What Makes Andrew Wiggins Neutral?

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Re: What Makes Andrew Wiggins Neutral? 

Post#41 » by illuminati666 » Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:49 pm

Commodor wrote:Honestly the boards just need to stop including Wiggins in trades.

GSW already sees Wiggins as neutral value. He’s their best option at SF at this time. Every article coming out Of the bay points to this.

If someone wants to offer a clear upgrade at SF for Wiggins and the picks, they’ll listen.

If not, they will stand pat. No worries on GSW’s end.

If someone can find an article. Any article. That provides a credible source saying GSW is looking to get rid of Wiggins just to get rid of Wiggins, start those trade simulations.

Until then, just focus on what the TPE or Draymond + picks.

I’m so tired of the “it’s obvious!” reasoning.

I just find it funny that when Wiggins/Dlo trade suggestions were put up in this forum you Warriors fans were freaking out about them saying you'd never take Wiggins and his horrendous contract, it would make no sense for you.

Then when you got him and people began offering different reasonable trades y'all began freaking out because now y'all love him and his contract is not so bad because apparantly there's a draught of SFs. Needless political commentary removed -- Chuck
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Re: What Makes Andrew Wiggins Neutral? 

Post#42 » by Texas Chuck » Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:50 pm

gswhoops wrote:Maybe it's just a semantic difference then (or maybe I'm just being a pedant :D ).
I agree with you that I don't remember seeing a lot of pure dumps. But obviously there have been a lot of Wiggins + picks for other teams' disposable depth players or ill-fitting vets, and one of the primary drivers of the rationale for the Warriors was dumping Wiggins.


You are correct that people are posting that as a reason and I would agree with you that it's not a compelling one for the Warriors. Their only concern should be does this trade make me more competitive. Now obviously I probably find more of those trades as improving the Warriors than some others do, because I'm convinced we have a lot of evidence that tells us Wiggins is who he is and he's very unlikely to become this 3&D wing that some others are talking themselves into him being. So I see him as a negative on the court for the Warriors and many Warriors fans see him as a positive on the court even if they understand him to be overpaid.
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Re: What Makes Andrew Wiggins Neutral? 

Post#43 » by gswhoops » Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:53 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
gswhoops wrote:Maybe it's just a semantic difference then (or maybe I'm just being a pedant :D ).
I agree with you that I don't remember seeing a lot of pure dumps. But obviously there have been a lot of Wiggins + picks for other teams' disposable depth players or ill-fitting vets, and one of the primary drivers of the rationale for the Warriors was dumping Wiggins.


You are correct that people are posting that as a reason and I would agree with you that it's not a compelling one for the Warriors. Their only concern should be does this trade make me more competitive. Now obviously I probably find more of those trades as improving the Warriors than some others do, because I'm convinced we have a lot of evidence that tells us Wiggins is who he is and he's very unlikely to become this 3&D wing that some others are talking themselves into him being. So I see him as a negative on the court for the Warriors and many Warriors fans see him as a positive on the court even if they understand him to be overpaid.

I probably come out somewhere in the middle re: Wiggins. I don't think he's going to magically turn into some turbocharged 3&D guy who hits 40% from 3 and locks down the other team's best guy. But with Steph/Klay/Draymond, we've been competitive deep into the playoffs with some absolute garbage players at the 3 (mostly when KD was hurt), so I don't buy this narrative that he's going to singlehandedly torpedo us either, which is what I think you have to believe to justify paying the premium to move him now.
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Re: What Makes Andrew Wiggins Neutral? 

Post#44 » by Texas Chuck » Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:56 pm

gswhoops wrote:, so I don't buy this narrative that he's going to singlehandedly torpedo us either, which is what I think you have to believe to justify paying the premium to move him now.



I still think there is a needle that can be thread where the Warriors can feel good about the value of turning him and picks into players, but acknowledge on this site we probably aren't likely to come to a consensus on one.
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Re: What Makes Andrew Wiggins Neutral? 

Post#45 » by 100proof » Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:00 pm

HartfordWhalers wrote:
100proof wrote:
HartfordWhalers wrote:
Assuming that is the case, I think it is a good deal for a rebuilding team.

15m -20m? gets you maybe a pick at 20-25 area usually.

Would much rather have 2 than 3 mid/late 1sts. Even this year.


I do not disagree, but what rebuilding teams have an expiring to give for that package, and which of those expirings are viable players for the Warriors?

Not many, imo.


I think finding an expiring is easier than finding one the Warriors would accept. It gets to the point Chuck is talking about above.

Ignore that GS would/might say no...
Would Detroit do Snell for Wiggins and #2? I think so.
I think Chicago would do Porter for Wiggins and #2.
I think #2 and Wiggins for Fournier gets pretty interesting actually.

But yeah, I think there isn't an issue getting expirings for Wiggins and #2... if GS wanted to do that.


Yeah, I kind of meant that with my post. There are expirings in the nba. Its finding one that actually works for them, and finding ones where the team that owns them is willing to trade it for Wiggins and #2

I think the field of options gets ALOT smaller once all things are factored in.
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Re: What Makes Andrew Wiggins Neutral? 

Post#46 » by 100proof » Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:02 pm

illuminati666 wrote:
Commodor wrote:Honestly the boards just need to stop including Wiggins in trades.

GSW already sees Wiggins as neutral value. He’s their best option at SF at this time. Every article coming out Of the bay points to this.

If someone wants to offer a clear upgrade at SF for Wiggins and the picks, they’ll listen.

If not, they will stand pat. No worries on GSW’s end.

If someone can find an article. Any article. That provides a credible source saying GSW is looking to get rid of Wiggins just to get rid of Wiggins, start those trade simulations.

Until then, just focus on what the TPE or Draymond + picks.

I’m so tired of the “it’s obvious!” reasoning.

I just find it funny that when Wiggins/Dlo trade suggestions were put up in this forum you Warriors fans were freaking out about them saying you'd never take Wiggins and his horrendous contract, it would make no sense for you.

Then when you got him and people began offering different reasonable trades y'all began freaking out because now y'all love him and his contract is not so bad because apparantly there's a draught of SFs. Needless political commentary removed -- Chuck


That is fanbases though. I remember when all raptor fans praised Demar non stop saying he was the must underrated player in the league. Then you traded him and he was a bum that was holding you all back.
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Re: What Makes Andrew Wiggins Neutral? 

Post#47 » by Texas Chuck » Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:04 pm

HartfordWhalers wrote:
HartfordWhalers wrote:
100proof wrote:
I do not disagree, but what rebuilding teams have an expiring to give for that package, and which of those expirings are viable players for the Warriors?

Not many, imo.


I think finding an expiring is easier than finding one the Warriors would accept. It gets to the point Chuck is talking about above.

Ignore that GS would/might say no...
Would Detroit do Snell for Wiggins and #2? I think so.
I think Chicago would do Porter for Wiggins and #2.
I think #2 and Wiggins for Fournier gets pretty interesting actually.

But yeah, I think there isn't an issue getting expirings for Wiggins and #2... if GS wanted to do that.


I also find a Cory Joseph/Bjelica/Holmes for Wiggins and #2 interesting. But I forgot my flame proof pants so I made sure not to post it.



Pretty sure I did that last one but with Barnes and not Joseph and I still love it for the Warriors, but also understand that fanbase hates Harrison Barnes so I knew it was doomed.

I love hte Fournier foundation, but I would "improve" it by having the Warriors draft for Orlando, sign him to the contract a la Wiggins going to Minnesota, maybe adding Paschall or the 21 GSW 1st with some reasonable protections and having Gordon join Fournier on the flight West.
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Re: What Makes Andrew Wiggins Neutral? 

Post#48 » by 100proof » Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:06 pm

derozan makes sense on the warriors
Love makes sense on the spurs
Does Wiggins make sense in Cleveland?
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Re: What Makes Andrew Wiggins Neutral? 

Post#49 » by cjmcallist » Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:13 pm

To the OP -

I think Wiggins on the court is an actively negative player. The only contribution he seems to make on a per game basis is scoring - but that only happens at below average efficiency. Commodor and I had a discussion in another thread where I pulled these numbers for the 54 SFs last season. They're listed below.

He's a below average player, younger, athletic, with a low motor (read: not a hard worker). Reminded me of Jeremy Lamb. I pulled their stats. Comparable all the way down (in percentages).

Lamb signed for 10,500,000 for 3 years. He was maybe a year older than Wiggins is now? But that seems about the right value.

So, to me, in order to take Wiggins into cap space, the picks must make up for $19m, $21m, and $23m over these next three years. I have no idea what type of picks carry that value, but... ouch.



Wiggins Ranking Amongst SF
FG% = 30th
3P% = 41th
2P% = 35th
2PA = 3rd
FTA = 6th
FT% = 48th
TRB = 40th
AST = 10th
STL = 57th
TOV = 5th <where higher is worse
PTS = 5th
ORtg = 46th
DRtg = 8th < where higher is worse
NRtg = 48th
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Re: What Makes Andrew Wiggins Neutral? 

Post#50 » by Warriors Analyst » Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:35 pm

cjmcallist wrote:To the OP -

I think Wiggins on the court is an actively negative player. The only contribution he seems to make on a per game basis is scoring - but that only happens at below average efficiency. Commodor and I had a discussion in another thread where I pulled these numbers for the 54 SFs last season. They're listed below.

He's a below average player, younger, athletic, with a low motor (read: not a hard worker). Reminded me of Jeremy Lamb. I pulled their stats. Comparable all the way down (in percentages).

Lamb signed for 10,500,000 for 3 years. He was maybe a year older than Wiggins is now? But that seems about the right value.

So, to me, in order to take Wiggins into cap space, the picks must make up for $19m, $21m, and $23m over these next three years. I have no idea what type of picks carry that value, but... ouch.



Wiggins Ranking Amongst SF
FG% = 30th
3P% = 41th
2P% = 35th
2PA = 3rd
FTA = 6th
FT% = 48th
TRB = 40th
AST = 10th
STL = 57th
TOV = 5th <where higher is worse
PTS = 5th
ORtg = 46th
DRtg = 8th < where higher is worse
NRtg = 48th


Two things stick out to me that are interesting as a Warriors fan: Wiggins' ability to get to the line and his AST ranking. Both of those numbers should increase in the Warriors system. I don't trust him to ever become more than a 37% three point shooter because of the knuckling spin on his shot, but his efficiency on 2PA% will probably jump some and he'll rack up drive and kick assists when he plays with Steph and Klay.

I recently took a lot at Wiggins' stats vs Caris LaVert's and they're quite similar to each other. LaVert's highest TS% came as a rookie when he shot 56%. Since then he's done 52%, 51%, and 51%. Wiggins career TS: 52%, 54%, 53%, 50%, 49%, and 54%. Assist numbers are pretty similar with a slight advantage for LaVert, same with 3 point shooting.

But I think it's perfectly reasonable that Wiggins could get up to league average TS% next year. He shot 51% on 2's in a small sample size, but he'll have lots more opportunities to score on cuts and with clear driving lanes. If we look at the Barnes comparison, Barnes shot 53% TS as a rookie, 49% as a sophomore and then jumped up to 57% in his first year in Kerr's system. If Wiggins gets only half of that TS% increase, a 4% jump, Wiggins is up to 58% TS. Assuming he stays more or less in line with his career counting stats, his three point shot stays the same, and the main improvement for him is higher efficiency on 2PA, Wiggins could average something like 18/5/4 on 58% TS. Definitely not worth 35$ million a year, and you won't find any Warriors fan arguing that, but not a player I feel especially compelled to use assets to dump.

So what does that player get on the open market? 18/5/4 on 58% TS? $20 million? How would other people's valuations of Wiggins change if that's what he puts up next year?
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Re: What Makes Andrew Wiggins Neutral? 

Post#51 » by HartfordWhalers » Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:39 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
HartfordWhalers wrote:
HartfordWhalers wrote:
I think finding an expiring is easier than finding one the Warriors would accept. It gets to the point Chuck is talking about above.

Ignore that GS would/might say no...
Would Detroit do Snell for Wiggins and #2? I think so.
I think Chicago would do Porter for Wiggins and #2.
I think #2 and Wiggins for Fournier gets pretty interesting actually.

But yeah, I think there isn't an issue getting expirings for Wiggins and #2... if GS wanted to do that.


I also find a Cory Joseph/Bjelica/Holmes for Wiggins and #2 interesting. But I forgot my flame proof pants so I made sure not to post it.



Pretty sure I did that last one but with Barnes and not Joseph and I still love it for the Warriors, but also understand that fanbase hates Harrison Barnes so I knew it was doomed.

I love hte Fournier foundation, but I would "improve" it by having the Warriors draft for Orlando, sign him to the contract a la Wiggins going to Minnesota, maybe adding Paschall or the 21 GSW 1st with some reasonable protections and having Gordon join Fournier on the flight West.


I think Joseph is in some ways more interesting as it makes the entire offer (basically) expiring.
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Re: What Makes Andrew Wiggins Neutral? 

Post#52 » by Texas Chuck » Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:41 pm

HartfordWhalers wrote:I think Joseph is in some ways more interesting as it makes the entire offer (basically) expiring.


It's definitely more interesting in the context of this thread.

It's less interesting in terms of a trade I think the Warriors should make. They need guys who can help and Joseph largely cannot.
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Re: What Makes Andrew Wiggins Neutral? 

Post#53 » by Commodor » Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:45 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
Resistance wrote:
Commodor wrote:Honestly the boards just need to stop including Wiggins in trades.



As long as the conversation is civil, I don't understand why you should object to discussions about Wiggins.

.


Don't worry despite multiple attempts to do so, he does not get to control the discussion. As I tell any poster who complains about deals they don't like involving specific players--just don't open the thread. It shouldn't impact him in any way if others discuss the topic.


I am not trying to control a conversation. I am trying to highlight there is a dramatic gap in valuation in what other teams expect to pay for Wiggins and what GSW *appears* to be willing to give up to move him. The conversations that ensued between many posters, not even including myself, have devolved into not-so-civil discourse.

There was an unofficial moratorium on Giannis trades on these boards for a similar reason, and I do not really see how there's a significant difference between "Giannis is leaving Milwaukee so give him up for a steep discount" and "Wiggins is expensive and bad so you must give up your picks for a steep discount" which seems to be the basis of most trades around these two players.
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Re: What Makes Andrew Wiggins Neutral? 

Post#54 » by Texas Chuck » Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:52 pm

Commodor wrote:
There was an unofficial moratorium on Giannis trades on these boards for a similar reason, and I do not really see how there's a significant difference between "Giannis is leaving Milwaukee so give him up for a steep discount" and "Wiggins is expensive and bad so you must give up your picks for a steep discount" which seems to be the basis of most trades around these two players.


The board self-policing itself and never posting deals for Lebron or Luka or Steph or Tatum or Trae or Ja etc because we all collectively know they aren't getting traded is nothing like you literally posting the board needs to stop posting Wiggins deals.

Giannis is now getting deals posted about him because of the past 2 years of disappointing playoff runs and some posters belief in "get something" rather than letting him walk. As a poster I think there is 0.0% chance the Bucks trade him, but as a Mod I don't censor those who want to explore the topic.

I'm not going to censor Wiggins trades because you don't like the value other posters assign to him. Seems fair, no? You have the ability to simply not open the thread if you don't want to engage.
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Re: What Makes Andrew Wiggins Neutral? 

Post#55 » by illuminati666 » Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:59 pm

illuminati666 wrote:
Commodor wrote:Honestly the boards just need to stop including Wiggins in trades.

GSW already sees Wiggins as neutral value. He’s their best option at SF at this time. Every article coming out Of the bay points to this.

If someone wants to offer a clear upgrade at SF for Wiggins and the picks, they’ll listen.

If not, they will stand pat. No worries on GSW’s end.

If someone can find an article. Any article. That provides a credible source saying GSW is looking to get rid of Wiggins just to get rid of Wiggins, start those trade simulations.

Until then, just focus on what the TPE or Draymond + picks.

I’m so tired of the “it’s obvious!” reasoning.

I just find it funny that when Wiggins/Dlo trade suggestions were put up in this forum you Warriors fans were freaking out about them saying you'd never take Wiggins and his horrendous contract, it would make no sense for you.

Then when you got him and people began offering different reasonable trades y'all began freaking out because now y'all love him and his contract is not so bad because apparantly there's a draught of SFs. Needless political commentary removed -- Chuck

Chuck, but it was mild and FUNNY political commentary
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Re: What Makes Andrew Wiggins Neutral? 

Post#56 » by BayWarrior » Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:00 pm

As a GS fan I think its a positional issue that has GS posters hesitant to trade Wiggins. GS has two holes in the lineup SF and C, Wiggins fills the SF hole as a capable yet overpaid starter. He doesn't need to be the 1st or 2nd option on offense, just able to play some D, Drive to the rack and hit a few open shots. Are we optimistic he can fill that role? sure why not.

When Bringing up the Dlo trade, I for one was against Wiggins as well but remember GS also got the 2021 1st and wanted his large salary in case they need a large salary filler to pull off a trade for a superstar. I don't think GS is interested in salary relief, they dealt with that last year.

With the need for a C, why would GS use the draft pick and Wiggins for salary relief or a minor upgrade at C or SF? They could draft Wiseman (with high hopes) and have a decent starting 5 with the Minny 2021 pick still in hand. Now if they can get a big upgrade at C with the 2nd pick and the 2021 pick or SF with Wiggins and the 2021 pick then I would personally be interested. I don't speak for all GS fans this is just my perspective about the value of Wiggins for GS.
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Re: What Makes Andrew Wiggins Neutral? 

Post#57 » by jbk1234 » Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:02 pm

100proof wrote:derozan makes sense on the warriors
Love makes sense on the spurs
Does Wiggins make sense in Cleveland?


No. It's been proposed a hundred times and just no. We've spent four first round picks on guards/wings and we're not taking away their minutes/touches so Wiggins can have them. It doesn't make sense in terms of on-the-court value and it doesn't make sense in terms of team building.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: What Makes Andrew Wiggins Neutral? 

Post#58 » by illuminati666 » Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:02 pm

100proof wrote:
illuminati666 wrote:
Commodor wrote:Honestly the boards just need to stop including Wiggins in trades.

GSW already sees Wiggins as neutral value. He’s their best option at SF at this time. Every article coming out Of the bay points to this.

If someone wants to offer a clear upgrade at SF for Wiggins and the picks, they’ll listen.

If not, they will stand pat. No worries on GSW’s end.

If someone can find an article. Any article. That provides a credible source saying GSW is looking to get rid of Wiggins just to get rid of Wiggins, start those trade simulations.

Until then, just focus on what the TPE or Draymond + picks.

I’m so tired of the “it’s obvious!” reasoning.

I just find it funny that when Wiggins/Dlo trade suggestions were put up in this forum you Warriors fans were freaking out about them saying you'd never take Wiggins and his horrendous contract, it would make no sense for you.

Then when you got him and people began offering different reasonable trades y'all began freaking out because now y'all love him and his contract is not so bad because apparantly there's a draught of SFs. Needless political commentary removed -- Chuck


That is fanbases though. I remember when all raptor fans praised Demar non stop saying he was the must underrated player in the league. Then you traded him and he was a bum that was holding you all back.

Not at all, by the end of our 2018 run most Raptors fans were rly against Derozan, ya in 2016 we were raving about the whole team, but by the time he was traded, although we still loved and appreciated him as a Raptor, most wanted him gone
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Re: What Makes Andrew Wiggins Neutral? 

Post#59 » by Commodor » Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:04 pm

shrink wrote:
Commodor wrote:Here's seven different articles where GSW coaches and execs are quoted as to why they are excited about Wiggins. His fit is astronomically better than Russell's was...

And guess what? You could find seven different articles saying how excited they were about getting Russell too. They would say things like, “don’t worry about his fit with Curry,” and “Look what a great offball guard he is!” Did you apply the same standard last year, and use this as evidence that Russell wouldn’t be traded?

I think you are drinking the Koolade a bit on Wiggins, now that he is wearing a Warriors uniform.


A trade I proposed last offseason which got a little attention on these boards was we should trade Russell for Wiggins, and 2 1sts (#17 and 2021). I admit I did try to route that package to Toronto for Kawhi, but that was pie in the sky dreaming. I had hopes for a better SF because that was GSW's need.

Again, I am not trying to argue Wiggins is an elite option but at this time he is the best option for GSW. Moving him and picks at a negative doesn't make sense given the current actions and rumors leaking out of GSW.
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Re: What Makes Andrew Wiggins Neutral? 

Post#60 » by Texas Chuck » Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:05 pm

illuminati666 wrote:Chuck, but it was mild and FUNNY political commentary


I'm not going to comment on its level or effectiveness as a joke. It's a unnecessary derail at a time when this country is divided enough. No big deal, no warning, no lecture. Just we aren't going to do it for reasons I trust you understand.
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