Official: Shams/Woj/Shelbourne: It's Brooklyn for the Beard

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Harden deal DONE - your take? (You can select multiple options)

Harden My Heart - Nets win. You get a chance at a transformative player, you take it. Any real damage is years off, if ever, and in the meantime you are a legit contender.
28
22%
Home Dipo - Rockets win. The love affair was over, and in exchange they got a *good* win-now player in Oladipo (albeit expiring), plus 4 picks and 4 swaps. That's a plenty good salvage under the circumstances.
19
15%
Allen Key - Cavaliers win. They picked up their C of the future for taking one extra year of Taurean Prince and giving up a lame pick.
45
35%
LeVerting to the Mean - Pacers win. Oladipo is talented, but they got a good younger (and *cheaper*) player to keep growing with their core.
28
22%
Driving a Harden Bargain - Nobody wins. Harden won't help the Nets win anything, both Houston and Cleveland screwed up by giving up value for players they will still have to sign, and a rising Pacers team just got worse.
8
6%
 
Total votes: 128

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Re: Official: Shams/Woj/Shelbourne: It's Brooklyn for the Beard 

Post#121 » by nolang1 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:52 pm

VDT wrote:
nolang1 wrote:
A) Those 'middling' Brooklyn players were acquired with 1st round picks and/or cap space that they no longer have. Just because someone isn't a superstar doesn't mean they can automatically be replaced with minimum salary players or late 2nd/undrafted rookies.


My point is that it is not hard to find players like Allen, Levert etc either as second round picks or get them in the free agency. Getting a late lottery/late playoff seed is the easiest thing to do in this league, particularly when half of the teams in the East are terrible.


Lol you're talking about players who were drafted 2nd, 17th, and 20th and all commanded or will command 10+ million a year in free agency. So yes, it is pretty hard to find players like that when you're working with 2nd round picks or the vet minimum. Also you're moving the goalposts by talking about simply being a borderline playoff team later on; I said that 4 late 1sts is already decent enough for a worst-case scenario, so if you're just moving a couple of those picks up 15 spots and/or introducing more pick swaps later on it becomes a lot better.

Obviously the Rockets tried as long as they could to hold on to Harden until he just wasn't having it anymore, and at that point it's about whether the Nets' offer was better than what other teams offered rather than if you think it was 'enough' value for Harden.
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Re: Official: Shams -- Dipo to Houston 

Post#122 » by FNQ » Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:54 pm

patman66 wrote:
FNQ wrote:
patman66 wrote:
Wait a second, your concerned about dipo injury history and you rectify that by adding Levert, that is like having asthma and moving to LA for the air


Dipo had one of their hardest injuries to fully rehab. One of our lowest success rates, and unlike Achilles' injuries, there was no noticeable incline (at least through 2016). Its kinda amazing that he's gotten back as far as he has, but I'll always be wary of him. Not unlike Durant with his foot injury.

Not all injuries are equal


going back 6 years, levert played 2/3rds of the games in a season once. Dipo has now played the bubble games and 12games this year since his injury. Levert is a talent, but inefficient and injury prone.


Ok I understand that, I'm not saying Levert isnt without risk obviously, I'm saying that Dipo had a significant injury that typically doesnt have a great long-term prognosis, and he's going to be due a massive contract next year, health permitting. I'm far less worried about 'nickel and dime' injuries than I am potentially career-changing ones.

That said, is it possible Oladipo beats it and returns to a consistent 100%? Sure, but again I caution - he's had one season where he played at a star level and played the whole season, and it was before this injury. So if you're asking me which player I'd rather have right now, its LeVert, because unless I'm playing to win this season, the offseason puts me in a tough position, where I have to pay a ton to a guy I'm concerned about long-term, or risk losing him for nothing.

And as I was arguing earlier, if the point was just to get Houston capspace, there's probably a lot more players out there who were worse than Oladipo and would likely give the Rockets an asset to acquire him. This is of course assuming that Dipo's value is larger than that of just an expiring contract, which I think is a safe bet
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Re: Official: Shams/Woj/Shelbourne: It's Brooklyn for the Beard 

Post#123 » by Topofthekey » Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:02 am

No idea why people dislike this for the Rockets

They got a motherlode of picks

The unprotected picks in '24 and '26 could turn out to be gold, as can the pick swaps in '23, '25, and '27

I mean, do people seriously still expect the big 3 of KD, Harden, and Kyrie to contend in 2026 or 2027, when they are all in their late 30s?

But Cavs is the big winner of this trade, they absolutely sniped Allen for almost nothing
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Re: Official: Shams/Woj/Shelbourne: It's Brooklyn for the Beard 

Post#124 » by giberish » Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:07 am

I feel this was the result of Harden Vince Cartering his trade value by being out of shape and disinterested until it fell far enough for the Nets pu-pu platter to be a viable trade. This was clearly a severe discount compared to Harden's value based on the previous seasons where he was trying. Sure the distant picks have some upside for Houston but that's still iffy at best. Olidipo can be a very good player but between health and contract the Pacers were willing to deal him for a mediocre LaVert which shows his value.
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Re: Official: Shams/Woj/Shelbourne: It's Brooklyn for the Beard 

Post#125 » by FNQ » Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:15 am

Topofthekey wrote:No idea why people dislike this for the Rockets

They got a motherlode of picks

The unprotected picks in '24 and '26 could turn out to be gold, and can the pick swaps in '23, '25, and '27

I mean, do people seriously still expect the big 3 of KD, Harden, and Kyrie to contend in 2026 or 2027, when they are all in their late 30s?

But Cavs is the big winner of this trade, they absolutely sniped Allen for almost nothing


I think its because this could end up as a big nothingburger for them. Those picks have potential, but its all kinda random-ish at this point. And the assets they could have used, LeVert and Allen, were shipped away for underwhelming returns (based on how these votes are going on both boards).

I dont think its necessarily bad, but there's very little finite, concrete, definite value they got back. My guess anyways
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Re: Official: Shams/Woj/Shelbourne: It's Brooklyn for the Beard 

Post#126 » by youngthegiant » Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:20 am

Grades

Indy A-
Cavs A-
Rockets D-
Nets B+
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Re: Official: Shams -- Dipo to Houston 

Post#127 » by Wizop » Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:35 am

patman66 wrote:Wait a second, your concerned about dipo injury history and you rectify that by adding Levert, that is like having asthma and moving to LA for the air
Vic wasn't playing in back to backs . Availability matters.
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Re: Official: Shams/Woj/Shelbourne: It's Brooklyn for the Beard 

Post#128 » by jbk1234 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:48 am

I feel like people are ignoring the reality that the Rockets were not going to take back bad money and when you're trading a contract as big as Harden's that matters.

People are saying that the Cavs sniped Allen, but he needs to get paid next summer which the Rockets almost certainly didn't want to do. In addition, the Cavs ate Prince's $15M salary next season which is the equivalent of at least a late first. So it's really the equivalent of two firsts (one of them unprotected) and a second for a guy who is in the last year of his rookie deal. I'm happy with the deal, but I don't think we killed it. I suspect we were the highest bidder.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Official: Shams/Woj/Shelbourne: It's Brooklyn for the Beard 

Post#129 » by Dadouv47 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:55 am

Crazy that the Rockets passed on Simmons/Thybulle. They better get lucky with those picks.
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Re: Official: Shams/Woj/Shelbourne: It's Brooklyn for the Beard 

Post#130 » by VDT » Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:56 am

nolang1 wrote:
VDT wrote:
nolang1 wrote:
A) Those 'middling' Brooklyn players were acquired with 1st round picks and/or cap space that they no longer have. Just because someone isn't a superstar doesn't mean they can automatically be replaced with minimum salary players or late 2nd/undrafted rookies.


My point is that it is not hard to find players like Allen, Levert etc either as second round picks or get them in the free agency. Getting a late lottery/late playoff seed is the easiest thing to do in this league, particularly when half of the teams in the East are terrible.


Lol you're talking about players who were drafted 2nd, 17th, and 20th and all commanded or will command 10+ million a year in free agency. So yes, it is pretty hard to find players like that when you're working with 2nd round picks or the vet minimum. Also you're moving the goalposts by talking about simply being a borderline playoff team later on; I said that 4 late 1sts is already decent enough for a worst-case scenario, so if you're just moving a couple of those picks up 15 spots and/or introducing more pick swaps later on it becomes a lot better.

Obviously the Rockets tried as long as they could to hold on to Harden until he just wasn't having it anymore, and at that point it's about whether the Nets' offer was better than what other teams offered rather than if you think it was 'enough' value for Harden.


I am talk about players taht you can easily get in the free agency like Allen, Levert or Russell or possibly draft them with a second round pick. Being a late playoff team in the East is one of the easiest things in the league.

And i am not moving the goalposts, the first picks are going to likely be late first. I am talking about the later picks which have more upside. Even these will be at worst middle to late 10s. there is very little chance that they will be high lottery picks and a more than decent chance that they will also be late 1sts if the Nets manage to retool and continue being a good team.

And the point is that according to the leaks the Nets had a better offer from the Sixers but preferred to try and screw Morey instead.
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Re: Official: Shams/Woj/Shelbourne: It's Brooklyn for the Beard 

Post#131 » by Catchall » Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:18 am

Dadouv47 wrote:Overall it's pretty good for Houston but I hate the Levert/Oladipo trade (If this is the reason why they passed on Allen so they could pay Oladipo, it's even worse)


Oladipo may be headed to Miami in free agency. He might be a rental this season.
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Re: Official: Shams/Woj/Shelbourne: It's Brooklyn for the Beard 

Post#132 » by Catchall » Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:21 am

Laimbeer wrote:Harden and Durant can both leave after next season. KD and Kyrie have question marks around their health. Those picks and swaps in the out years could be very good.


BRK has a run in them for the next couple of seasons, at which point age becomes a factor with both KD and Harden, as well as Deandre Jordan. It's now or never for them.
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Re: Official: Shams/Woj/Shelbourne: It's Brooklyn for the Beard 

Post#133 » by Catchall » Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:22 am

Topofthekey wrote:No idea why people dislike this for the Rockets

They got a motherlode of picks

The unprotected picks in '24 and '26 could turn out to be gold, as can the pick swaps in '23, '25, and '27

I mean, do people seriously still expect the big 3 of KD, Harden, and Kyrie to contend in 2026 or 2027, when they are all in their late 30s?

But Cavs is the big winner of this trade, they absolutely sniped Allen for almost nothing


I agree. I also think that Houston wants to bottom out. This is a strong draft. With Covid protocols eliminating fans, now is a good time to tank it. Getting a top-5 pick with their own draft pick this year is also a win.
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Re: Official: Shams/Woj/Shelbourne: It's Brooklyn for the Beard 

Post#134 » by Topofthekey » Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:27 am

People are also sleeping on a Wall-Oladipo backcourt
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Re: Official: Shams/Woj/Shelbourne: It's Brooklyn for the Beard 

Post#135 » by NYG » Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:37 am

So do we start the Bradley Beal talk now or...?
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Re: Official: Shams/Woj/Shelbourne: It's Brooklyn for the Beard 

Post#136 » by ThatBoyNick » Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:43 am

Topofthekey wrote:People are also sleeping on a Wall-Oladipo backcourt


For good reason LOL.
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Re: Official: Shams/Woj/Shelbourne: It's Brooklyn for the Beard 

Post#137 » by Stillwater » Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:44 am

Topofthekey wrote:People are also sleeping on a Wall-Oladipo backcourt

two great players not so long ago badly injured though. Can they hold up idk but you are no contender as is
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Re: Official: Shams/Woj/Shelbourne: It's Brooklyn for the Beard 

Post#138 » by Scoot McGroot » Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:49 am

Catchall wrote:
Dadouv47 wrote:Overall it's pretty good for Houston but I hate the Levert/Oladipo trade (If this is the reason why they passed on Allen so they could pay Oladipo, it's even worse)


Oladipo may be headed to Miami in free agency. He might be a rental this season.


With the Bam extension, Oladipo can’t get a max in Miami with Butler/Bam on the books, and holding onto the cap hold of Robinson with Herro. And they won’t get rid of any of those guys for Oladipo.
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Re: Official: Shams/Woj/Shelbourne: It's Brooklyn for the Beard 

Post#139 » by nolang1 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:52 am

VDT wrote:
nolang1 wrote:
VDT wrote:
My point is that it is not hard to find players like Allen, Levert etc either as second round picks or get them in the free agency. Getting a late lottery/late playoff seed is the easiest thing to do in this league, particularly when half of the teams in the East are terrible.


Lol you're talking about players who were drafted 2nd, 17th, and 20th and all commanded or will command 10+ million a year in free agency. So yes, it is pretty hard to find players like that when you're working with 2nd round picks or the vet minimum. Also you're moving the goalposts by talking about simply being a borderline playoff team later on; I said that 4 late 1sts is already decent enough for a worst-case scenario, so if you're just moving a couple of those picks up 15 spots and/or introducing more pick swaps later on it becomes a lot better.

Obviously the Rockets tried as long as they could to hold on to Harden until he just wasn't having it anymore, and at that point it's about whether the Nets' offer was better than what other teams offered rather than if you think it was 'enough' value for Harden.


I am talk about players taht you can easily get in the free agency like Allen, Levert or Russell or possibly draft them with a second round pick. Being a late playoff team in the East is one of the easiest things in the league.


2 extremely simple points you repeatedly miss:

1. You need cap space to get players like that when they're not already on your team. The Nets will not have any.

2. If you're talking about 2 late firsts and 2 mid firsts, plus maybe moving up for free a time or two due to pick swaps, that's more or less Simmons' value and likely better for a team with intentions of rebuilding rather than being an expensive late or non-playoff team.
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Re: Official: Shams/Woj/Shelbourne: It's Brooklyn for the Beard 

Post#140 » by Catchall » Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:56 am

Scoot McGroot wrote:
Catchall wrote:
Dadouv47 wrote:Overall it's pretty good for Houston but I hate the Levert/Oladipo trade (If this is the reason why they passed on Allen so they could pay Oladipo, it's even worse)


Oladipo may be headed to Miami in free agency. He might be a rental this season.


With the Bam extension, Oladipo can’t get a max in Miami with Butler/Bam on the books, and holding onto the cap hold of Robinson with Herro. And they won’t get rid of any of those guys for Oladipo.


Okay, but regardless, Oladipo will be a free agent this offseason and will likely choose a new destination. At the moment, he doesn't look like a max player, and he might take significantly less to sign with a team he likes.
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