NYK/CHA/BOS - 3 team (part of Hayward S&T)

[mpharris36]

I think this was mentioned by a celtics fan in one of the other threads but figured I would give it own thread because it makes sense for all parties IMO.

CHA gets - Randle (expiring with 4 MM buyout next year) + Hayward (S&T from celtics)

NYK gets - Batum + 4 2nd round picks (2 from charlotte and 2 from BOS)

BOS gets - Large TPE from Hayward signing and getting no players back

reasons:

CHA - would free up the necessary space to sign Hayward via the S&T and get a productive while flawed 26 big to get backup 4/5 minutes and rid themselves of Batum. Instead of being stuck with stretching Batum 27 MM dead salary over the next 3 years.

NYK - With drafting Obi they free up the starting PF spot and acquire a bunch of second round picks to take on the extra cap (8 MM this year) to get some draft assets.

BOS - I could have left them in or out of this trade but Ainge doesn't have to decide if he wants to use the S&T to acquire Rozier he can punt it for now and have the TPE for a full year and decide if he wants to use some of it or all of it down the road to acquire a better fitting piece. They send a couple small assets to secure the TPE.

[loserX]

Some version of this does make the most sense to me.

Also it is pretty awesome to see multiple posters on this board collaborate to come up with a creative, plausible idea. One of the best parts of being here.

[HornetJail]

4 2nds is a haul for doing so little. Charlotte really only saves $4M between this year and next by doing this once you factor in next year's buyout for Randle. I realize we don't have a ton of leverage, but I'd start by sending 1 2nd from Charlotte and 1 from Boston.

[mpharris36]

4 2nds is a haul for doing so little. Charlotte really only saves $4M between this year and next by doing this once you factor in next year's buyout for Randle. I realize we don't have a ton of leverage, but I'd start by sending 1 2nd from Charlotte and 1 from Boston.

Charlotte would save

2020 - $9 MM this year (while that means nothing to fans its something to the owner)
2021- $5 MM next year (the difference between Randle 4 MM buyout and 9 MM dead space in Batum stretch)
2022 - $9 MM in 2 years

Consider all this savings and not having to move a 1st round pick or having to deal Rozier from Boston I would think 2 2nd round picks is a pretty light price to pay.

Also consider this. You can easily stretch the 4 MM buyout with Randle next year and it would be like 1.3 MM over 3 years (a vet min type deal). So you could save nearly 8 MM next year if MJ wanted to add more FA with zeller and other pieces coming off the books.

Also factor in Batum doesn't help anymore and Randle (while being flawed) isn't someone you can't play he avg 20 and 10 last year.

If your options to sign Hayward via (S&T)

Trade Rozier
Stretch Batum (9 MM in dead cap space for 3 years)
Trade 2 2nd round picks

I would think the trade 2 2nd round picks is by far the easiest pill to swallow since you can't sign Hayward out right.

And Boston wants nothing to do with Batum so they have to give up assets to get a TPE to get Batum.

I assume if CHA wants to to a Rozier for Hayward swap and BOS wants hayward that is probably going to happen...but I wonder why it would be taking so long. Either BOS doesn't want Rozier and his contract or maybe CHA thinks Rozier is a good fit with Ball and Hayward in the lineup with Graham as the super 6th man.

The knicks are being compensated for taking on by far the worst contract in the deal.

[hugepatsfan]

I've proposed similar. 4 2nds seems high for NY to get, but on the other side, I think at the end of the day giving up 2 2nds to do this benefits BOS and CHA so if NY holds strong I can see them extracting something like that

CHA actually gets back a useable player for their front court who fits the mold of what they tried to sign in Trez Harrell. (I think they're real plan was to sign both Hayward/Trez which would have required the stretch on Batum, hence it even being discussed as an option to begin with - but now that it's just Hayward it seems silly hence the S&T rumored.) They get contractual but also on court value here. They upgrade their on court rotation and they avoid the massive dead money spikes in the future years where they do figure to be able to use cap space if they preserve it. (Randle's $4M guarantee next year is reasonable to stretch at that time.)

BOS has a pretty full roster going forward with a "Core 4" of Kemba/Smart/Brown/Tatum and then a whole unit of recent 1st round picks in Pritchard/Langford/Nesmith/G Williams/R Williams. 2nd round picks at the end of the day just don't mean much to this team. Even if it ends up going unused, a massive TPE like this is worth however many 2nds it takes to generate.

[mpharris36]

I've proposed similar. 4 2nds seems high for NY to get, but on the other side, I think at the end of the day giving up 2 2nds to do this benefits BOS and CHA so if NY holds strong I can see them extracting something like that

CHA actually gets back a useable player for their front court who fits the mold of what they tried to sign in Trez Harrell. (I think they're real plan was to sign both Hayward/Trez which would have required the stretch on Batum, hence it even being discussed as an option to begin with - but now that it's just Hayward it seems silly hence the S&T rumored.) They get contractual but also on court value here. They upgrade their on court rotation and they avoid the massive dead money spikes in the future years where they do figure to be able to use cap space if they preserve it. (Randle's $4M guarantee next year is reasonable to stretch at that time.)

BOS has a pretty full roster going forward with a "Core 4" of Kemba/Smart/Brown/Tatum and then a whole unit of recent 1st round picks in Pritchard/Langford/Nesmith/G Williams/R Williams. 2nd round picks at the end of the day just don't mean much to this team. Even if it ends up going unused, a massive TPE like this is worth however many 2nds it takes to generate.

yeah I think the reason if the NYK hold firm is that they would have the most leverage in the deal from a sense that they could just hold firm and just play out the season with Randle as an expiring.

CHA needs to clear room (ideally not through a stretch)
BOS like you said probably values the TPE over 2nd round picks as well.

[Yenrallik1111]

I do not think I understand the rationalization for Charlotte. Randle would likely be redundant in their front court, no? and the potential of a sign and trade for hayward could give him another year if I am not mistaken. 4 years feels like more than enough of an investment. batum is useless from what I understand. his big expiring is all the value he has. why bring in randle to buy him out while being redundant in the front court. then there is giving up the 2 2nds and giving boston that TPE. If my understanding is correct I am not helping nyk or boston in the slightest. they already have an agreement with hayward

[patman66]

This is an outstanding from the Celts perspective. Maybe Thibs would also like Semi as the hard playing/practicing player for starting his method of doing things.

[jbk1234]

It's steep but worth it. I question whether Ainge would send two seconds. Until Hayward actually signs, there's always a chance it falls apart and Boston still has Bird rights.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

[mpharris36]

I do not think I understand the rationalization for Charlotte. Randle would likely be redundant in their front court, no? and the potential of a sign and trade for hayward could give him another year if I am not mistaken. 4 years feels like more than enough of an investment. batum is useless from what I understand. his big expiring is all the value he has. why bring in randle to buy him out while being redundant in the front court. then there is giving up the 2 2nds and giving boston that TPE. If my understanding is correct I am not helping nyk or boston in the slightest. they already have an agreement with hayward

Charlotte front court consists of PJ Washington and Cody Zeller right now. I don't think they would be opposed to adding another guy that can score and rebound even if its just off the bench for 1 year. Batum like you said is useless.

Factor is a condensed season and injuries that hornets have zero depth in there front court.

[hugepatsfan]

I do not think I understand the rationalization for Charlotte. Randle would likely be redundant in their front court, no? and the potential of a sign and trade for hayward could give him another year if I am not mistaken. 4 years feels like more than enough of an investment. batum is useless from what I understand. his big expiring is all the value he has. why bring in randle to buy him out while being redundant in the front court. then there is giving up the 2 2nds and giving boston a that TPE. If my understanding is correct I am not helping nyk or boston in the slightest. they already have an agreement with hayward

The Hornets as of right now do not have the cap space to sign the contract they agreed to with Hayward. They have to clear about $7M to do so. The problem is that they don't really have a harmless, quick and easy way to do that...

The only players they have making over $7M are...

Zeller at $15M. Unless you're trading him into cap space or an exception the other team needs to match within $5M of salary which isn't enough. And if you're trading him into cap space or an exception you're likely attaching an asset.

Rozier at $18.9M. Same situation as Zeller where the other team needs to get within $5M unless CHA is paying an asset to attach. And with a 2nd year on Rozier's deal it'd be a pretty notable asset that CHA would have to attach.

Batum, once again is in the same situation. In order to match salaries the other team needs to get within about $5.5M of his salary. So a deal wouldn't clear enough room. And to move him into cap space would cost real assets since he's a useless $27M player.

For CHA to make the space by doing 1-2 of the moves above will likely cost them at least 1 first round pick. Their other option is to just waive/stretch Batum. But that puts $9M of dead cap each of the next 3 years. Thy project to be a cap space team next year but a $9M dead money charge throws a big dent into that (wipes out like 1/3 of the cap).

CHA has a ton to gain by doing a deal like this.

[loserX]

I do not think I understand the rationalization for Charlotte. Randle would likely be redundant in their front court, no? and the potential of a sign and trade for hayward could give him another year if I am not mistaken. 4 years feels like more than enough of an investment. batum is useless from what I understand. his big expiring is all the value he has. why bring in randle to buy him out while being redundant in the front court. then there is giving up the 2 2nds and giving boston a that TPE. If my understanding is correct I am not helping nyk or boston in the slightest. they already have an agreement with hayward

A couple of things:

1) it *used* to be that you could offer a 5th year and bigger raises if you acquired the player in an S&T, as opposed to an outright signing. That is no longer the case; the only team that can offer those perks is the old team if they keep him. So that is not a particular advantage for Charlotte in this scenario.

2) Overall Randle is $4M cheaper, so even if neither he nor Batum play one minute for Charlotte, they save $4M in real money. That is an advantage.

3) If Charlotte stretches Batum, they have $9M of dead money on their cap in 2021, $9M in 2022, and $9M in 2023.
If they stretch Randle, they have $4.6M of dead money on their cap in 2021, $4.6M in 2022, $4.6M in 2023, $4.6M in 2024 and $4.6M in 2025.
If they just buy him out without stretching, they have $19M of dead money on their cap in 2021 (but would have been paying Batum $27M for nothing anyway), $4M in 2022, and $0 in 2023.
If they keep him for a year (they don't even have to play him, just like Batum) then stretch him in 2022, they'd have $19M of "live" money in 2021, $1.3M in 2022, $1.3M in 2023, and $1.3M in 2024, i.e. each of those years less than the vet min.

The options are numerous and (with the arguable exception of stretching Randle immediately) they are *all* better than stretching Batum. Charlotte should definitely be paying for this; the question is how much can they leverage Boston into paying their way instead.

[mpharris36]

It's steep but worth it. I question whether Ainge would send two seconds. Until Hayward actually signs, there's always a chance it falls apart and Boston still has Bird rights.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

I thought about this which is why I think Charlotte has to engage the knicks because CHA needs to have the threat of clearing the space (I think that is why they leaked out the batum stretch/waive but I don't think anyone is buying they are willing to eat 9MM a year for 3 years) so BOS would play ball because CHA has to clear about 7-8 MM to get the deal done.

So if NYK are in play Ainge would then have to weight....do I want a large TPE or do I want 2 2nd round picks. I think that choice is pretty clear if you as me.

[hugepatsfan]

This is an outstanding from the Celts perspective. Maybe Thibs would also like Semi as the hard playing/practicing player for starting his method of doing things.

With the depth chart Boston has right now I highly doubt we just give away Semi. Just doesn't make sense at this point. We lack anyone with proven performance on the wing. Semi is at least proven as a 9th/10th man that doesn't hurt you too bad.

[hugepatsfan]

I do not think I understand the rationalization for Charlotte. Randle would likely be redundant in their front court, no? and the potential of a sign and trade for hayward could give him another year if I am not mistaken. 4 years feels like more than enough of an investment. batum is useless from what I understand. his big expiring is all the value he has. why bring in randle to buy him out while being redundant in the front court. then there is giving up the 2 2nds and giving boston a that TPE. If my understanding is correct I am not helping nyk or boston in the slightest. they already have an agreement with hayward

A couple of things:

1) it *used* to be that you could offer a 5th year and bigger raises if you acquired the player in an S&T, as opposed to an outright signing. That is no longer the case; the only team that can offer those perks is the old team if they keep him. So that is not a particular advantage for Charlotte in this scenario.

2) Overall Randle is $4M cheaper, so even if neither he nor Batum play one minute for Charlotte, they save $4M in real money. That is an advantage.

3) If Charlotte stretches Batum, they have $9M of dead money on their cap in 2021, $9M in 2022, and $9M in 2023.
If they stretch Randle, they have $7.67 of dead money on their cap in 2021, $7.67 in 2022, and $7.67 in 2023.
If they just buy him out without stretching, they have $19M of dead money on their cap in 2021 (but would have been paying Batum $27M for nothing anyway), $4M in 2022, and $0 in 2023.
If they keep him for a year (they don't even have to play him, just like Batum) then stretch him in 2022, they'd have $19M of "live" money in 2021, $1.3M in 2022, $1.3M in 2023, and $1.3M in 2024, i.e. each of those years less than the vet min.

The options are numerous and they are *all* better than stretching Batum. Charlotte should definitely be paying for this; the question is how much can they leverage Boston into paying their way instead.

One correction on the bold...

Because Randle has that partial guarantee next year, it counts as a two year deal for stretch purposes. That means they can stretch his $23M over 5 years, not 3 as you have here.

Moot point really though because there would be no need to do that. They'd have the room to just sign Hayward outright and seems unlikely there's a FA they'd need to make that room for now. They'd just have him play out the year then stretch the $4M buyout next year most likely.

[Yenrallik1111]

I do not think I understand the rationalization for Charlotte. Randle would likely be redundant in their front court, no? and the potential of a sign and trade for hayward could give him another year if I am not mistaken. 4 years feels like more than enough of an investment. batum is useless from what I understand. his big expiring is all the value he has. why bring in randle to buy him out while being redundant in the front court. then there is giving up the 2 2nds and giving boston a that TPE. If my understanding is correct I am not helping nyk or boston in the slightest. they already have an agreement with hayward

A couple of things:

1) it *used* to be that you could offer a 5th year and bigger raises if you acquired the player in an S&T, as opposed to an outright signing. That is no longer the case; the only team that can offer those perks is the old team if they keep him. So that is not a particular advantage for Charlotte in this scenario.

2) Overall Randle is $4M cheaper, so even if neither he nor Batum play one minute for Charlotte, they save $4M in real money. That is an advantage.

3) If Charlotte stretches Batum, they have $9M of dead money on their cap in 2021, $9M in 2022, and $9M in 2023.
If they stretch Randle, they have $7.67 of dead money on their cap in 2021, $7.67 in 2022, and $7.67 in 2023.
If they just buy him out without stretching, they have $19M of dead money on their cap in 2021 (but would have been paying Batum $27M for nothing anyway), $4M in 2022, and $0 in 2023.
If they keep him for a year (they don't even have to play him, just like Batum) then stretch him in 2022, they'd have $19M of "live" money in 2021, $1.3M in 2022, $1.3M in 2023, and $1.3M in 2024, i.e. each of those years less than the vet min.

The options are numerous and they are *all* better than stretching Batum. Charlotte should definitely be paying for this; the question is how much can they leverage Boston into paying their way instead.

One correction on the bold...

Because Randle has that partial guarantee next year, it counts as a two year deal for stretch purposes. That means they can stretch his $23M over 5 years, not 3 as you have here.

Moot point really though because there would be no need to do that. They'd have the room to just sign Hayward outright and seems unlikely there's a FA they'd need to make that room for now. They'd just have him play out the year then stretch the $4M buyout next year most likely.

Thanks guys! admittedly I am not as knowledgeable when it comes to this kind of information, it is appreciated.

[loserX]

One correction on the bold...

Because Randle has that partial guarantee next year, it counts as a two year deal for stretch purposes. That means they can stretch his $23M over 5 years, not 3 as you have here.

Moot point really though because there would be no need to do that. They'd have the room to just sign Hayward outright and seems unlikely there's a FA they'd need to make that room for now. They'd just have him play out the year then stretch the $4M buyout next year most likely.

You are 100% correct, I goofed that completely. Will edit my post so it's not misleading to anyone else.

Thanks for the catch!

[MoneyTalks41890]

This is good and imo what should happen with this situation. The other ideas with OKC, SAC, etc have been fun to think about but end up being more convoluted than something straightforward like this. Fight about the 2nds, but if that's where we are it's a lot closer than the other ideas (and FWIW I think 2nds from BOS for getting the TPE and 2nds from CHA for cutting 10m this year and having to figure out what to do with Randle and his 4m gtd next year, as well as getting CHA out of a bind, are all worth it)

[patman66]

This is good and imo what should happen with this situation. The other ideas with OKC, SAC, etc have been fun to think about but end up being more convoluted than something straightforward like this. Fight about the 2nds, but if that's where we are it's a lot closer than the other ideas (and FWIW I think 2nds from BOS for getting the TPE and 2nds from CHA for cutting 10m this year and having to figure out what to do with Randle and his 4m gtd next year, as well as getting CHA out of a bind, are all worth it)

Without a doubt, right now with randle that means Toppin will have to play min at the 3, at which he will be abused def. Batum can back up knox with Barrett and burks at the 2. If NY want to move space the celts can also take in bullock and that save NY another 5 mill.

[djFan71]

For 2 2nds, send Bullock BOS's way.
He'll fit into the Kanter TPE. We still get the full Hayward one.