indy - Hayward, Robert Williams, Grant Williams

Turner/Theis
Brown/Tatum
Tatum/MLE
Smart/Lamb
Kemba/Waters

Sabonis/R.Williams
Warren/Grant Williams
Hayward/McDermott
Oladipo/J.Holliday
Brogdon/A.Holliday

And the pacers extend Hardaway, but feels risky from them. Love it for the Celtics. Could also do a pick swap or add Langford for value purposes.

[patman66]

Scooter you couldn't even imagine how an insult from me looks! I've posted for 10 years on a site that is a total free for all with almost no moderation. When I come here I have to reset my mentality. I got banned from twitter because of my penchant for ripping people new ones. If I said 10% of the things that come to mind I'd get banned in a 10 seconds.

That is something you are proud off/ the abilty to sit behind a keyboard and type insults to someone 1000 miles away?

You should hear some of the things I've said to people to their face! I'm a big guy and former kick boxer, so if I tell someone where to go and they don't like it their welcome to do something about it.

Fact is I've had about 300 death threats from internet tough guys, I don't threaten people, unless I threaten your manliness which I can't help that some people are insecure. I've always been able to cash any checks that my mouth writes.

I always say if you get offended easy you might consider putting me on ignore.

Why do you think I should hear some of those insults? I am not the one who who got upset with a little jab towards comparing wilt/turner, you were and it was not even directed to you as a person/poster but to a generic posters whom in my opinion was placing an elevated price tag on a player from a team that they watch on tv. I think your projecting, but yes, when a poster's personality is what you object to and not their content, the ignore feature should be used.

[Topofthekey]

That is something you are proud off/ the abilty to sit behind a keyboard and type insults to someone 1000 miles away?

You should hear some of the things I've said to people to their face! I'm a big guy and former kick boxer, so if I tell someone where to go and they don't like it their welcome to do something about it.

Fact is I've had about 300 death threats from internet tough guys, I don't threaten people, unless I threaten your manliness which I can't help that some people are insecure. I've always been able to cash any checks that my mouth writes.

I always say if you get offended easy you might consider putting me on ignore.

Why do you think I should hear some of those insults? I am not the one who who got upset with a little jab towards comparing wilt/turner, you were and it was not even directed to you as a person/poster but to a generic posters whom in my opinion was placing an elevated price tag on a player from a team that they watch on tv. I think your projecting, but yes, when a poster's personality is what you object to and not their content, the ignore feature should be used.

Interesting

Which poster do you think placed an elevated/unrealistic price tag on Turner?

I'm trying to get a sense of what is (or isn't) considered an elevated/unrealistic price tag for Turner

[Scoot McGroot]

I could see something like this:

Boston - Turner, Lamb
Indy - Hayward, Robert Williams, Grant Williams

Turner/Theis
Brown/Tatum
Tatum/MLE
Smart/Lamb
Kemba/Waters

Sabonis/R.Williams
Warren/Grant Williams
Hayward/McDermott
Oladipo/J.Holliday
Brogdon/A.Holliday

And the pacers extend Hardaway, but feels risky from them. Love it for the Celtics. Could also do a pick swap or add Langford for value purposes.

It’s not near a legal deal for salary matching purposes. Indy takes in more salary than legally allowable here. And, with adding $10m to the books, and still having 3 roster spots to fill, Indy is already o we the luxury tax, and cannot even consider re signing Justin Holiday.

Regardless of whether a Hayward/Turner deal makes some sense on court, with Hayward making almost twice as much, and a tight luxury tax environment, it’s extremely difficult to make something reasonably work, as Indy would have to deal multiple rotation pieces to match salary, and wouldn’t save enough to be able to replace them with anything other than vet minimum salaries. Most of these concepts require Indy being 9 deep, and then having 6 vet minimum signings off the street to fill out the roster, and still being over the luxury tax. The mechanics of a swap are difficult.

[Topofthekey]

I could see something like this:

Boston - Turner, Lamb
Indy - Hayward, Robert Williams, Grant Williams

Turner/Theis
Brown/Tatum
Tatum/MLE
Smart/Lamb
Kemba/Waters

Sabonis/R.Williams
Warren/Grant Williams
Hayward/McDermott
Oladipo/J.Holliday
Brogdon/A.Holliday

And the pacers extend Hardaway, but feels risky from them. Love it for the Celtics. Could also do a pick swap or add Langford for value purposes.

I mean, this thread is basically 11 pages of discussion about why a Hayward-Turner swap will not work

If it's about Celtics trying to get some value out of Hayward before he leaves via free agency, then

Gordon Hayward

for

Jeremy Lamb + Doug McDermott + TJ McConnell + Justin Holiday (S&T)


Celtics:
Theis / Williams
Tatum / Holiday
Brown / McDermott
Smart / Lamb
Kemba / McConnell

Pacers:
Turner / Bitadze
Sabonis / Sampson
Hayward / Warren
Oladipo / Sumner
Brogdon / Holiday


Celtics upgrade their depth and turn Hayward into a bunch of quality, cost controlled bench players

Pacers consolidate their bench pieces into one quality player and hope to re-sign/extend him

But I have a feeling this isn't what Celtics are looking for

[Scoot McGroot]

I could see something like this:

Boston - Turner, Lamb
Indy - Hayward, Robert Williams, Grant Williams

Turner/Theis
Brown/Tatum
Tatum/MLE
Smart/Lamb
Kemba/Waters

Sabonis/R.Williams
Warren/Grant Williams
Hayward/McDermott
Oladipo/J.Holliday
Brogdon/A.Holliday

And the pacers extend Hardaway, but feels risky from them. Love it for the Celtics. Could also do a pick swap or add Langford for value purposes.

I mean, this thread is basically 11 pages of discussion about why a Hayward-Turner swap will not work

If it's about Celtics trying to get some value out of Hayward before he leaves via free agency, then

Gordon Hayward

for

Jeremy Lamb + Doug McDermott + TJ McConnell + Justin Holiday (S&T)


Celtics:
Theis / Williams
Tatum / Holiday
Brown / McDermott
Smart / Lamb
Kemba / McConnell

Pacers:
Turner / Bitadze
Sabonis / Sampson
Hayward / Warren
Oladipo / Sumner
Brogdon / Holiday


Celtics upgrade their depth and turn Hayward into a bunch of quality, cost controlled bench players

Pacers consolidate their bench pieces into one quality player and hope to re-sign/extend him

But I have a feeling this isn't what Celtics are looking for

We realistically can not afford this either. This would add $13m to the books for 2021, and leave us with 10 players on the books and $138m in salary, which is likely almost $6m over the tax before even filling out the last 5 roster spots (Anywhere from $6-9m additional salary if just 2nd round and vet minimum signings). Even if we loved the value, the cost just isn’t there.

[Topofthekey]

Spoiler:

I could see something like this:

Boston - Turner, Lamb
Indy - Hayward, Robert Williams, Grant Williams

Turner/Theis
Brown/Tatum
Tatum/MLE
Smart/Lamb
Kemba/Waters

Sabonis/R.Williams
Warren/Grant Williams
Hayward/McDermott
Oladipo/J.Holliday
Brogdon/A.Holliday

And the pacers extend Hardaway, but feels risky from them. Love it for the Celtics. Could also do a pick swap or add Langford for value purposes.

I mean, this thread is basically 11 pages of discussion about why a Hayward-Turner swap will not work

If it's about Celtics trying to get some value out of Hayward before he leaves via free agency, then

Gordon Hayward

for

Jeremy Lamb + Doug McDermott + TJ McConnell + Justin Holiday (S&T)


Celtics:
Theis / Williams
Tatum / Holiday
Brown / McDermott
Smart / Lamb
Kemba / McConnell

Pacers:
Turner / Bitadze
Sabonis / Sampson
Hayward / Warren
Oladipo / Sumner
Brogdon / Holiday


Celtics upgrade their depth and turn Hayward into a bunch of quality, cost controlled bench players

Pacers consolidate their bench pieces into one quality player and hope to re-sign/extend him

But I have a feeling this isn't what Celtics are looking for

We realistically can not afford this either. This would add $13m to the books for 2021, and leave us with 10 players on the books and $138m in salary, which is likely almost $6m over the tax before even filling out the last 5 roster spots (Anywhere from $6-9m additional salary if just 2nd round and vet minimum signings). Even if we loved the value, the cost just isn’t there.

2021 salary:

Lamb 10.5
McDermott 7.3
McConnell 3.5
Holiday (assuming he signs for $9m)

Total: 30.3

Hayward 34.2

Pacers are adding about 3.9m in salary, not 13m


Pacers salary in 2021:

Turner 18
Sabonis 17.2
Hayward 34.2
Oladipo 21
Brogdon 20.7
Goga 3
Warren 11.8
Sumner 2.2
Holiday 2.3
Leaf 4.3

Total: 134.7m

Estimated 2021 luxury threshold: 139m

It'll be tight, but fill out the last 5 roster spots with minimum contract players and it'll be doable

Pacers can also dump Leaf by attaching a small asset like 2RP to him if necessary

[pacers33granger]

Pacers are adding about 3.9m in salary, not 13m

I assume Scoot's figure of $13 mil was from current salary, so not factoring in Holiday. In any event, it's 4 for 1 while taking on salary, which just isn't doable.

Pacers salary in 2021:

Turner 18
Sabonis 17.2
Hayward 34.2
Oladipo 21
Brogdon 20.7
Goga 3
Warren 11.8
Sumner 2.2
Holiday 2.3
Leaf 4.3

Total: 134.7m

Estimated 2021 luxury threshold: 139m

It'll be tight, but fill out the last 5 roster spots with minimum contract players and it'll be doable

With Leaf being garbage, that gives us 6 roster spots for guys who shouldn't ever see any playing time. This team doesn't have GS level talent, so that's not really an option. And every single one of the guys slated to play big minutes has had injury concerns at one time or another.

And that's the roster going forward, except we'd lose Aaron next offseason. You can basically switch Hayward and Vic's deals next year so it's likely close to a wash there. It's going all in on a shaky roster that could be a contender, but would need several things to break right for that to happen and likely still falls short anyways.

Pacers can also dump Leaf by attaching a small asset like 2RP to him if necessary

One 2nd isn't going to do it. He's $4.3 mil of wasted space. In this climate, who is doing us the favor of essentially buying a future 2nd for that kind of money? Two may do it if they're expected to be decent ones and the other team feels Leaf has some potential left, but each seem doubtful.

[patman66]

You should hear some of the things I've said to people to their face! I'm a big guy and former kick boxer, so if I tell someone where to go and they don't like it their welcome to do something about it.

Fact is I've had about 300 death threats from internet tough guys, I don't threaten people, unless I threaten your manliness which I can't help that some people are insecure. I've always been able to cash any checks that my mouth writes.

I always say if you get offended easy you might consider putting me on ignore.

Why do you think I should hear some of those insults? I am not the one who who got upset with a little jab towards comparing wilt/turner, you were and it was not even directed to you as a person/poster but to a generic posters whom in my opinion was placing an elevated price tag on a player from a team that they watch on tv. I think your projecting, but yes, when a poster's personality is what you object to and not their content, the ignore feature should be used.

Interesting

Which poster do you think placed an elevated/unrealistic price tag on Turner?

I'm trying to get a sense of what is (or isn't) considered an elevated/unrealistic price tag for Turner

I am taking a step back out of the thread. I painted opposing posters with a broad brush and and did not mean to cause animosity. It does not matter which of the posters disagreed with me. I thought my hypothetical package of Theis, Bjelica, Jymichal Green, (both acquired by celts an sent to Indy) Langford and the 14th pick (eye on Precious) was a fair package, so I thought any poster that disagreed with me was being unreasonable. Pacer fans in this thread believe a better package could be had. Fine, I was unable to be convinced it was not a fair package. If you think something is fair and someone disagrees with you, it is reasonable to believe that the fault lays on the other side.