Turner to the Celtics - How?

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Re: Turner to the Celtics - How? 

Post#221 » by pacers33granger » Sat Sep 19, 2020 3:25 pm

patman66 wrote:
I thought my hypothetical package of Theis, Bjelica, Jymichal Green, (both acquired by celts an sent to Indy) Langford and the 14th pick was a fair package, so I thought any poster that disagreed with me was being unreasonable. Pacer fans in this thread believe a better package could be had. Fine, I was unable to be convinced it was not a fair package. If you think something is fair and someone disagrees with you, it is reasonable to believe that the fault lays on the other side.


I may have missed it but I don't think Pacer fans (most anyways) argued against the package being fair value. It's just not the direction we want to take. It may be at a later date, but not now.

We all basically recognize that the type of player we'd want for Turner isn't out there for him, but we're more than fine keeping him.
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Re: Turner to the Celtics - How? 

Post#222 » by Wizop » Sat Sep 19, 2020 3:33 pm

this thread just won't die.
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Re: Turner to the Celtics - How? 

Post#223 » by Topofthekey » Sat Sep 19, 2020 3:39 pm

pacers33granger wrote:
Spoiler:
Topofthekey wrote:
Pacers are adding about 3.9m in salary, not 13m


I assume Scoot's figure of $13 mil was from current salary, so not factoring in Holiday. In any event, it's 4 for 1 while taking on salary, which just isn't doable.


Topofthekey wrote:Pacers salary in 2021:

Turner 18
Sabonis 17.2
Hayward 34.2
Oladipo 21
Brogdon 20.7
Goga 3
Warren 11.8
Sumner 2.2
Holiday 2.3
Leaf 4.3

Total: 134.7m

Estimated 2021 luxury threshold: 139m

It'll be tight, but fill out the last 5 roster spots with minimum contract players and it'll be doable


With Leaf being garbage, that gives us 6 roster spots for guys who shouldn't ever see any playing time. This team doesn't have GS level talent, so that's not really an option. And every single one of the guys slated to play big minutes has had injury concerns at one time or another.

And that's the roster going forward, except we'd lose Aaron next offseason. You can basically switch Hayward and Vic's deals next year so it's likely close to a wash there. It's going all in on a shaky roster that could be a contender, but would need several things to break right for that to happen and likely still falls short anyways.

Turner/Sabonis/Hayward/Oladipo/Brogdon/Warren/Holiday/Sumner gives Pacers 8 reliable rotational players, but you're right that a lot could go wrong, when the 9h player is Goga who is an untested entity

But the same could more or less be said about the other contenders. The 9th player of their respective teams are:

Bucks: Kyle Korver?
Celtics: Romeo Langford?
Raptors: Chris Boucher?
Clippers: Landry Shamet?
Nuggets: Mason Plumlee?
Rockets: Ben McLemore?

Imo the quality isn't that much better than Goga

Also gives the team the impetus to comb for quality (relatively speaking) players on minimum contracts


pacers33granger wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:Pacers can also dump Leaf by attaching a small asset like 2RP to him if necessary


One 2nd isn't going to do it. He's $4.3 mil of wasted space. In this climate, who is doing us the favor of essentially buying a future 2nd for that kind of money? Two may do it if they're expected to be decent ones and the other team feels Leaf has some potential left, but each seem doubtful.

Maybe

But Leaf is an expiring with only one more year remaining. Attaching two 2RP to him should probably attract some takers, especially if as you say they are willing to give Leaf a chance
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Re: Turner to the Celtics - How? 

Post#224 » by Scoot McGroot » Sat Sep 19, 2020 4:03 pm

Topofthekey wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
Spoiler:
Topofthekey wrote:I mean, this thread is basically 11 pages of discussion about why a Hayward-Turner swap will not work

If it's about Celtics trying to get some value out of Hayward before he leaves via free agency, then

Gordon Hayward

for

Jeremy Lamb + Doug McDermott + TJ McConnell + Justin Holiday (S&T)


Celtics:
Theis / Williams
Tatum / Holiday
Brown / McDermott
Smart / Lamb
Kemba / McConnell

Pacers:
Turner / Bitadze
Sabonis / Sampson
Hayward / Warren
Oladipo / Sumner
Brogdon / Holiday


Celtics upgrade their depth and turn Hayward into a bunch of quality, cost controlled bench players

Pacers consolidate their bench pieces into one quality player and hope to re-sign/extend him

But I have a feeling this isn't what Celtics are looking for


We realistically can not afford this either. This would add $13m to the books for 2021, and leave us with 10 players on the books and $138m in salary, which is likely almost $6m over the tax before even filling out the last 5 roster spots (Anywhere from $6-9m additional salary if just 2nd round and vet minimum signings). Even if we loved the value, the cost just isn’t there.

2021 salary:

Lamb 10.5
McDermott 7.3
McConnell 3.5
Holiday (assuming he signs for $9m)

Total: 30.3

Hayward 34.2

Pacers are adding about 3.9m in salary, not 13m


Pacers salary in 2021:

Turner 18
Sabonis 17.2
Hayward 34.2
Oladipo 21
Brogdon 20.7
Goga 3
Warren 11.8
Sumner 2.2
Holiday 2.3
Leaf 4.3

Total: 134.7m

Estimated 2021 luxury threshold: 139m

It'll be tight, but fill out the last 5 roster spots with minimum contract players and it'll be doable

Pacers can also dump Leaf by attaching a small asset like 2RP to him if necessary


Justin Holiday isn’t already signed so he’s $0, not $9m.

Otherwise, look at your roster. $135m for only 10 of 15 roster spots. And the current projection is that at best, the current year luxury tax of $132.6m carries over. Vet minimum counts as about $1.6m per roster spot for luxury tax purposes, so 5 spots is around $8m. So, $142m payroll on a $132m tax line. Pay to dump Leaf, and still around $6m over the tax. Pay to dump McDermott and his $7.3m, and you’re just $1.3~ under the tax, but now with one required spot to fill, 2 if you want all 15 roster spots filled, and with that $1.6m~ minimum, you’re back over the tax again.
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Re: Turner to the Celtics - How? 

Post#225 » by pacers33granger » Sat Sep 19, 2020 4:16 pm

Topofthekey wrote:Turner/Sabonis/Hayward/Oladipo/Brogdon/Warren/Holiday/Sumner gives Pacers 8 reliable rotational players, but you're right that a lot could go wrong, when the 9h player is Goga who is an untested entity

But the same could more or less be said about the other contenders. The 9th player of their respective teams are:

Bucks: Kyle Korver?
Celtics: Romeo Langford?
Raptors: Chris Boucher?
Clippers: Landry Shamet?
Nuggets: Mason Plumlee?
Rockets: Ben McLemore?

Imo the quality isn't that much better than Goga

Also gives the team the impetus to comb for quality (relatively speaking) players on minimum contracts



Most, if not all, of those teams have guys 9-12 who have some NBA experience. They also all have better star players than we do.

I think we'd be looking at G-League level guys to keep it cheap enough to stay under the tax. And my big concern, again, is the fact that none of our top 6 guys there would be expected to put in a full season.

And again, we couldn't afford Aaron the following offseason, so we're back down to 8 reliable guys if Goga proves he's deserving of minutes or just 7 if not. It's certainly doable in theory, but is an all in move that I'm not sold gets us to contender status absent a jump from someone and/or an unreasonably healthy year from everyone.
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Re: Turner to the Celtics - How? 

Post#226 » by patman66 » Sat Sep 19, 2020 5:38 pm

pacers33granger wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:Turner/Sabonis/Hayward/Oladipo/Brogdon/Warren/Holiday/Sumner gives Pacers 8 reliable rotational players, but you're right that a lot could go wrong, when the 9h player is Goga who is an untested entity

But the same could more or less be said about the other contenders. The 9th player of their respective teams are:

Bucks: Kyle Korver?
Celtics: Romeo Langford?
Raptors: Chris Boucher?
Clippers: Landry Shamet?
Nuggets: Mason Plumlee?
Rockets: Ben McLemore?

Imo the quality isn't that much better than Goga

Also gives the team the impetus to comb for quality (relatively speaking) players on minimum contracts



Most, if not all, of those teams have guys 9-12 who have some NBA experience. They also all have better star players than we do.

I think we'd be looking at G-League level guys to keep it cheap enough to stay under the tax. And my big concern, again, is the fact that none of our top 6 guys there would be expected to put in a full season.

And again, we couldn't afford Aaron the following offseason, so we're back down to 8 reliable guys if Goga proves he's deserving of minutes or just 7 if not. It's certainly doable in theory, but is an all in move that I'm not sold gets us to contender status absent a jump from someone and/or an unreasonably healthy year from everyone.


Langford is 12th on the celts
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Re: Turner to the Celtics - How? 

Post#227 » by basketballwacko2 » Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:49 pm

patman66 wrote:
basketballwacko2 wrote:
patman66 wrote:
That is something you are proud off/ the abilty to sit behind a keyboard and type insults to someone 1000 miles away?


You should hear some of the things I've said to people to their face! I'm a big guy and former kick boxer, so if I tell someone where to go and they don't like it their welcome to do something about it.

Fact is I've had about 300 death threats from internet tough guys, I don't threaten people, unless I threaten your manliness which I can't help that some people are insecure. I've always been able to cash any checks that my mouth writes.

I always say if you get offended easy you might consider putting me on ignore. :nod:


Why do you think I should hear some of those insults? I am not the one who who got upset with a little jab towards comparing wilt/turner, you were and it was not even directed to you as a person/poster but to a generic posters whom in my opinion was placing an elevated price tag on a player from a team that they watch on tv. I think your projecting, but yes, when a poster's personality is what you object to and not their content, the ignore feature should be used.



I'm not saying you should, damn don't be sensitive if you want to be snippy and make cracks like, "You pacer fans think Turner is like Wilt!" Listen if you're gonna be like that you might want to put me on ignore, I melt snowflakes with a blow torch. Not saying you're a snowflake or anything but you know if you get your feeling hurt easy, I'm not the kind a person you want to talk to.
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Re: Turner to the Celtics - How? 

Post#228 » by basketballwacko2 » Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:57 pm

Topofthekey wrote:
patman66 wrote:
basketballwacko2 wrote:
You should hear some of the things I've said to people to their face! I'm a big guy and former kick boxer, so if I tell someone where to go and they don't like it their welcome to do something about it.

Fact is I've had about 300 death threats from internet tough guys, I don't threaten people, unless I threaten your manliness which I can't help that some people are insecure. I've always been able to cash any checks that my mouth writes.

I always say if you get offended easy you might consider putting me on ignore. :nod:


Why do you think I should hear some of those insults? I am not the one who who got upset with a little jab towards comparing wilt/turner, you were and it was not even directed to you as a person/poster but to a generic posters whom in my opinion was placing an elevated price tag on a player from a team that they watch on tv. I think your projecting, but yes, when a poster's personality is what you object to and not their content, the ignore feature should be used.

Interesting

Which poster do you think placed an elevated/unrealistic price tag on Turner?

I'm trying to get a sense of what is (or isn't) considered an elevated/unrealistic price tag for Turner


I agree with you on this non of the Pacer posters said, "We want Brown, or Tatum and picks." I said particularly that I don't think the Celtics have the assets available to trade for Turner. Clearly if they offered something crazy like Brown and #14 the Pacers would probably take that, or if they offered Tatum. But that isn't happening and none of us suggested it. My position was that Gordon Hayward at $34.2 million for 21 with 1 year left is not a realistic option. We'd have to give them Turner and Lamb, Leaf to make the money work. Then as Scoot pointed out the Pacers payroll would be in the tax for 2021 at the worst possible time. Not to mention the glaring lack of depth and quality at the 4/5.

Some of these guys get married to their ideas and just don't want to accept the fact that a trade has to make sense to both teams.
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Re: Turner to the Celtics - How? 

Post#229 » by basketballwacko2 » Sat Sep 19, 2020 9:10 pm

pacers33granger wrote:
patman66 wrote:
I thought my hypothetical package of Theis, Bjelica, Jymichal Green, (both acquired by celts an sent to Indy) Langford and the 14th pick was a fair package, so I thought any poster that disagreed with me was being unreasonable. Pacer fans in this thread believe a better package could be had. Fine, I was unable to be convinced it was not a fair package. If you think something is fair and someone disagrees with you, it is reasonable to believe that the fault lays on the other side.


I may have missed it but I don't think Pacer fans (most anyways) argued against the package being fair value. It's just not the direction we want to take. It may be at a later date, but not now.

We all basically recognize that the type of player we'd want for Turner isn't out there for him, but we're more than fine keeping him.


And the big issue with that package is roster spots he's talking about it would be a 5 for 2 or 3, and age of the guys plus contract length again. Theis is the youngest of the 3 bigs at 28, and Bjelica is 32 both on 1 year deals, Green is 30 and probably has to be signed. Langford is on a rookie contract and then there's the 14th pick, which is ok but it's a gamble. It's what Scoot and I and others have been saying we don't want to split Turner or Victor up into smaller parts.

Theis is an ok player, I don't think he's got the impact that Turner does defensively and is no better on offense. Bjelica at 32 is getting up there in age. Green is a guy I'd like to sign if he's out there but why trade for him? All these guys need new contracts in a year at most, roster spot and cap issues abound.

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