Bucks/Hawks/Magic

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Re: Bucks/Hawks/Magic 

Post#21 » by Baddy Chuck » Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:45 am

Buzzard wrote:
Baddy Chuck wrote:To me this is at best shuffling decks chairs (on a 70 win pace team) while not solving any of our issues as a team and giving up the best player. I'd pass.

I have been waiting on a Bucks fan to speak up. I think its a good shuffle and gives Bud a better performing center. I think one thing that gets lost here is Bud's past. He came up with Duncan and the Spurs. Then turned a pretty average Hawks team with Horford and Milsap into a pretty good one.

I think Vucevic would fit in well with Bud and I am not saying Middleton doesn't. But with Fournier, Ross, and Huerter he still gets plenty of firepower to use in his rotations.

I think the pieces fit fine (honestly though I don't think the Giannis/Vuc pairing is as good as Giannis/Midds) but as I stated I think this team has obvious problems and this solves none of them while trading our best assets. It's going all in with virtually no upside and hoping that at best a different look is the solution.
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Re: Bucks/Hawks/Magic 

Post#22 » by Buzzard » Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:49 am

Ducklett wrote:
Buzzard wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
The idea is right. However, the value is way off.

This draft isn’t good and you are including Orlando’s entire offense into this transaction for a bunch of nothing. They would at least want one player of value in exchange for 3.

DDV could be included but you are talking about a offense that has been ranked 23rd, 22nd, and 25th the past three seasons. You clear over 30 million in cap, make the picks at 6, 15, 24, sign a player or two on short contracts, see what happens. Hell if you clear enough, chase VanFleet and see what happens.

Your team reminds me of the Hawks with Josh Smith and Josh Childress. Hawks fans way over valued them and until they were cut loose, they never did anything in the playoffs. But they did break .500 more than just once.


I understand your position and I think this is the kind of direction the Magic should go, but by your own admission this draft sucks, why would you want 3 picks in a bad draft? Couldn't the Magic wait to the deadline and try for some 2021 picks?

Absolutely but they risk what teams will be able to make it work?

1 - 6th picks and higher do not get traded easily. A lot of the projected lottery teams will not move them and some will want protection added.

2 - This is 56 million in contracts being moved by Orlando and 52.6 by the Bucks. That just does not grow on trees. Maybe the right partners can be found and maybe they cannot. Atlanta will most certainly have spent their cap by then.

3 - Atlanta is a unique lottery team as they want to get out of tank mode. Some of the lottery teams at the break will not in that position. In other words taking on 45.6 million a year for Middleton and Lopez the next three seasons may not be the direction they want to take.
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Re: Bucks/Hawks/Magic 

Post#23 » by Ducklett » Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:55 am

Buzzard wrote:
Ducklett wrote:
Buzzard wrote:DDV could be included but you are talking about a offense that has been ranked 23rd, 22nd, and 25th the past three seasons. You clear over 30 million in cap, make the picks at 6, 15, 24, sign a player or two on short contracts, see what happens. Hell if you clear enough, chase VanFleet and see what happens.

Your team reminds me of the Hawks with Josh Smith and Josh Childress. Hawks fans way over valued them and until they were cut loose, they never did anything in the playoffs. But they did break .500 more than just once.


I understand your position and I think this is the kind of direction the Magic should go, but by your own admission this draft sucks, why would you want 3 picks in a bad draft? Couldn't the Magic wait to the deadline and try for some 2021 picks?

Absolutely but they risk what teams will be able to make it work?

1 - 6th picks and higher do not get traded easily. A lot of the projected lottery teams will not move them and some will want protection added.

2 - This is 56 million in contracts being moved by Orlando and 52.6 by the Bucks. That just does not grow on trees. Maybe the right partners can be found and maybe they cannot. Atlanta will most certainly have spent their cap by then.

3 - Atlanta is a unique lottery team as they want to get out of tank mode. Some of the lottery teams at the break will not in that position. In other words taking on 45.6 million a year for Middleton and Lopez the next three seasons may not be the direction they want to take.


I read a couple of the draft heads suggesting that 6-8 in this draft would struggle to be lotto or would be late lotto in 2021, so I don't know that getting 6 in this draft is some lucky situation. There is a real reason that GSW and MIN are trying to trade 1 and 2 and why even teams like the Knicks at 8 are rumored to be trying to move down. That is why I think the risk isn't that big of a deal in waiting for the deadline for better deals, maybe having these players split into different moves instead of one big one.

If the right kind of deals come along in this draft that make sense, i'm for it. I just don't think you trade 3/5ths of your starting line up (one of which who has been an allstar and still plays at that level) for what would be 12-16 in a normal draft.
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Re: Bucks/Hawks/Magic 

Post#24 » by Buzzard » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:11 am

Ducklett wrote:
Buzzard wrote:
Ducklett wrote:
I understand your position and I think this is the kind of direction the Magic should go, but by your own admission this draft sucks, why would you want 3 picks in a bad draft? Couldn't the Magic wait to the deadline and try for some 2021 picks?

Absolutely but they risk what teams will be able to make it work?

1 - 6th picks and higher do not get traded easily. A lot of the projected lottery teams will not move them and some will want protection added.

2 - This is 56 million in contracts being moved by Orlando and 52.6 by the Bucks. That just does not grow on trees. Maybe the right partners can be found and maybe they cannot. Atlanta will most certainly have spent their cap by then.

3 - Atlanta is a unique lottery team as they want to get out of tank mode. Some of the lottery teams at the break will not in that position. In other words taking on 45.6 million a year for Middleton and Lopez the next three seasons may not be the direction they want to take.


I read a couple of the draft heads suggesting that 6-8 in this draft would struggle to be lotto or would be late lotto in 2021, so I don't know that getting 6 in this draft is some lucky situation. There is a real reason that GSW and MIN are trying to trade 1 and 2 and why even teams like the Knicks at 8 are rumored to be trying to move down. That is why I think the risk isn't that big of a deal in waiting for the deadline for better deals, maybe having these players split into different moves instead of one big one.

If the right kind of deals come along in this draft that make sense, i'm for it. I just don't think you trade 3/5ths of your starting line up (one of which who has been an allstar and still plays at that level) for what would be 12-16 in a normal draft.

I think calling #6 the same as 12 - 16 a little dramatic; just because there is no generational player seen at #1 and #2 as in some previous years.

But if that is your take, I am not arguing with it. I will just say its not mine. Which is why I only want the Hawks to trade down if they get a shoe in impact player plus a pick.

The latest rumor for the Knicks is they like Okoro at 8.
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Re: Bucks/Hawks/Magic 

Post#25 » by Ducklett » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:44 am

Buzzard wrote:
Ducklett wrote:
Buzzard wrote:Absolutely but they risk what teams will be able to make it work?

1 - 6th picks and higher do not get traded easily. A lot of the projected lottery teams will not move them and some will want protection added.

2 - This is 56 million in contracts being moved by Orlando and 52.6 by the Bucks. That just does not grow on trees. Maybe the right partners can be found and maybe they cannot. Atlanta will most certainly have spent their cap by then.

3 - Atlanta is a unique lottery team as they want to get out of tank mode. Some of the lottery teams at the break will not in that position. In other words taking on 45.6 million a year for Middleton and Lopez the next three seasons may not be the direction they want to take.


I read a couple of the draft heads suggesting that 6-8 in this draft would struggle to be lotto or would be late lotto in 2021, so I don't know that getting 6 in this draft is some lucky situation. There is a real reason that GSW and MIN are trying to trade 1 and 2 and why even teams like the Knicks at 8 are rumored to be trying to move down. That is why I think the risk isn't that big of a deal in waiting for the deadline for better deals, maybe having these players split into different moves instead of one big one.

If the right kind of deals come along in this draft that make sense, i'm for it. I just don't think you trade 3/5ths of your starting line up (one of which who has been an allstar and still plays at that level) for what would be 12-16 in a normal draft.

I think calling #6 the same as 12 - 16 a little dramatic; just because there is no generational player seen at #1 and #2 as in some previous years.

But if that is your take, I am not arguing with it. I will just say its not mine. Which is why I only want the Hawks to trade down if they get a shoe in impact player plus a pick.

The latest rumor for the Knicks is they like Okoro at 8.


Sorry if there was confusion: that isn't my take. I was listening to sports radio and they had some draft talking heads discussing the prospects in the 2020 draft and where they would put them on their big boards.
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Re: Bucks/Hawks/Magic 

Post#26 » by Buzzard » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:53 am

Ducklett wrote:
Buzzard wrote:
Ducklett wrote:
I read a couple of the draft heads suggesting that 6-8 in this draft would struggle to be lotto or would be late lotto in 2021, so I don't know that getting 6 in this draft is some lucky situation. There is a real reason that GSW and MIN are trying to trade 1 and 2 and why even teams like the Knicks at 8 are rumored to be trying to move down. That is why I think the risk isn't that big of a deal in waiting for the deadline for better deals, maybe having these players split into different moves instead of one big one.

If the right kind of deals come along in this draft that make sense, i'm for it. I just don't think you trade 3/5ths of your starting line up (one of which who has been an allstar and still plays at that level) for what would be 12-16 in a normal draft.

I think calling #6 the same as 12 - 16 a little dramatic; just because there is no generational player seen at #1 and #2 as in some previous years.

But if that is your take, I am not arguing with it. I will just say its not mine. Which is why I only want the Hawks to trade down if they get a shoe in impact player plus a pick.

The latest rumor for the Knicks is they like Okoro at 8.


Sorry if there was confusion: that isn't my take. I was listening to sports radio and they had some draft talking heads discussing the prospects in the 2020 draft and where they would put them on their big boards.

I definitely think there will be a star to be had at 6. If the Hawks pick him or not is another story.
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Re: Bucks/Hawks/Magic 

Post#27 » by mattg » Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:04 am

As a Bucks fan that definitely isn't very high on Middleton I wouldn't even consider this.
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Re: Bucks/Hawks/Magic 

Post#28 » by zaymon » Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:52 am

We know what kind of players will be available at #6 this year and most of them are not even a sure starter level contributors. I hope we are past the time when we traded our players for fraction of.their value just to get worse.
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Re: Bucks/Hawks/Magic 

Post#29 » by cookiies » Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:54 am

bucks : yes or no (i love idea but a little bit of a gamble)

hawks : yes

magic : no
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Re: Bucks/Hawks/Magic 

Post#30 » by Buzzard » Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:57 am

zaymon wrote:We know what kind of players will be available at #6 this year and most of them are not even a sure starter level contributors. I hope we are past the time when we traded our players for fraction of.their value just to get worse.

I understand the Serge, Oladipo, Sabonis trades were bad for fan moral. I don't think this is on the same level. Ross, Fournier, and Vucevic are all 8 and 9 year vets. Its not like they are trading away their promising youth and picks. It is pretty much the opposite of that. It is the start of a rebuild; they get picks and cap space. Or they stand pat and hope to break .500 for the 2nd time in nine years.

I really wish someone would find me these scouting reports that say Killian, Okongwu, Haliburton, Avdija, Vassell, Okoro, etc are not solid prospects to at least be starters. I see plenty of those hot takes here; but I do not see them anywhere else.I think the Magic rebuild is inevitable but putting it off another season is not going to hurt anything.
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Re: Bucks/Hawks/Magic 

Post#31 » by Buzzard » Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:16 am

mattg wrote:As a Bucks fan that definitely isn't very high on Middleton I wouldn't even consider this.

We will soon find out how bad the Brogdon choice and early playoff exit hurt the Bucks in Giannis eyes. If he does not accept the super max extension right away, I think they need do something that changes their team makeup for the better.

33 years old Wesley Mathews, 33 years old Marvin Williams, and 27 years old Pat Connaughton is not exactly the household names most playoff teams want to carry their bench in a championship run.
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Re: Bucks/Hawks/Magic 

Post#32 » by VDT » Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:44 am

It looks horrendous for the Bucks as it would make sure that Giannis leaves. Middleton is not the problem and he should be traded only for an upgrade.
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Re: Bucks/Hawks/Magic 

Post#33 » by Buzzard » Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:51 am

VDT wrote:It looks horrendous for the Bucks as it would make sure that Giannis leaves. Middleton is not the problem and he should be traded only for an upgrade.

I like the plan, what is it? Who do you think they could include with Middleton to get a upgrade? Who would that upgrade be?
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Re: Bucks/Hawks/Magic 

Post#34 » by VDT » Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:34 pm

Buzzard wrote:
VDT wrote:It looks horrendous for the Bucks as it would make sure that Giannis leaves. Middleton is not the problem and he should be traded only for an upgrade.

I like the plan, what is it? Who do you think they could include with Middleton to get a upgrade? Who would that upgrade be?


I am not a Bucks n and i dont have a plan. But what they need is to get a guy like Middleton, that can create in the half court, but better. If they cant find that guy or they cant find a guy like Middleton to add to the Giannis/Middleton core they should just run it back, try to get better roleplayers and hope that Giannis will further improve and that they will have more luck next year. Breaking Middleton into lesser pieces does nothing for them and is probably going to lead to Giannis asking out. Their problem was not so much depth but that they lack a half court guy, other than Middleton who is relatively limited. Trading Middleton for these pieces does nothing for them.
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Re: Bucks/Hawks/Magic 

Post#35 » by HartfordWhalers » Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:58 pm

MagicMatic wrote:The idea is right. However, the value is way off.


Agreed. No way those Orlando players get a pick as high as 6, and then a 2nd 1st on top of it. This is absolutely way more value than orlando could possibly expect from those players, and reading how it isn't enough makes me think how ingrained the value of home team players can become without some rationality check.
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Re: Bucks/Hawks/Magic 

Post#36 » by Ducklett » Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:38 pm

HartfordWhalers wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:The idea is right. However, the value is way off.


Agreed. No way those Orlando players get a pick as high as 6, and then a 2nd 1st on top of it. This is absolutely way more value than orlando could possibly expect from those players, and reading how it isn't enough makes me think how ingrained the value of home team players can become without some rationality check.


You could be right. How would you rate those 3 Magic players' value?
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Re: Bucks/Hawks/Magic 

Post#37 » by HartfordWhalers » Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:48 pm

Ducklett wrote:
HartfordWhalers wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:The idea is right. However, the value is way off.


Agreed. No way those Orlando players get a pick as high as 6, and then a 2nd 1st on top of it. This is absolutely way more value than orlando could possibly expect from those players, and reading how it isn't enough makes me think how ingrained the value of home team players can become without some rationality check.


You could be right. How would you rate those 3 Magic players' value?


I have the most useful valuable of them as Fournier, although if he is really so valuable that increases the chance that, despite the cap this year, he opts out.
I don’t have any of the three as worth a top 10 pick. And then maybe Orlando keeps slogging away in the 7th 8th seed spot.
I will try and post and Orlando ‘fire sale’ thread shortly. Let me look for best fits.
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Re: Bucks/Hawks/Magic 

Post#38 » by MagicMatic » Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:08 pm

HartfordWhalers wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:The idea is right. However, the value is way off.


Agreed. No way those Orlando players get a pick as high as 6, and then a 2nd 1st on top of it. This is absolutely way more value than orlando could possibly expect from those players, and reading how it isn't enough makes me think how ingrained the value of home team players can become without some rationality check.


I don’t care what the pick #’s are. This draft is terrible.

I’m not even disagreeing with the idea that Orlando shouldn’t rebuild instead of treadmilling. To sell the farm on this draft??? No thanks.
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Re: Bucks/Hawks/Magic 

Post#39 » by Godaddycurse » Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:48 pm

MagicMatic wrote:
HartfordWhalers wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:The idea is right. However, the value is way off.


Agreed. No way those Orlando players get a pick as high as 6, and then a 2nd 1st on top of it. This is absolutely way more value than orlando could possibly expect from those players, and reading how it isn't enough makes me think how ingrained the value of home team players can become without some rationality check.


I don’t care what the pick #’s are. This draft is terrible.

I’m not even disagreeing with the idea that Orlando shouldn’t rebuild instead of treadmilling. To sell the farm on this draft??? No thanks.


Actually by selling off now and tanking properly you get much better picks in the 2021 and 2022 draft. Or you can keep loitering in the teens for another few years..
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Re: Bucks/Hawks/Magic 

Post#40 » by Ducklett » Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:42 pm

Godaddycurse wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
HartfordWhalers wrote:
Agreed. No way those Orlando players get a pick as high as 6, and then a 2nd 1st on top of it. This is absolutely way more value than orlando could possibly expect from those players, and reading how it isn't enough makes me think how ingrained the value of home team players can become without some rationality check.


I don’t care what the pick #’s are. This draft is terrible.

I’m not even disagreeing with the idea that Orlando shouldn’t rebuild instead of treadmilling. To sell the farm on this draft??? No thanks.


Actually by selling off now and tanking properly you get much better picks in the 2021 and 2022 draft. Or you can keep loitering in the teens for another few years..


I think it is fair to say that the Magic community of RealGM is split somewhere down the middle (60-40 to 50-50 in that range) of not-tanking versus tanking. I am in the "tanking" side personally. Don't paint us Magic fans all the same please :D

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