Orlando/GS (yes it involves #2)

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Orlando/GS (yes it involves #2) 

Post#1 » by HartfordWhalers » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:00 pm

Premise is the Isaac injury -- and uncertain home crowds -- is a good enough cause to hit the refresh button, miss the playoffs, and tank for the '21 draft. Assuming that premise, I'm going to post a couple of Orlando threads.

Assumes Fournier opt in.

The mega deal:
Orlando out/GS in: AG + Fournier
Orlando in/GS out: Wiggins #2, (and Minnesota 2nd in #21?).

Why?
Orlando: Best rebuilding asset out there. Not a huge FA draw as is.
GS: Gets 2 starter level players for Wiggins, improving the team in the right now. Curry/Klay/Fournier/AG/Green is the type of lineup it enables, as well as trying AG at center in an alternate death lineup, or going big etc.
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Re: Orlando/GS (yes it involves #2) 

Post#2 » by NYG » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:09 pm

HartfordWhalers wrote:Premise is the Isaac injury -- and uncertain home crowds -- is a good enough cause to hit the refresh button, miss the playoffs, and tank for the '21 draft. Assuming that premise, I'm going to post a couple of Orlando threads.

Assumes Fournier opt in.

The mega deal:
Orlando out/GS in: AG + Fournier
Orlando in/GS out: Wiggins #2, (and Minnesota 2nd in #21?).

Why?
Orlando: Best rebuilding asset out there. Not a huge FA draw as is.
GS: Gets 2 starter level players for Wiggins, improving the team in the right now. Curry/Klay/Fournier/AG/Green is the type of lineup it enables, as well as trying AG at center in an alternate death lineup, or going big etc.


I think it's solid, but I also see Warriors fans preferring Wiseman and Wiggins to Gordon and Fournier. The long-term ceiling of Wiseman/Wiggins is much higher than Gordon/Fournier.
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Re: Orlando/GS (yes it involves #2) 

Post#3 » by HartfordWhalers » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:11 pm

NYG wrote:
HartfordWhalers wrote:Premise is the Isaac injury -- and uncertain home crowds -- is a good enough cause to hit the refresh button, miss the playoffs, and tank for the '21 draft. Assuming that premise, I'm going to post a couple of Orlando threads.

Assumes Fournier opt in.

The mega deal:
Orlando out/GS in: AG + Fournier
Orlando in/GS out: Wiggins #2, (and Minnesota 2nd in #21?).

Why?
Orlando: Best rebuilding asset out there. Not a huge FA draw as is.
GS: Gets 2 starter level players for Wiggins, improving the team in the right now. Curry/Klay/Fournier/AG/Green is the type of lineup it enables, as well as trying AG at center in an alternate death lineup, or going big etc.


I think it's solid, but I also see Warriors fans preferring Wiseman and Wiggins to Gordon and Fournier. The long-term ceiling of Wiseman/Wiggins is much higher than Gordon/Fournier.


I agree with that long term ceiling. It is trading that ceiling for a much much higher current level, while Curry/Klay/Dray are all still in their window. Which I think is the type of call that you should make if you have a real shot.
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Re: Orlando/GS (yes it involves #2) 

Post#4 » by jpengland » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:11 pm

I quite like this for both teams.

If GSW could turn their other bits and pieces into a wing defender they could be very, very, very good.
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Re: Orlando/GS (yes it involves #2) 

Post#5 » by Buzzard » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:15 pm

GSW is all over this and I do not think Orlando is. A good reset usually does not include adding three years of bad money. GSW is probably stuck with Wiggins unless they give up the Timberwolves 2021 pick as well.
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Re: Orlando/GS (yes it involves #2) 

Post#6 » by Godaddycurse » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:18 pm

Buzzard wrote:GSW is all over this and I do not think Orlando is. A good reset usually does not include adding three years of bad money. GSW is probably stuck with Wiggins unless they give up the Timberwolves 2021 pick as well.


The intetesting thing with orlando is they already have a few other 3 yr deals left though in ross and vucevic. Adding wiggins doesnt impact.their timeline that much jn that regard
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Re: Orlando/GS (yes it involves #2) 

Post#7 » by Rudruff » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:19 pm

I could see GS doing this. It doesn't leave a hole at 3. It adds a couple of vets that are still younger than the core. Fournier looks good from 3, AG is a big wing defender that the team will need late in the playoffs. And it doesn't ask for two first to get off Wiggins contract (which I think kills most deals being proposed).
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Re: Orlando/GS (yes it involves #2) 

Post#8 » by eminence » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:23 pm

Don't like it it for GS, not a fan of Gordon/Fournier.
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Re: Orlando/GS (yes it involves #2) 

Post#9 » by Buzzard » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:27 pm

Godaddycurse wrote:
Buzzard wrote:GSW is all over this and I do not think Orlando is. A good reset usually does not include adding three years of bad money. GSW is probably stuck with Wiggins unless they give up the Timberwolves 2021 pick as well.


The intetesting thing with orlando is they already have a few other 3 yr deals left though in ross and vucevic. Adding wiggins doesnt impact.their timeline that much jn that regard

I think moving off those deals should be part of the long term reset. Vucevic should be able to get a 1st and moving Ross could get one. The Lakers, Clippers, Nuggets, Jazz, 76ers, Bucks could all use a sharp shooter making 37.5 for the next three years.

I like the Magic's players; but as a group they make up a ho hum team.
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Re: Orlando/GS (yes it involves #2) 

Post#10 » by shrink » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:29 pm

If ORL decides to rebuild, I like the concept. I would want a bit more for ORL.

Wiggins salary is less destructive to a tanking team. A competitive team needs to squeeze out as much production per dollar as possible to outperform other competitive teams, who are doing the same. This makes him more valuable to ORL than GSW (or less negative to ORL if you prefer), and makes him a good trade candidate. It’s still a lot of money for the Magic to swallow.

For GSW, they need to decide if they can get a star for #2, MIN 1st, and some iteration of the $17 mil Iguodala TPE. If they can’t, this deal certainly makes them stronger. Is it strong enough to win a championship?
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Re: Orlando/GS (yes it involves #2) 

Post#11 » by zimpy27 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:33 pm

What about Vucevic, Ross and Fournier for Wiggins, Looney, 17m TPE, pick 2, MIN 2022 FRP

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Re: Orlando/GS (yes it involves #2) 

Post#12 » by Buzzard » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:44 pm

shrink wrote:I would want more if I was ORL, but if they are rebuilding, I like the concept.

Wiggins salary is less destructive to a tanking team. A competitive team needs to squeeze out as much production per dollar as possible to outperform other competitive teams, who are doing the same. This makes him more valuable to ORL than GSW (or less negative to ORL if you prefer), and makes him a good trade candidate. It’s still a lot of money for the Magic to swallow.

Agree with Orlando needing more. Wiggins is easily worth a first coming back by himself. Throw in two decent role players and that is worth another first.

Not so much with this. I think the premise that long term bad salaries is less detrimental to bad teams is wrong. If you look at teams like 76ers paying Tobias all that money but still compete. The Celtics paying Hayward all that money to play part time but they still make conference finals. The two primary reasons bad teams stay in lottery mode for so long is the bad contracts they have and the bad picks they make.

Bad teams need the flexibility to add a one year salary dump and a pick. Long term bad contracts take a lot of that flexibility away.
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Re: Orlando/GS (yes it involves #2) 

Post#13 » by HartfordWhalers » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:48 pm

Buzzard wrote:The two primary reasons bad teams stay in lottery mode for so long is the bad contracts they have and the bad picks they make.

Bad teams need the flexibility to add a one year salary dump and a pick. Long term bad contracts take a lot of that flexibility away.


Fully disagree.

Teams that fail to accurately assess where they are is one of the biggest reasons why bad teams stay bad. Continually doing one year deals when they need a 3-4 year bottom out; but selling themselves that in just a year they will be better, they already are better and just need Dedmon type roll players etc.

But yeah, drafting say Bagley instead of Luka can definitely be reason for teams staying bad. I would have the draft as one of the top two. But absolutely not retaining flexibility. These bad teams could get better if they accepted being bad, lost some flexibility when paid to do so, and thought about long term asset acquisition instead of flexibility.
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Re: Orlando/GS (yes it involves #2) 

Post#14 » by HartfordWhalers » Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:04 pm

Buzzard wrote:Ross could get one. The Lakers, Clippers, Nuggets, Jazz, 76ers, Bucks could all use a sharp shooter making 37.5 for the next three years.


Philly requires Richardson outgoing so that is a no.
LAL would require Green, and personally I see Green/#27 for Ross as something LAL says no to. Maybe though?
Don't seethe minutes to make it worth the cap hit in Boston.
Clippers would require outgoing someone at least as useful, I'm not seeing it, as they need more playmaking not stand off shooting.
Nuggets I don't see it, would rather stick with Barton and certainly not worth a 1st more.
Utah could be Ed Davis and Tony Bradley, but would they pay a 1st? I don't think so.
I don't see him as the solution in Milwaukee either (same reason as LAC), but guaranteeing Ersan, 1st and DJ Wilson does it.

Yeah, I've been trying for an hour to find a realistic Ross trade that get Orlando good assets and I'm not convinced of one.
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Re: Orlando/GS (yes it involves #2) 

Post#15 » by Buzzard » Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:07 pm

HartfordWhalers wrote:
Buzzard wrote:The two primary reasons bad teams stay in lottery mode for so long is the bad contracts they have and the bad picks they make.

Bad teams need the flexibility to add a one year salary dump and a pick. Long term bad contracts take a lot of that flexibility away.


Fully disagree.

Teams that fail to accurately assess where they are is one of the biggest reasons why bad teams stay bad. Continually doing one year deals when they need a 3-4 year bottom out; but selling themselves that in just a year they will be better, they already are better and just need Dedmon type roll players etc.

But yeah, drafting say Bagley instead of Luka can definitely be reason for teams staying bad. I would have the draft as one of the top two. But absolutely not retaining flexibility.

Disagree man. Being stuck with Wiggins is a horrible plan unless they add a lot more than just one pick. If they miss on #2 and are stuck with Wiggins, its a nightmare. More ammo is needed for these players and cap that are being sent out.

Think Batum with Charlotte and you can easily see my point. The Hornets have been trying to recover from that one contract for multiple seasons. Wiggins, Gordon, Fournier adds up to two picks minimum; I would press for three.
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Re: Orlando/GS (yes it involves #2) 

Post#16 » by Buzzard » Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:19 pm

HartfordWhalers wrote:
Buzzard wrote:Ross could get one. The Lakers, Clippers, Nuggets, Jazz, 76ers, Bucks could all use a sharp shooter making 37.5 for the next three years.


Philly requires Richardson outgoing so that is a no.
LAL would require Green, and personally I see Green/#27 for Ross as something LAL says no to. Maybe though?
Don't seethe minutes to make it worth the cap hit in Boston.
Clippers would require outgoing someone at least as useful, I'm not seeing it, as they need more playmaking not stand off shooting.
Nuggets I don't see it, would rather stick with Barton and certainly not worth a 1st more.
Utah could be Ed Davis and Tony Bradley, but would they pay a 1st? I don't think so.
I don't see him as the solution in Milwaukee either (same reason as LAC), but guaranteeing Ersan, 1st and DJ Wilson does it.

Yeah, I've been trying for an hour to find a realistic Ross trade that get Orlando good assets and I'm not convinced of one.

Ross into TPE for 2021 GSW lottery protected 1st.
Ross for Ersan/Wilson/1st
These are not trades that have to be done at this draft. Once teams have their rosters full and more contracts it will be easier. Ross being moved at this seasons deadline would be no different than Clarkson or Beasley when they were moved. When I say a pick for a player, I am not just talking in terms of 2020 picks.
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Re: Orlando/GS (yes it involves #2) 

Post#17 » by Texas Chuck » Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:21 pm

This is exactly the kind of deal GSW should be hunting. Exactly. And I'd give them the option of also taking Ross into the TPE if they are willing to spend the money. They realistically have a 2 to maybe 3 year window and they should hit it hard. I don't care at all about the potential topside of the pick if that guy isn't ready to play a serious role immediately and I already know Wiggins isn't.

Love this for GSW. Don't love it for Orlando, but think its the kind of deal they should make. Just hard reset instead of being a 7-10 seed forever.
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Re: Orlando/GS (yes it involves #2) 

Post#18 » by gom » Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:26 pm

This is a good trade HW. Orlando are not a bad team but they have nothing exciting that will make them better. They should take this deal for the pick and the chance on Wiggins. I don't believe the Minn SRP is required. I'm less certain for GS. I understand the need to move now, but I don't value Gordon or Fournier very high. Maybe they will be better in the GS system when they are accessory pieces rather than on the Magic.
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Re: Orlando/GS (yes it involves #2) 

Post#19 » by gswhoops » Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:30 pm

I'm not totally sold on it, but it's definitely interesting. AG is one of those guys who I think would really, really benefit from going to a team where he could be a complimentary piece instead of a role player.
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Re: Orlando/GS (yes it involves #2) 

Post#20 » by HartfordWhalers » Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:57 pm

Buzzard wrote:
HartfordWhalers wrote:
Buzzard wrote:The two primary reasons bad teams stay in lottery mode for so long is the bad contracts they have and the bad picks they make.

Bad teams need the flexibility to add a one year salary dump and a pick. Long term bad contracts take a lot of that flexibility away.


Fully disagree.

Teams that fail to accurately assess where they are is one of the biggest reasons why bad teams stay bad. Continually doing one year deals when they need a 3-4 year bottom out; but selling themselves that in just a year they will be better, they already are better and just need Dedmon type roll players etc.

But yeah, drafting say Bagley instead of Luka can definitely be reason for teams staying bad. I would have the draft as one of the top two. But absolutely not retaining flexibility.

Disagree man. Being stuck with Wiggins is a horrible plan unless they add a lot more than just one pick. If they miss on #2 and are stuck with Wiggins, its a nightmare. More ammo is needed for these players and cap that are being sent out.

Think Batum with Charlotte and you can easily see my point. The Hornets have been trying to recover from that one contract for multiple seasons. Wiggins, Gordon, Fournier adds up to two picks minimum; I would press for three.


That really isn't what has happened to Charlotte. They were a playoff team when they signed Batum, not a bad team. And they would have been a bad team the past two years even with the cap room of Batum instead of his contract, although obviously that cap room has considerable value.

But yeah, if you go by Charlotte they took a 1 year good run and decided to go all in and it turns out that both how they went all in as well as the rest of their team did not merit it. I definitely have it a failure to understand just how good (or bad) their team is, versus a failure to sign 1 year deals.

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