Boston ain't right -- How to fix?

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Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#1 » by Texas Chuck » Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:12 pm

Now I'm not saying panic because despite a disappointing season and some terrible losses, they are only half a game out of a home court spot in the struggling Eastern Conference. They will be a solid playoff team though not a team that feels like they have a run in them.

But beyond the mediocre record its clear something just isn't right. Do they just miss Marcus Smart that much and when he comes back they will look like Boston again? Is Kemba not being Kemba dragging them down? Is it the we have a bunch of guys we play at center, but don't really have a center?

Is it time to think the unthinkable and consider a change with Danny or Brad? :o

They have that big TPE and all their picks and some young players of varying worth so they can definitely add a significant piece without giving anything up--just have to watch the hard cap. But is it time to do something more drastic yet?

They feel a lot like Dallas to me in that yeah they should come around a bit to more what we thought, but also that something just isn't right with the current mixes. That a major change is needed.

So talk me down on Boston or tell me what they should do.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#2 » by BK_2020 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:15 pm

Trade Jaylen for Wiseman or something.
Trade Smart for another prospect.
Trade Kemba, Theis, Thompson for anything.
Tank for Cunningham.

Cunningham - Langford - Nesmith - Tatum - Wiseman

Championships!!!!
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#3 » by loserX » Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:27 pm

It does feel a bit like there is a leadership issue there. Things went badly a while ago so they ditched Kyrie and Horford, then Hayward wanted out...and it felt like it never actually got right. Kemba is a warrior but we all know what's going on there, and Smart has great intangibles but he doesn't feel like enough either.

It's a great organization with smart people and a lot of pride (and Tatum and Brown are legit), but I agree that it doesn't always feel like everyone's pulling on the same rope as hard as they can.

I do think it would help if Ainge makes a move instead of constantly rolling over picks and TPEs. Those are fun toys but I think his current roster would like to see them pay off, instead of constantly passing over deals for stars in favour of keeping two birds in the bush.

If they can convince Orlando to give up Vuc, that's a nice fit on talent: take him with the TPE and send back Tristan, Nesmith and whatever draft assets to make up the value (that'll keep Boston under the hard cap too). Then trade bit parts and whatever else to get PJ Tucker: even if they don't really need him on the court, they need him in the locker room.

Make an "I think this team can win NOW" statement to rally around. Even if it doesn't pay off in 2021, it'll be good for Tatum and Brown.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#4 » by Magic_Johnny12 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:32 pm

It really depends the direction they want to take as an organization.

I wouldn't hold my breathe on Ainge doing anything dramatic though.

Kemba is on a negative contract and I doubt Ainge gives up on that experiment so early on.

Both Tatum/Brown are seen as untouchable pieces.

Smart is hurt and the soul of their team.

Really outside of that they have young prospects that are under-achieving and overpaid role players.

At his point, I really think they consider dumping Brad before making a blockbuster trade.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#5 » by DroseReturnChi » Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:33 pm

This is why I posted Lavine trade if they deem tatum, brown untouchable. Their entire roster is trash I dont see them past 2nd round if they dont get a 3rd option. Vuc, Lavine, Grant,etc. these are great 3rd options. Ainge is barely above avg since those bkn trade. Hasnt done any blockbuster trades.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#6 » by guille_4 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:41 pm

I'd take a gamble with Westbrook.

Trade Kemba for Westbrook. Bigger contract but IMO higher potential. It's risky but with Kyrie, Harden and KD there's no point on playing it safe, you're not getting out of the Eastern Conference with them and Philly.

They both have this season and next guaranteed, and a player option in 2022-2023. Westbrook's contract is around $43M and Kemba's around $35M per season.

Or what about John Wall for Kemba?
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#7 » by Godaddycurse » Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:45 pm

guille_4 wrote:I'd take a gamble with Westbrook.

Trade Kemba for Westbrook. Bigger contract but IMO higher potential. It's risky but with Kyrie, Harden and KD there's no point on playing it safe, you're not getting out of the Eastern Conference with them and Philly.

They both have this season and next guaranteed, and a player option in 2022-2023. Westbrook's contract is around $43M and Kemba's around $35M per season.

Or what about John Wall for Kemba?


i'd take a gamble on wall before westbrook
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#8 » by Magic_Johnny12 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:52 pm

loserX wrote:
If they can convince Orlando to give up Vuc, that's a nice fit on talent: take him with the TPE and send back Tristan, Nesmith and whatever draft assets to make up the value (that'll keep Boston under the hard cap too).


I just do not see a realistic trade that makes sense for both parties.

Nesmith hasn't shown any signs of life to be considered a center piece of any trade. Orlando wouldn't have any interest in Pritchard with Fultz/Cole.

Vucevic in Boston easily makes their pick 20-25 which isn't anything significant and this is assuming Orlando is shopping Vucevic (which I doubt).

I think Bostons best route is to find smaller pieces that can help them short-term, players like Young, Fournier or getting lucky in the buyout market (Griffin/Drummond).
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#9 » by Celts17Pride » Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:40 pm

I will say this, the team last year that went to another ECF game is not much different than this year's team. Celtics this year have had a lot of injuries and missed games because of COVID.

Top 10 minutes in playoffs last year

Tatum, Brown, Smart, Walker, Hayward, Theis, Wanamaker, R Williams, G Williams, Kanter

Only three players are gone from last year's team: Hayward, Kanter, Wanamaker

Celtics replaced Kanter and Wanamaker with Thompson and Pritchard. That right there is a net positive to even.

Celtics replaced Hayward with two young wings Langford and Nesmith who hardly play because of being too raw or out with injury.

The biggest issue for the Celtics is they never replaced Hayward in any meaningful way. A quality 3rd wing and health are the Celtics biggest issues.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#10 » by Xman » Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:48 pm

Either go big or blow it up. I think a go big move would be sending a couple of picks for Collins.
Collins for Nesmith, (maybe also Pritchard), BOS 2021 #1 with top 5 protection, becomes two seconds, and 2023 BOS #1 with top 6 protection, also turns into two seconds.

The picks are not great but Nesmith is salary controlled and even low or mid number ones have value.

If they decided to rebuild: JBrown to NO for a ton of picks, Tatum/Kemba to OKC for a ton of picks.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#11 » by Skybox » Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:48 pm

You can't have Vuc for scraps but Aaron Gordon for Nesmith and one of late frp's?

He brings a lot of versatility and would be great as the 3rd or 4th piece...he's been jockeying for first for his whole career and has played for 5 coaches. Give this kid some stability and a clear role and a shot at a ring. Give ORL a young (maybe) Korver and some cap space.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#12 » by Prokorov » Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:37 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:Now I'm not saying panic because despite a disappointing season and some terrible losses, they are only half a game out of a home court spot in the struggling Eastern Conference. They will be a solid playoff team though not a team that feels like they have a run in them.

But beyond the mediocre record its clear something just isn't right. Do they just miss Marcus Smart that much and when he comes back they will look like Boston again? Is Kemba not being Kemba dragging them down? Is it the we have a bunch of guys we play at center, but don't really have a center?

Is it time to think the unthinkable and consider a change with Danny or Brad? :o

They have that big TPE and all their picks and some young players of varying worth so they can definitely add a significant piece without giving anything up--just have to watch the hard cap. But is it time to do something more drastic yet?

They feel a lot like Dallas to me in that yeah they should come around a bit to more what we thought, but also that something just isn't right with the current mixes. That a major change is needed.

So talk me down on Boston or tell me what they should do.


They need a big and they need depth. Looking at potential trades it really stands out how they no longer have a warchests of first yet also dont have much of a bench. It is one thing not to land stars or draft stars to pair with Tatum/Brown but with all those picks you would think they would actually have some depth.

If there is anyway to rekindle talks on Turner, thats the move they need to make. another big who can defend while also spacing the floor a bit. dont need to keep experimenting with Timelord or asking Theis to continue to play better then he is.

Beyond that, im not sure how they fix the bench. Maybe be active with their TPE on likely buyout candidates? McGee? Cousins? Maye kick the tires on RHJ who is a FA to help patch some of what smart gave them while he is out? I look at that bench and just dont see that 6th and 7th man you can play every night and say most nights he will look like an NBA player.

I would agree on Ainge/Stevens. I think one needs to go. you can probably have Ainge fade into a Front office "advisory role" and bring in similar thinking new blood at GM.... but something to me has always stunk there with Stevens:

Kyrie leaves.... ok fine. he is a nutcase, bad leader, bad teammate. fine....

but then Horford opts out and leaves, didn't seem to consider staying
But then Heyward opts out and leaves, didn't consider staying
Morris i believe bounced before all of them.

That's 4 high level/starting vets who basically left you for nothing, declined options, and went elsewhere, when your teams was making the ECF. To me, if your coaching is kosher, that doesn't happen. I think Stevens is a great coach for young guys but coming from college and not being a former NBA player i think his "rah-rah, get better everyday" thing works better with young guys then it does with the Vets. I think their young guys are good kids, hard workers, winning types. but i think they got a bit to big for their birtches after that ECF run and brad didnt really address it well. not with the vets, not with the kids. You dont have the successful a team all bounce over 2 years in a weak east unless there are some major issue at the top with coaching.

I think Ainge needed to see that and choose a direction instead of letting the direction choose him (kids). IF he said, its about the kids, he likely could have gotten something from the nets for kyrie, something from philly for al. and should ahve had turner here for heyward as is. And I think you keep Terry too or at least turn terry into picks instead of a 30 year old....

way too much hedging from ainge. he needed to pick a lane and accelrate.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#13 » by BK_2020 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:42 pm

Yeah Horford and Hayward leaving is because they didn't want to play for a coach who wasn't a former NBA player, not because they got offered huge 4 year deals.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#14 » by Prokorov » Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:50 pm

Xman wrote:Either go big or blow it up. I think a go big move would be sending a couple of picks for Collins.
Collins for Nesmith, (maybe also Pritchard), BOS 2021 #1 with top 5 protection, becomes two seconds, and 2023 BOS #1 with top 6 protection, also turns into two seconds.

The picks are not great but Nesmith is salary controlled and even low or mid number ones have value.

If they decided to rebuild: JBrown to NO for a ton of picks, Tatum/Kemba to OKC for a ton of picks.


Blowing it up doesn't make any sense. Especially for a high volume of picks, given how Ainge has used those the last few years.

Tatum is 22
Brown is 24

both locked up for 3+ years. Both very happy to be Celtics. Smart is on a reasonable contract as well and also happy to be a Celtic. It doesnt make sense to blow it up. 99% chance you cant do better then that and giving up one of those to dump Kemba is bigtime overkill that doesnt help.

They have time, they need to realize that. they cant keep striking out with their bench and role players. they should target 2023 and say by then we need 3 legit role/bench guys one of which is an above average center. that gives 2 years plus whatever future picks you want to include. trying to solve it for this year doesnt make sense unless its firing brad, which to me doesnt make sense now that all the vets are gone and you have a young team

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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#15 » by zimpy27 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:52 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:Now I'm not saying panic because despite a disappointing season and some terrible losses, they are only half a game out of a home court spot in the struggling Eastern Conference. They will be a solid playoff team though not a team that feels like they have a run in them.

But beyond the mediocre record its clear something just isn't right. Do they just miss Marcus Smart that much and when he comes back they will look like Boston again? Is Kemba not being Kemba dragging them down? Is it the we have a bunch of guys we play at center, but don't really have a center?

Is it time to think the unthinkable and consider a change with Danny or Brad? :o

They have that big TPE and all their picks and some young players of varying worth so they can definitely add a significant piece without giving anything up--just have to watch the hard cap. But is it time to do something more drastic yet?

They feel a lot like Dallas to me in that yeah they should come around a bit to more what we thought, but also that something just isn't right with the current mixes. That a major change is needed.

So talk me down on Boston or tell me what they should do.


The young players remind me of the Clippers core.

How far away is Smart, Brown, Tatum, Theis from Beverley, PG13, Kawhi, Ibaka?

Both teams suffer from terrible depth.

Batum has been huge for the Clippers like I imagine Hayward would have been for Boston if he stayed.

Kemba is like Lou Will. Costs more baskets than they add.



Celtics have a lot of assets though. I personally think they should trade Kemba, Langford, GWill, Semi for Lonzo, Bledsoe, Redick, Hart. Then they should use TPE and FRPs to get Jerami Grant in off-season. Detroit aren't likely to hold Grant IMO.

Lonzo, Brown, Grant, Tatum, RW3
Bledsoe, Smart, Redick, Hart, Theis, TT
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#16 » by hugepatsfan » Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:54 pm

The pieces around the Tatum/Brown don't really fit. Ainge hasn't done a good job of building a complementary team. Now, to be fair, coming into '19-20, Tatum and Brown were both coming off down years. Brown especially wasn't someone anyone was looking at as a this type of scorer. And even entering this year, Brown has outplayed anyone's expectations. Definitely a fair reason why they aren't ideally build around Tatum/Brown being two dominant iso scorers is because it wasn't until this year that you really saw any indication that Brown would be one. Having two of those guys vs 1 makes a big stylistic shift

Kemba... There's the obvious issues that he's just playing like ***. But stylistically, assuming he's right, he is an on ball scorer. Not ideal fit next to Brown/Tatum when they're playing as they are. Again, with the '19-20 version of Brown, you need more on ball scoring besides Tatum. Now with Brown's emergence, this skill set isn't as much a fit.

Marcus Smart... for all the **** he gets, his shooting has become solid. But his strength as an offensive player, despite the perception of him as a ball hogging chucker, is that he's a great POINT GUARD. Good passer/playmaker out of the pick and roll. However, that playmaking isn't as useful if all of Brown/Kemba/Tatum are on ball guys. Those guys all like to run iso rather than be set up.

Grant Williams' offensive profile is that of a Boris Diaw type. He isn't a C&S guy. He isn't a crash the glass guy. With iso-centric, "my turn your turn" offense that Kemba/Tatum/Brown play, G Will's skill set is just a total dud.

Nemsith was considered a one trick pony as a shooter. He profiled as a guy who excels coming off screens and plays like that. BOS doesn't feature action like that so wtf was the point of drafting him if you won't use him how he should be? To be fair, he's emerging pretty well over the last couple of weeks so I wouldn't write him off.

The Center rotation... Thompson/Theis/R Williams are all good players. But they are all 5s. None of them should be playing much PF as they have tried. It's a waste of asset allocation to have all 3 of them.

They clearly need a shuffle in their roster. Need to put guys in position to excel. Certain things will be constant...

1) You are not breaking up Brown/Tatum. You don't do that as a first choice for obvious reasons.
2) Kemba doesn't seem to be going anywhere. His value is in the tank and I just don't see a team that he fits on at his current salary with so many years left. It doesn't make sense for BOS to use its assets to dump him because then how do they get the other pieces around Brown/Tatum? You just hand on and hope the chemistry/roles settle out. Down the line, explore this. But doesn't seem feasible for now.

The issue seems to be getting the right fits around Brown/Tatum as the iso scorers they've become. So a move for another star just doesn't seem like the move, if we're being honest. They need the right role players. So here's the routes I'd go...

Trade #1

BOS gets: F PJ Tucker
CHA gets: C Daniel Theis
HOU gets: stuff from BOS and/or CHA

Hornets need help at center and has cap to absorb Theis, who is a good player worth giving up some 2nd rounders for (his bird rights a nice get because will make re-signing possible while keeping flexibility). For BOS, he's miscast as a PF. All the things they ask him to do here, Tucker is just better at.

Trade #2

BOS gets: C Al Horford (taken into Hayward TPE)
OKC gets: C Tristan Thompson (taken into Gallinari TPE)

BOS gets a more complete 5. They lost the rebounding, but get better passing, shooting and a guy who's better defending the more dominant big men one on one. OKC saves almost $60M and reduce the Gallo TPE from $19.5M to about $10M, but add a new $27.5M TPE for Horford.

Trade #3

BOS gets: G/F Josh Hart
NO gets: G Romeo Langford, F Grant Williams

Celtics turn two recent 1st rounders into a good bench player who can add some 2-way play. NO probably reluctant to pay him as they'd rather preserve cap space for a big addition down the line.

New Boston rotation:

Kemba / Pritchard
Brown / Smart
Tatum / Hart
Tucker / Ojeleye
Horford / R Williams

I think this group fits better. Not going to want to run that bench group out there all 5 at a time but with a first unit scorer I think this fits well. It's stronger and better matched both offensively and defensively.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#17 » by Prokorov » Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:54 pm

BK_2020 wrote:Yeah Horford and Hayward leaving is because they didn't want to play for a coach who wasn't a former NBA player, not because they got offered huge 4 year deals.


I think you are over simplifying a complex situation. Do those guys even consider leaving if they are happy? Outisde of KD none are in better situations from a winning standpoint right now. And they got longer term deals but opted out of huge salaries and didnt seem to even talk ot boston about matching a big deal. it seemed that their priority was to leave. im sure money played a factor, but most good teams in major cities dont see 4 guys opt out/leave like that
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#18 » by Celts17Pride » Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:59 pm

Prokorov wrote:
BK_2020 wrote:Yeah Horford and Hayward leaving is because they didn't want to play for a coach who wasn't a former NBA player, not because they got offered huge 4 year deals.


I think you are over simplifying a complex situation. Do those guys even consider leaving if they are happy? Outisde of KD none are in better situations from a winning standpoint right now. And they got longer term deals but opted out of huge salaries and didnt seem to even talk ot boston about matching a big deal. it seemed that their priority was to leave. im sure money played a factor, but most good teams in major cities dont see 4 guys opt out/leave like that

Celtics were never paying Horford and Hayward the deals that they recieved. Arguably two of the worst deals in the league. Barking up the wrong tree. The players took the money.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#19 » by hugepatsfan » Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:02 pm

Prokorov wrote:
BK_2020 wrote:Yeah Horford and Hayward leaving is because they didn't want to play for a coach who wasn't a former NBA player, not because they got offered huge 4 year deals.


I think you are over simplifying a complex situation. Do those guys even consider leaving if they are happy? Outisde of KD none are in better situations from a winning standpoint right now. And they got longer term deals but opted out of huge salaries and didnt seem to even talk ot boston about matching a big deal. it seemed that their priority was to leave. im sure money played a factor, but most good teams in major cities dont see 4 guys opt out/leave like that


I don't think what you're saying is accurate on Horford. When he opted out and all the reports were that he was negotiating an extension with Boston... until reports that a mystery team had a 4 year offer for $100M waiting and Boston wouldn't match.

Hayward you have a point, but he's said flat out that he wanted to go to CHA because he wanted to get back to the ball in his hands more. Like he's literally talked about it openly. Should BOS have promised him the ball more over Tatum/Brown? IDK what they could have done there.

Kyrie's situation... if he was a FA a year earlier he'd have re-signed in BOS. It was a terrible dynamic of him wanting to come back as a leader despite the immense success of the team without him a year prior, Hayward being back in name but not play and trying to work through that, all while Brown/Tatum were trying to continue their ascension. It was a bad dynamic that turned Kyrie sour on the team. And that was fair but Brown/Tatum have definitely fixed their career trajectories I'd say.

None of the circumstances of these guys leaving is anything troubling to me organization wise.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#20 » by Prokorov » Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:09 pm

Celts17Pride wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
BK_2020 wrote:Yeah Horford and Hayward leaving is because they didn't want to play for a coach who wasn't a former NBA player, not because they got offered huge 4 year deals.


I think you are over simplifying a complex situation. Do those guys even consider leaving if they are happy? Outisde of KD none are in better situations from a winning standpoint right now. And they got longer term deals but opted out of huge salaries and didnt seem to even talk ot boston about matching a big deal. it seemed that their priority was to leave. im sure money played a factor, but most good teams in major cities dont see 4 guys opt out/leave like that

Celtics were never paying Horford and Hayward the deals that they recieved. Arguably two of the worst deals in the league. Barking up the wrong tree. The players took the money.


That is kind of irrelevant. saying boston would have passed on those deals wouldnt change that those players were considering losing due to internal factors (coaching/communication/roles/etc....)

Maybe they dont opt out if they are happy?

Maybe they tell bosotn to match and boston says no thanks... but the coaching thing would still exsist and be a systemic issue even if boston decided they werent worth the money. Nothing about the boston situations screams "everything is wonderful and im supper happy but i need the most money possible so im out"

Like lets say you have a job. you HATE your boss cause he is an a-hole. you find a job paying you twice as much and the CEO says thats too rich for us. that doesnt change that your boss is an A-hole and the CEO should address it

not saying stevens is an a-hole, but it is not mutually exclusive that guys left for the most money AND coaching led ot them deciding it was a good idea to find another team

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