Boston ain't right -- How to fix?

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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#81 » by Buzzard » Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:41 pm

gswhoops wrote:With the news that Dallas might be shopping KP...I think he could be a good buy-low gamble for the C's.

Too bad his contract is just slightly too big to fit in the TPE.

I don't think Dallas is feeling a lot of love on that KP contract. I think KP for Kemba was proposed before. Not sure how that went.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#82 » by Scoot McGroot » Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:58 pm

queridiculo wrote:
dans1230 wrote:
queridiculo wrote:
This is the sort of sentiment that will have the Celtics treadmill right through Brown's and Tatum's prime.

Kemba doesn't fit the Celtics timeline, yet takes up an inordinate amount of salary cap space.

Not moving him will cost them Smart, who's invariably going to go to the highest bidder following his team friendly contract.

Smart is the heart and soul of that team if you ask me, and the Celtics would be well served if they just cut their losses for the next season or two to rebuild organically for as long as they have Tatum and Brown on their relatively friendly contracts.

A rebuild on the fly might be something worth considering.

Could the Pelicans be talked into moving Adams and Bledsoe for Walker with some assets attached?

Adams is a dinosaur, but his DNA would fit with the Celtics rough and tumble approach and they'd have a changeup guy in Bledsoe whose only partially guaranteed after the 2021/22 season.

I agree that Adams would fit well in Boston, would a Walker/Thompson for Adams/Bledsoe swap work for both teams. Contractually the money is pretty even for both teams throughout.


That extra year on Thompson's deal probably makes this a no go for the Pelicans unless Boston attaches more assets.

Adams contract fits into the Celtics trade exception.

Is there anything in the CBA that would prevent the Celtics from executing a Adams/Bledsoe/Reddick trade for Walker in separate transactions?

Trade 1: Adams for future considerations and trade exception
Trade 2: Bledsoe/Reddick for Walker


In a trade, each team can structure a trade to their benefit, so long as all parts work legally per the CBA. So, hypothetically, that would be fine.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#83 » by enzino » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:06 pm

Godaddycurse wrote:
guille_4 wrote:I'd take a gamble with Westbrook.

Trade Kemba for Westbrook. Bigger contract but IMO higher potential. It's risky but with Kyrie, Harden and KD there's no point on playing it safe, you're not getting out of the Eastern Conference with them and Philly.

They both have this season and next guaranteed, and a player option in 2022-2023. Westbrook's contract is around $43M and Kemba's around $35M per season.

Or what about John Wall for Kemba?


i'd take a gamble on wall before westbrook

J.Wall for Kemba and Langofrod works salary wise
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#84 » by mg » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:17 pm

Boston should've kept Rozier instead of signing Kemba and been opportunistic about trading for a center such as Capela or Allen when they came available. They let way too many assets walk out the door the past few years and I realize alot of it was out of their control (Hayward, Kyrie, Horford, Rozier, Morris). I would assume at least one of them could've been dealt for some kind of real asset before they hit free agency. Also Ainge has blown thru his draft picks with little to show although I do like Williams and Pritchard (Nesmith might work out too).

At this point they might be best suited to keep developing the kids I mentioned above. They might just have to take their medicine on Kemba as I doubt there would be much interest unless the Celts are willing to take back an equally bad or worse contract.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#85 » by cl2117 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:19 pm

Adjust expectations and keep building. Acknowledge that there isn't currently a move/moves that's going to fix everything. That's the best approach forward.

A large part of the problem is the expectations. It's understandable given what they had to work with at one point and where they are now, but I think if you unshackled the current iteration of the Celtics of the past expectations the situation wouldn't be viewed as negatively. But being realistic they've definitely taken a big step back the last two years and they need to adjust accordingly rather than trying to stay on the same trajectory without the assets/players to do so.

It's only fair to start at the top with Danny/Brad, but while they've both made mistakes, neither should be on the hotseat right now.

Danny deserves more of the blame as he's the one who's constructed the team. His biggest mistake was focusing too much on the perfect outcome (AD/Kyrie) and getting tunnel vision. He's also been a victim of bad luck/circumstance, so he does have some excuses. As long as he acknowledges what this team is (which it sounds like he does), I'm fine with him at the helm.

Brad's not above reproach, but I don't think there's any denying he's a good coach. I'd prefer someone with a more fiery/less monotone temperament, but I think he's shown he's good enough to get teams to overperform their talent and that's what the team will need unless Tatum/Brown continue to ascend into Kawhi/LeBron/KD type level. He can only work with what he's given and right now it's not enough. He just needs to continue developing guys and not lose the locker room and that's all I can ask.

In terms of what they can actually do to "fix" themselves, I don't see much of an opportunity to overhaul the team enough to get into legit contender status this year. That's fine. They're not in a position where they have to rush it. They're relying on their youth way too much right now, but there is upside there. Nesmith, Pritchard, Robert Williams have been contributing of late, but inconsistently. There's value in letting them continue to try to fill roles they're not ready for and hope that hastens their development into being worthy of those roles. Langford hasn't gotten a chance due to injuries, but he has the potential to fit in with that grouping. Smart has been the biggest loss and I think had he not missed the last dozen games they'd be in the top 3 in the East and things wouldn't seem as dire.

The TPE lasts into the off-season so I'm 100% fine with doing just very minor moves involving seconds and filler (Teague/Green/Edwards) to add some veterans to give us a puncher's chance in a playoff series. Guys like Wayne Ellington, Alec Burks, Garrett Temple, Hassan Whiteside would be my targets. Don't have to dip into the TPE, don't cost an arm and a leg, but still can help.

If Ainge does dip into the TPE it's gotta be for guys on multi-year deals who effectively extend the TPE to preserve the possibility of adding bigger salary/impactful players down the line (so no Oladipo, Tucker, OPJ, Fournier). To add to that I don't think they can afford to pay an arm and a leg for anyone (so no John Collins, Vucevic, Jerami Grant unless their teams are selling which is unlikely). That leaves two guys I think that make sense and they're not new names: Harrison Barnes and Aaron Gordon. Both guys extend a large portion of the TPE, have the potential to play well enough to preserve the assets C's likely have to give up to get them (I'd assume a first and minor pieces if that) and they fit in well with what's already on the roster.

Basically I see the Celtics already locked into this roster for the next 2-3 years while waiting on an opportunity to make another big splash. Whether that's via the TPE, trading for AG/Barnes and combining him with TT next year to match salary or using Kemba in the next two years, they'll need all the assets they still have to their name to do so. That situation isn't the end of the world. C's have young guys that they can lean on for now as lottery tickets and bide their time given their two stars are locked in long-term and under 25. It's also not the best spot to be in having to acknowledge your potential is capped barring a lottery ticket hitting (especially given where they once were). With how frequently the NBA landscape changes though, waiting for that splash isn't like you're waiting on a bus that might never come. It's just about which one you can/will hop on. Might be foolish, but I'll trust Ainge to find the right one. And if he blows that, then we can talk about heads rolling.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#86 » by reload141 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:11 pm

We were 8-3 at the start of the season when Tatum went down (Who himself has said he's still trying to get his legs back as he gasses out quicker after having COVID)

Since then we've hand interchangeable starting line-ups and actually haven't started our real 5-man line-up (Kemba/Smart/Brown/Tatum/Theis or TT)

Nesmith is starting to come off the bench and give good minutes, still working Kemba back into form and Rob Williams is starting to really emerge.

Honestly, I just want to see this team healthy for a good 10 game stretch to really determine anything.

I don't think we can move Kemba ATM anyway we need to play him and get his form back and he was on a role before his last game so let's continue that and look at the offseason on what we can do with him.

Sure a Barnes or AG move would be ideal (Probably more Barnes for me) to help as a quality wing which is what we really need (I actually don't mind our TT/Theis/RWIII rotation as they each bring something different to the table)

But the cost of a Barnes trade is what, one of Langford or Nesmith plus another 1st I'm guessing? If we don't move one of Langford or Nesmith in the deal then one of them is going to be really limited with minutes going forward.

So in summary; nothing drastic yet.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#87 » by stinger14 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:20 pm

Not up to speed on all of the rules on using a TPE in a trade. Can Boston add picks to the TPE in a deal? What is the largest contract Boston can take back on that massive TPE?
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#88 » by zimpy27 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:31 pm

stinger14 wrote:Not up to speed on all of the rules on using a TPE in a trade. Can Boston add picks to the TPE in a deal? What is the largest contract Boston can take back on that massive TPE?


27.5m is biggest single year salary for TPE.
Yes you can add picks and swaps to a TPE but you can't add contracts.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#89 » by stinger14 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:45 pm

zimpy27 wrote:
stinger14 wrote:Not up to speed on all of the rules on using a TPE in a trade. Can Boston add picks to the TPE in a deal? What is the largest contract Boston can take back on that massive TPE?


27.5m is biggest single year salary for TPE.
Yes you can add picks and swaps to a TPE but you can't add contracts.


Okay, Thanks
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#90 » by Texas Chuck » Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:59 pm

stinger14 wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:
stinger14 wrote:Not up to speed on all of the rules on using a TPE in a trade. Can Boston add picks to the TPE in a deal? What is the largest contract Boston can take back on that massive TPE?


27.5m is biggest single year salary for TPE.
Yes you can add picks and swaps to a TPE but you can't add contracts.


Okay, Thanks



Just for clarity, other contracts can be in the deal they just can't be combined with the TPE to take back a player making more than the TPE. Sort of the best way to remember that is to understand that a TPE is never traded, it's generated any time you are over the cap and send out more salary than you take back.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#91 » by stinger14 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:09 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
stinger14 wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:
27.5m is biggest single year salary for TPE.
Yes you can add picks and swaps to a TPE but you can't add contracts.


Okay, Thanks



Just for clarity, other contracts can be in the deal they just can't be combined with the TPE to take back a player making more than the TPE. Sort of the best way to remember that is to understand that a TPE is never traded, it's generated any time you are over the cap and send out more salary than you take back.


So, for example a trade like this would work because Oladipo fits under the TPE

Houston gets: TPE, picks, T. Thompson
Boston gets: Oladipo, PJ Tucker
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#92 » by zimpy27 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:29 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
stinger14 wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:
27.5m is biggest single year salary for TPE.
Yes you can add picks and swaps to a TPE but you can't add contracts.


Okay, Thanks



Just for clarity, other contracts can be in the deal they just can't be combined with the TPE to take back a player making more than the TPE. Sort of the best way to remember that is to understand that a TPE is never traded, it's generated any time you are over the cap and send out more salary than you take back.


I always imagined that it was traded. Like you trade a player to a team with cap space and the team trades you back cap space in return in the form of a TPE. But then the TPE isn't traded once created.

Is trading contracts with a TPE and non-simultaneous trade?
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#93 » by Resistance » Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:17 am

stinger14 wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:
stinger14 wrote:
Okay, Thanks



Just for clarity, other contracts can be in the deal they just can't be combined with the TPE to take back a player making more than the TPE. Sort of the best way to remember that is to understand that a TPE is never traded, it's generated any time you are over the cap and send out more salary than you take back.


So, for example a trade like this would work because Oladipo fits under the TPE

Houston gets: TPE, picks, T. Thompson
Boston gets: Oladipo, PJ Tucker




Yes provided that Boston has an available roster spot so they can do a one (Thompson) out and two (Victor Oladipo & Tucker) in trade.

86. How do simultaneous trades work? How much salary can a team take back in a simultaneous trade?

However, there must be enough roster spots for the incoming players. A team with a full roster of 15 players cannot trade one player for two players without first waiving a player on its roster (or sending him away in another trade). This team could not acquire two players and simultaneously waive one of the incoming players.


If they don't have an available roster spot for the one out and two in trade, then something needs to happen such as:

* Waive a player to open a roster spot

* Send another player to Houston so the trade becomes a two in and two out trade which keeps the roster numbers in balance

* Trade a player to a third team that has an open roster spot and could just absorb the player from Boston
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#94 » by Fencer reregistered » Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:21 am

zimpy27 wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:
stinger14 wrote:
Okay, Thanks



Just for clarity, other contracts can be in the deal they just can't be combined with the TPE to take back a player making more than the TPE. Sort of the best way to remember that is to understand that a TPE is never traded, it's generated any time you are over the cap and send out more salary than you take back.


I always imagined that it was traded. Like you trade a player to a team with cap space and the team trades you back cap space in return in the form of a TPE. But then the TPE isn't traded once created.

Is trading contracts with a TPE and non-simultaneous trade?


I believe the definition of a "non-simultaneous trade" is pretty much that it relies on a TPE.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#95 » by stinger14 » Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:45 am

Resistance wrote:
stinger14 wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:

Just for clarity, other contracts can be in the deal they just can't be combined with the TPE to take back a player making more than the TPE. Sort of the best way to remember that is to understand that a TPE is never traded, it's generated any time you are over the cap and send out more salary than you take back.


So, for example a trade like this would work because Oladipo fits under the TPE

Houston gets: TPE, picks, T. Thompson
Boston gets: Oladipo, PJ Tucker




Yes provided that Boston has an available roster spot so they can do a one (Thompson) out and two (Victor Oladipo & Tucker) in trade.

86. How do simultaneous trades work? How much salary can a team take back in a simultaneous trade?

However, there must be enough roster spots for the incoming players. A team with a full roster of 15 players cannot trade one player for two players without first waiving a player on its roster (or sending him away in another trade). This team could not acquire two players and simultaneously waive one of the incoming players.


If they don't have an available roster spot for the one out and two in trade, then something needs to happen such as:

* Waive a player to open a roster spot

* Send another player to Houston so the trade becomes a two in and two out trade which keeps the roster numbers in balance

* Trade a player to a third team that has an open roster spot and could just absorb the player from Boston


Nice, Thanks
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#96 » by StreakyJ » Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:00 am

Minnesota gets: Kemba, TThompson
Cleveland gets: D'Angelo, Rubio, CZeller
Boston gets: Rozier, Drummond,
Charlotte gets: KLove, EDavis, JMcGee

Benefits:
MINNESONTA: Kemba gets back to being Kemba with KAT to space the floor and offer pick'n'pop. Wolves move off the millenial twin flop Russell/KAT and the Rubio reunion flop. TThompson gives professional defender to cover KAT defencies. Kemba opens more looks for developoing Edwards with penetrate/dish than Russell did. I like Kemba/Beasley/Edwards ... more energy.

CLEVELAND:
D'Angelo gets to be the off-ball scorer that is more his strength than primary ball-handling, which Sexton excels at. Russell also an Ohio State alum, so fan base is forgiving to his overpay, though he is a proven scorer as to receive some solid value in exchange for Drummond's slim market. Sexton/Russell/Allen not the worst young core to keep building up around. Rubio answers backup perimeter question solidly and serves valuable mentor to Sexton. Zeller backup for Allen and expiring contract. End of KLove era, will cost them some draft picks, but overall Cleveland looks better to build.

BOSTON:
Scary Terry returns to build on past playoff success with Boston as a tough, physical attacking guard to play 1 or 2 and fit in as 1st/2nd/3rd option on offense as the flow dictates. Drummond rental for paint domination to save everyone game energy to finish 4th quarters strong. Built for playoffs. Rozier/Smart/Tatum/Brown/Drummond is a tough out.

CHARLOTTE:
Needs the floor-spacing of KLove on the frontcourt, who is still a solid rebounder (change of scenery helps). They have the cap to gamble w/o Rozier and Zeller's cap gone and LaMelo rookie contract. Good timing with Hayward is returning to form to carry more load on offense. JaVale and Ed Davis shore up the frontcourt. Charlotte could ask for TPrince or Osman as a tax for KLove as to get a proven SF in exchange for a couple of their SF to relieve a glut. JaVale and EDavis expiring contracts.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#97 » by spankymoore7 » Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:32 am

No way Boston gets Rozier and Drummond by sending out Kemba's contract. Charlotte isn't losing Rozier just to get stuck with Love's contact

StreakyJ wrote:Minnesota gets: Kemba, TThompson
Cleveland gets: D'Angelo, Rubio, CZeller
Boston gets: Rozier, Drummond,
Charlotte gets: KLove, EDavis, JMcGee

Benefits:
MINNESONTA: Kemba gets back to being Kemba with KAT to space the floor and offer pick'n'pop. Wolves move off the millenial twin flop Russell/KAT and the Rubio reunion flop. TThompson gives professional defender to cover KAT defencies. Kemba opens more looks for developoing Edwards with penetrate/dish than Russell did. I like Kemba/Beasley/Edwards ... more energy.

CLEVELAND:
D'Angelo gets to be the off-ball scorer that is more his strength than primary ball-handling, which Sexton excels at. Russell also an Ohio State alum, so fan base is forgiving to his overpay, though he is a proven scorer as to receive some solid value in exchange for Drummond's slim market. Sexton/Russell/Allen not the worst young core to keep building up around. Rubio answers backup perimeter question solidly and serves valuable mentor to Sexton. Zeller backup for Allen and expiring contract. End of KLove era, will cost them some draft picks, but overall Cleveland looks better to build.

BOSTON:
Scary Terry returns to build on past playoff success with Boston as a tough, physical attacking guard to play 1 or 2 and fit in as 1st/2nd/3rd option on offense as the flow dictates. Drummond rental for paint domination to save everyone game energy to finish 4th quarters strong. Built for playoffs. Rozier/Smart/Tatum/Brown/Drummond is a tough out.

CHARLOTTE:
Needs the floor-spacing of KLove on the frontcourt, who is still a solid rebounder (change of scenery helps). They have the cap to gamble w/o Rozier and Zeller's cap gone and LaMelo rookie contract. Good timing with Hayward is returning to form to carry more load on offense. JaVale and Ed Davis shore up the frontcourt. Charlotte could ask for TPrince or Osman as a tax for KLove as to get a proven SF in exchange for a couple of their SF to relieve a glut. JaVale and EDavis expiring contracts.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#98 » by stinger14 » Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:53 am

Going for 3 different trades here, with trade 3 having two different options to use the TPE.

Trade 1:
Boston gets: PJ Tucker
Charlotte gets : Daniel Theis
Houston gets: Bismack Biyombo, (2) 2nds - 1 from Charlotte, 1 from Boston

PJ gives Boston a good option off the bench for minutes at PF and at center in small lineups. Theis gives Charlotte a better option than Biyombo. Houston gets a couple 2nds

Trade 2:
Boston gets: Al Horford, George Hill
OKC gets: Tristan Thompson, Kemba Walker

Exchange of PG/C combos, and bad contracts in Horford and Kemba. Kemba could be routed to a 3rd team, or spend time in OKC to rebuild future trade value. Horford back to Boston to fill a void on the middle.

Trade 3: TPE option 1
Boston gets: Victor Oladipo
Houston gets: TPE, picks?

Houston gets the big TPE, and a pick or two. Boston adds Oladipo to strengthen their wing play.

Hill / Pritchard
Oladipo / Smart
Brown / Nesmith
Tatum / Tucker
Horford / Williams

Trade 3: TPE option 2 (another option keeping trades 1 and 2 the same as above).

Boston gets: Harrison Barnes
Sacramento gets: TPE, pick

Smart / Pritchard
Brown / Hill
Tatum / Nesmith
Barnes / Tucker
Horford / Williams
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#99 » by StreakyJ » Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:14 am

Draft picks draft picks draft picks they get for taking on Love. Unless you're telling me Devonte Graham is formally coming off the bench, problem solved, because Rozier is a starter and also a player I doubt Charlotte resigns after next year, so actually better to sell high now. Charlotte is small market and needs to think more like Oklahoma City ... and no they weren't winning a
Championship this year at all, though some fun moments. Charlotte can resign CZeller offseason if it's a big deal. Love's actually a better suited 5 in today's smallerish ball league which also more hides his defensive liabilities. He brings much needed frontcourt shooting, pick'n'pop, smart passing, spacing, and for chrissakes he's rested for years now, he should have gas in the tank for 2 solid years for which his contract does not appreciate and falls back to $28M final year, a nice buffer on no balloon.

So tell Ainge he f'd up badly on the Hayward trade whoever he tried to appease (Stevens?) creating that epic perimeter glut, and that Brown/Tatum are too good to last together much longer (my gut is Tatum is not long the Celtics, though they'll unwisely move Brown instead), and that this isn't 1986 a.k.a. though still a fervent local fan base, Boston ain't really an A+ free agent destination, spent a winter there lately? So bring Rozier home for playoff run with the boys and a chance to lock him up in his prime, because Terry may not carry a franchise, but he is a damn solid player for Kemba who is killing C's with his constant indecisiveness which is getting hard to watch anymore a.k.a. pay me $35M I'll figure it out. If it takes a draft pick or two to officially bury the lingering stench of that Hayward corpse AND you still end up playoff-formidable, well then he who laughs last ... ...

Regarding Drummond, teams can "get" him if they want him, they don't, so buyer's market for C's there, no grand conspiracy. Pretty sure Theis has a better win-share over departing TThompson anyways.

Boston used to make runs with Rozier, playing off mojo akin to a baby prime Golden State going for the jugular, demoralizing opponents, fun to watch ... with Kemba that all stopped. They need easier buckets in their life again, as Tatum/Brown's 1-on-1 skills aren't winning a championship with this roster.

And for some reason I can see Drummond squeezing into Wally's for some Jazz. And Jalen in the Garden. And Tatum left on a depleted Boston roster exposing him as lucky to have play with the Kieth Smarts of the world doing the dirty basketball work.

Do the trade. Move on from bad trades. Kemba sucks for Boston. Doesn't take a genius to figure that out.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#100 » by Mr Loggins » Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:54 pm

This is tough because Boston is shockingly short of assetts. I’m not sure who the targets would be, but I think true have to do what Cleveland did in 2014 and find vets that have ran their course with other teams and have seemingly little value (Shumpert, JR Smith) and hope they complement your team.

Boston needs a third playmaker/shot creater. Lonzo Ball might work, but with how’s he’s been playing lately don’t think Pels would move him.

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