Boston ain't right -- How to fix?

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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#41 » by DroseReturnChi » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:23 pm

cjmcallist wrote:Man I dunno how to fix BOS. But, I agree with the sentiment on picking a target - I never understood why BOS would sign a 29 yr old Kemba, when their franchise player was 21. Just doesn't match up. Even the best are hardly ready to compete for a 'chip at 21/22.

So, decide if Tatum and Brown can win you the title NOW or in 2024. And if it's 2024, that's okay! Shoot - OKC is targeting the 2024 playoffs and the 2027* championship.

It matters, because if Tatum/Brown duo can't win right now (I think clearly they can't), then you acquire players that you think will help you win in 2024, not right now. Probably that means you look to target RFA's this offseason, or you re-stock with currency (draft picks) to buy the next player that fits your target.


Boston is just very hard to fix to improve.
High usage players like kemba who play no D just makes no sense I bet he is a negative for the celtics going forward.
They need guys like Haliburton I would give up every asset.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#42 » by pacers33granger » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:31 pm

Boston is one of the few playoff teams who can actually trade their picks. So that helps. But Ainge is completely out of owed future firsts at this point and, outside of Pritchard (and maybe the Williams), the picks made have lost a ton of value.

Their best bet to get a true impact player is by using Smart. But that creates another hole potentially. They aren't in as bad a spot as some think, but they're certainly in a much worse spot than they'd hope to be as Brown/Tatum start getting paid.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#43 » by Buzzard » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:49 pm

pacers33granger wrote:Boston is one of the few playoff teams who can actually trade their picks. So that helps. But Ainge is completely out of owed future firsts at this point and, outside of Pritchard (and maybe the Williams), the picks made have lost a ton of value.

Their best bet to get a true impact player is by using Smart. But that creates another hole potentially. They aren't in as bad a spot as some think, but they're certainly in a much worse spot than they'd hope to be as Brown/Tatum start getting paid.

I don't see them as a treadmill team. I do see them as a team in need of some help to take the next step. Smart and a pick or two could get that done. The issue is not who needs the picks, its who values Smart and the picks enough to send a big time big for.

I don't think Orlando sees Smart and a couple of picks in the 22 to 30 range worth Vuc. They are certainly not getting KAT for that type of package. Ainge shot his cap on Kemba and getting another impact player is a tough ask. Like I said in my other post, he needs to draft bigs from here on out and hope like hell he hits on one.

Otherwise they need a devastating injury to occur to a contender to even get to the championship.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#44 » by Xman » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:58 pm

BOS needs a big man - that is not a total slowpoke.
Who is available?

I see top 2 targets as Collins and Turner. Bamba or Vuc as a wldcard. Ticker and Dieng could help but do not move the meter enough.

Hou - Tucker - small and old but cheap and will help.
ATL - Collins - the solution I love.
OKC - Horford - I do not see a rerun.
SAC - Whiteside or Holmes - why bother.
MEM - Dieng, maybe as a better role player.
ORL - Bamba - Guy has not had a fair shot. Could be a unicorn.
IND - MTurner - another guy like Collins that could put them over the top.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#45 » by Patsfan1081 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:13 pm

Xman wrote:BOS needs a big man - that is not a total slowpoke.
Who is available?

I see top 2 targets as Collins and Turner. Bamba or Vuc as a wldcard. Ticker and Dieng could help but do not move the meter enough.

Hou - Tucker - small and old but cheap and will help.
ATL - Collins - the solution I love.
OKC - Horford - I do not see a rerun.
SAC - Whiteside or Holmes - why bother.
MEM - Dieng, maybe as a better role player.
ORL - Bamba - Guy has not had a fair shot. Could be a unicorn.
IND - MTurner - another guy like Collins that could put them over the top.


They have R Williams if he can stay healthy(which might be asking too much). Teams have figured out to trap either Jay and their offense collapses. They need one or two vet scorers off the bench and need to clear out some of those late picks Ainge made. He drafted three undersized point guards in a span of two years, puzzling to say the least. Should have moved some of those picks when they had value.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#46 » by pacers33granger » Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:19 pm

Xman wrote:BOS needs a big man - that is not a total slowpoke.
Who is available?

I see top 2 targets as Collins and Turner.

IND - MTurner - another guy like Collins that could put them over the top.


That ship has sailed. Myles has been playing the best ball of his career and took the trade rumors in stride. Plus he's been a leader for the team and is one of our few guys who should be considered anything more than average on the defensive end.

Boston doesn't have the pieces to entice Indy now. They missed out on the perfect storm of a "star" itching to come home and a team struggling to figure out its direction with its incumbent star being non-committal. Boston doesn't have a defensive PF to send back. Would love Smart, but our wing rotation is crowded as is. Theis would be useless for us as he could not play next to Domas.

Boston could certainly offer Smart plus picks or prospects and it would be an overpay on value, but Indy very likely still declines.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#47 » by Buzzard » Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:21 pm

Xman wrote:BOS needs a big man - that is not a total slowpoke.
Who is available?

I see top 2 targets as Collins and Turner. Bamba or Vuc as a wldcard. Ticker and Dieng could help but do not move the meter enough.

Hou - Tucker - small and old but cheap and will help.
ATL - Collins - the solution I love.
OKC - Horford - I do not see a rerun.
SAC - Whiteside or Holmes - why bother.
MEM - Dieng, maybe as a better role player.
ORL - Bamba - Guy has not had a fair shot. Could be a unicorn.
IND - MTurner - another guy like Collins that could put them over the top.

I think its painfully obvious Ainge no longer has the assets to trade for Collins or Vuc. That ship probably sailed with him using all his picks up and the Kemba signing. Turner is a outside possibility. But Turner is playing like a DPOY candidate; while Indy is sitting as a 4th seed in the early season.

I think they could make a move for everyone else on your list.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#48 » by blind prophet » Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:28 pm

Please take Barnes, we need to clean house in Sacramento.

Heavily protected first is enough.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#49 » by SmartWentCrazy » Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:41 pm

blind prophet wrote:Please take Barnes, we need to clean house in Sacramento.

Heavily protected first is enough.


If I had to guess, this will be one move. Guessing the team consolidates one of Theis/TT to try to duck the tax as well.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#50 » by Buzzard » Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:42 pm

pacers33granger wrote:
Xman wrote:BOS needs a big man - that is not a total slowpoke.
Who is available?

I see top 2 targets as Collins and Turner.

IND - MTurner - another guy like Collins that could put them over the top.


That ship has sailed. Myles has been playing the best ball of his career and took the trade rumors in stride. Plus he's been a leader for the team and is one of our few guys who should be considered anything more than average on the defensive end.

Boston doesn't have the pieces to entice Indy now. They missed out on the perfect storm of a "star" itching to come home and a team struggling to figure out its direction with its incumbent star being non-committal. Boston doesn't have a defensive PF to send back. Would love Smart, but our wing rotation is crowded as is. Theis would be useless for us as he could not play next to Domas.

Boston could certainly offer Smart plus picks or prospects and it would be an overpay on value, but Indy very likely still declines.

The further along we get into Smart's contract the less value he has as a primary building block. He is a UFA after 2021/22 and will probably be a highly sought after defensive role player/specialist.

Smart may see himself as a lifelong Celtic. But if someone offers him 4 years and 60 million on his next deal, he may rethink that.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#51 » by MagicBagley18 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:02 am

1 thing I would not do is overpay right now for players that only marginally change the teams ceiling this year. I’d be opportunistic and make some depth moves if they present themselves but giving up 2 1sts or something for average players only for the team to finish as the 3rd seed instead of the 4th isn’t worth it.

I think with the play-in tourney teams are going to want to keep their rosters intact as opposed to sell and the sellers are going to have to be really compensated to move players. There’s no doubt the Celtics need help but I feel in the offseason when teams rosters are fluid is a time to really do a roster overhaul and have flexibility with the tpe.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#52 » by Prospect Dong » Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:54 am

hugepatsfan wrote:The pieces around the Tatum/Brown don't really fit. Ainge hasn't done a good job of building a complementary team. Now, to be fair, coming into '19-20, Tatum and Brown were both coming off down years. Brown especially wasn't someone anyone was looking at as a this type of scorer. And even entering this year, Brown has outplayed anyone's expectations. Definitely a fair reason why they aren't ideally build around Tatum/Brown being two dominant iso scorers is because it wasn't until this year that you really saw any indication that Brown would be one. Having two of those guys vs 1 makes a big stylistic shift

Kemba... There's the obvious issues that he's just playing like ***. But stylistically, assuming he's right, he is an on ball scorer. Not ideal fit next to Brown/Tatum when they're playing as they are. Again, with the '19-20 version of Brown, you need more on ball scoring besides Tatum. Now with Brown's emergence, this skill set isn't as much a fit.

Marcus Smart... for all the **** he gets, his shooting has become solid. But his strength as an offensive player, despite the perception of him as a ball hogging chucker, is that he's a great POINT GUARD. Good passer/playmaker out of the pick and roll. However, that playmaking isn't as useful if all of Brown/Kemba/Tatum are on ball guys. Those guys all like to run iso rather than be set up.

Grant Williams' offensive profile is that of a Boris Diaw type. He isn't a C&S guy. He isn't a crash the glass guy. With iso-centric, "my turn your turn" offense that Kemba/Tatum/Brown play, G Will's skill set is just a total dud.

Nemsith was considered a one trick pony as a shooter. He profiled as a guy who excels coming off screens and plays like that. BOS doesn't feature action like that so wtf was the point of drafting him if you won't use him how he should be? To be fair, he's emerging pretty well over the last couple of weeks so I wouldn't write him off.

The Center rotation... Thompson/Theis/R Williams are all good players. But they are all 5s. None of them should be playing much PF as they have tried. It's a waste of asset allocation to have all 3 of them.

They clearly need a shuffle in their roster. Need to put guys in position to excel. Certain things will be constant...

1) You are not breaking up Brown/Tatum. You don't do that as a first choice for obvious reasons.
2) Kemba doesn't seem to be going anywhere. His value is in the tank and I just don't see a team that he fits on at his current salary with so many years left. It doesn't make sense for BOS to use its assets to dump him because then how do they get the other pieces around Brown/Tatum? You just hand on and hope the chemistry/roles settle out. Down the line, explore this. But doesn't seem feasible for now.

The issue seems to be getting the right fits around Brown/Tatum as the iso scorers they've become. So a move for another star just doesn't seem like the move, if we're being honest. They need the right role players. So here's the routes I'd go...

Trade #1

BOS gets: F PJ Tucker
CHA gets: C Daniel Theis
HOU gets: stuff from BOS and/or CHA

Hornets need help at center and has cap to absorb Theis, who is a good player worth giving up some 2nd rounders for (his bird rights a nice get because will make re-signing possible while keeping flexibility). For BOS, he's miscast as a PF. All the things they ask him to do here, Tucker is just better at.

Trade #2

BOS gets: C Al Horford (taken into Hayward TPE)
OKC gets: C Tristan Thompson (taken into Gallinari TPE)

BOS gets a more complete 5. They lost the rebounding, but get better passing, shooting and a guy who's better defending the more dominant big men one on one. OKC saves almost $60M and reduce the Gallo TPE from $19.5M to about $10M, but add a new $27.5M TPE for Horford.

Trade #3

BOS gets: G/F Josh Hart
NO gets: G Romeo Langford, F Grant Williams

Celtics turn two recent 1st rounders into a good bench player who can add some 2-way play. NO probably reluctant to pay him as they'd rather preserve cap space for a big addition down the line.

New Boston rotation:

Kemba / Pritchard
Brown / Smart
Tatum / Hart
Tucker / Ojeleye
Horford / R Williams

I think this group fits better. Not going to want to run that bench group out there all 5 at a time but with a first unit scorer I think this fits well. It's stronger and better matched both offensively and defensively.


I just wanted to say this was a really, smart informative take, in the context of a thread that's pretty good overall. All those trades are well thought-out and pretty balanced, IMO. And I think they make Boston a much better team this season, if that's the goal.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#53 » by Prospect Dong » Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:58 am

Threezus wrote:
BK_2020 wrote:
Threezus wrote:Outside of Trae, Capela, and Hunter is their any combination of players and picks the Hawks can make or offer to get a Jaylen Brown from them? I'll let you build the package to see what it would look like that it would take to make you feel happy lol.

Would need Hunter + Okongwu + something.


Damnit man can't we do something besides Hunter? Maybe like a Collins + Reddish + OO + Rondo if ya want him back XD


Am I not reading this right? Is this a trade for Jaylen Brown, and the Hawks are trying to take Hunter off the table, along with Trae and Capela? Brown's not the Brow, but he's younger, way, way cheaper, and happy with his current team. A package for him would look a lot more like what the Pels got, IMO.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#54 » by Prospect Dong » Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:02 am

FWIW, I think Tatum, Brown and Smart, coached by Stephens, could easily form the nucleus of a contender for the next several years. You don't want to push all-in just yet, but you should be prepared to shift some future potential for guys that help you in the next couple of seasons, based on that core.

I think you need to take advantage of the residual value of all those picks Ainge made who look mediocre to bad, but may just be unable to show what they've got playing for a really good team from the start of their careers. You're not going to get sticker price for any of them, but their could easily be another Marcus Smart somewhere in there, and a couple of them could form the basis of a package for an above average starter, IMO.

Also, as I say everywhere, every time, you can have Dieng for free. :D
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#55 » by Prokorov » Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:29 am

MagicBagley18 wrote:1 thing I would not do is overpay right now for players that only marginally change the teams ceiling this year. I’d be opportunistic and make some depth moves if they present themselves but giving up 2 1sts or something for average players only for the team to finish as the 3rd seed instead of the 4th isn’t worth it.

I think with the play-in tourney teams are going to want to keep their rosters intact as opposed to sell and the sellers are going to have to be really compensated to move players. There’s no doubt the Celtics need help but I feel in the offseason when teams rosters are fluid is a time to really do a roster overhaul and have flexibility with the tpe.


finishing 3rd doesnt come with 0 value. Tatun/Brown/Smart are all happy now. how long playing with a G-league bench and not getting closer to a title before one of them starts looking around and listeneing to whispers of greener pastures?

Also, what are a pair of future firsts really worth? so ainge doesnt get to draft the next yubasele?
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#56 » by Prospect Dong » Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:33 am

Prokorov wrote:
MagicBagley18 wrote:1 thing I would not do is overpay right now for players that only marginally change the teams ceiling this year. I’d be opportunistic and make some depth moves if they present themselves but giving up 2 1sts or something for average players only for the team to finish as the 3rd seed instead of the 4th isn’t worth it.

I think with the play-in tourney teams are going to want to keep their rosters intact as opposed to sell and the sellers are going to have to be really compensated to move players. There’s no doubt the Celtics need help but I feel in the offseason when teams rosters are fluid is a time to really do a roster overhaul and have flexibility with the tpe.


finishing 3rd doesnt come with 0 value. Tatun/Brown/Smart are all happy now. how long playing with a G-league bench and not getting closer to a title before one of them starts looking around and listeneing to whispers of greener pastures?

Also, what are a pair of future firsts really worth? so ainge doesnt get to draft the next yubasele?


Yeah, once you're a fringe contender I think there's real value in getting even incrementally better right now. Most of it's a small change to your existing small chance of doing better than you think - Boston's made two ECFs they weren't really supposed to - and part of it's just accumulating experience and good feelings. It looks good to bet on your guys when your guys are worth betting on.

Sure, if you have a really firm "let's sit this year out because of [good reason]", accumulate assets and make our big splash next year, that might make sense, but you shouldn't just keep pushing those assets into the future because your top guys are only 19/20/21/22. You're a ways down that path now, and this is how it looks.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#57 » by NYG » Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:42 am

Who is the most talented fit they get for ‘21, ‘23 and ‘25 1sts that fits salary wise in the TPE/Hard Cap?
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#58 » by MagicBagley18 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:53 am

Prokorov wrote:
MagicBagley18 wrote:1 thing I would not do is overpay right now for players that only marginally change the teams ceiling this year. I’d be opportunistic and make some depth moves if they present themselves but giving up 2 1sts or something for average players only for the team to finish as the 3rd seed instead of the 4th isn’t worth it.

I think with the play-in tourney teams are going to want to keep their rosters intact as opposed to sell and the sellers are going to have to be really compensated to move players. There’s no doubt the Celtics need help but I feel in the offseason when teams rosters are fluid is a time to really do a roster overhaul and have flexibility with the tpe.


finishing 3rd doesnt come with 0 value. Tatun/Brown/Smart are all happy now. how long playing with a G-league bench and not getting closer to a title before one of them starts looking around and listeneing to whispers of greener pastures?

Also, what are a pair of future firsts really worth? so ainge doesnt get to draft the next yubasele?


In a league where half of the teams can’t trade their 1st road picks being able to control your own even with them not being great absolutely means something.

And no one is saying kick the can down the road for the foreseeable future, I’m talking about 3 months when deals are always easier to make in the offseason. Both brown and Tatum are locked in for long term and we are always away before that happens.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#59 » by Prokorov » Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:07 am

MagicBagley18 wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
MagicBagley18 wrote:1 thing I would not do is overpay right now for players that only marginally change the teams ceiling this year. I’d be opportunistic and make some depth moves if they present themselves but giving up 2 1sts or something for average players only for the team to finish as the 3rd seed instead of the 4th isn’t worth it.

I think with the play-in tourney teams are going to want to keep their rosters intact as opposed to sell and the sellers are going to have to be really compensated to move players. There’s no doubt the Celtics need help but I feel in the offseason when teams rosters are fluid is a time to really do a roster overhaul and have flexibility with the tpe.


finishing 3rd doesnt come with 0 value. Tatun/Brown/Smart are all happy now. how long playing with a G-league bench and not getting closer to a title before one of them starts looking around and listeneing to whispers of greener pastures?

Also, what are a pair of future firsts really worth? so ainge doesnt get to draft the next yubasele?


In a league where half of the teams can’t trade their 1st road picks being able to control your own even with them not being great absolutely means something.

And no one is saying kick the can down the road for the foreseeable future, I’m talking about 3 months when deals are always easier to make in the offseason. Both brown and Tatum are locked in for long term and we are always away before that happens.


I'm not saying they need to make a deal this season, maybe just punt 2021 cause its a weird year anyhow. But passing on NBA level role guys when you really lack depth to hold on to draft picks you thus far have not had great success into turning into NBA level role players to me seems less then wise.

I get Tatum/Brown are young and locked up and happy. but we've seen how being under contract doesnt mean much when someone wants out. im not saying knee jerk selling the farm to put a fraud-star next tot hat duo... but maybe do better then teague/langford/thompson as role guys around them.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#60 » by NYG » Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:16 am

Eric Bledsoe, Lonzo Ball and J.J. Redick for Javonte Green, Semi Ojeleye and Kemba Walker?

Does Boston need to add a pick or upgrade the prospects attached?

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