Boston ain't right -- How to fix?

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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#61 » by MagicBagley18 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:18 am

Prokorov wrote:
MagicBagley18 wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
finishing 3rd doesnt come with 0 value. Tatun/Brown/Smart are all happy now. how long playing with a G-league bench and not getting closer to a title before one of them starts looking around and listeneing to whispers of greener pastures?

Also, what are a pair of future firsts really worth? so ainge doesnt get to draft the next yubasele?


In a league where half of the teams can’t trade their 1st road picks being able to control your own even with them not being great absolutely means something.

And no one is saying kick the can down the road for the foreseeable future, I’m talking about 3 months when deals are always easier to make in the offseason. Both brown and Tatum are locked in for long term and we are always away before that happens.


I'm not saying they need to make a deal this season, maybe just punt 2021 cause its a weird year anyhow. But passing on NBA level role guys when you really lack depth to hold on to draft picks you thus far have not had great success into turning into NBA level role players to me seems less then wise.

I get Tatum/Brown are young and locked up and happy. but we've seen how being under contract doesnt mean much when someone wants out. im not saying knee jerk selling the farm to put a fraud-star next tot hat duo... but maybe do better then teague/langford/thompson as role guys around them.


100% they should look to add some depth for sure
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#62 » by giannis and 1 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:55 am

Texas Chuck wrote:Now I'm not saying panic because despite a disappointing season and some terrible losses, they are only half a game out of a home court spot in the struggling Eastern Conference. They will be a solid playoff team though not a team that feels like they have a run in them.

But beyond the mediocre record its clear something just isn't right. Do they just miss Marcus Smart that much and when he comes back they will look like Boston again? Is Kemba not being Kemba dragging them down? Is it the we have a bunch of guys we play at center, but don't really have a center?

Is it time to think the unthinkable and consider a change with Danny or Brad? :o

They have that big TPE and all their picks and some young players of varying worth so they can definitely add a significant piece without giving anything up--just have to watch the hard cap. But is it time to do something more drastic yet?

They feel a lot like Dallas to me in that yeah they should come around a bit to more what we thought, but also that something just isn't right with the current mixes. That a major change is needed.

So talk me down on Boston or tell me what they should do.

It's pretty much everything you said. I hate Smart but he is a very effective player. Missing Hayward hurts a little too. Biggest thing is probably Walker being washed though.

Brown's development hasn't made up for these things.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#63 » by Fencer reregistered » Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:01 am

Godaddycurse wrote:
guille_4 wrote:I'd take a gamble with Westbrook.

Trade Kemba for Westbrook. Bigger contract but IMO higher potential. It's risky but with Kyrie, Harden and KD there's no point on playing it safe, you're not getting out of the Eastern Conference with them and Philly.

They both have this season and next guaranteed, and a player option in 2022-2023. Westbrook's contract is around $43M and Kemba's around $35M per season.

Or what about John Wall for Kemba?


i'd take a gamble on wall before westbrook


Wall started being my thought for the evening a few minutes ago, when I saw an article that made me think the Celtics had perhaps tried to trade Kemba for him.

Anyhow, besides the obvious Tatum/Brown/Smart, Theis is still developing (on offense -- he's a pretty finished product on D), and the list of good-looking but still unproven young players currently stands at 4, namely Robert Williams (outstanding player on a minutes restriction), Nesmith, Langford (when back from injury) and Pritchard.

(Note that few rookies in the NBA have produced as much as Nesmith or especially Pritchard this soon after they were drafted, on the technicality that most seasons games didn't even start this soon after the draft.)
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#64 » by Fencer reregistered » Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:06 am

Prokorov wrote:
Buzzard wrote:Kemba, Brown, Tatum. They are a talented big 3, but they are a smallish big three. They have lacked talented size since Horford bolted. One draft theory tossed around a lot is you draft BPA when in the high lottery. Once you are on the edge of being a playoff team or are a playoff team, you start drafting for position.

I think Ainge should draft a big with every pick he has. Or trade his recent wing picks for a young big. Kemba is a not young; but Tatum and Brown are. Its not to late to think Boston can reset with those two as their future anchors and build some better paint presence around them.


Boston should have been in on jarret allen. Cavs got him for the bucks pick and he would have easily fit into the TPE.


You're probably right. But clearly the hesitancy is that they can't find enough minutes for the three centers they do have.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#65 » by Fencer reregistered » Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:08 am

Scoot McGroot wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
Buzzard wrote:Kemba, Brown, Tatum. They are a talented big 3, but they are a smallish big three. They have lacked talented size since Horford bolted. One draft theory tossed around a lot is you draft BPA when in the high lottery. Once you are on the edge of being a playoff team or are a playoff team, you start drafting for position.

I think Ainge should draft a big with every pick he has. Or trade his recent wing picks for a young big. Kemba is a not young; but Tatum and Brown are. Its not to late to think Boston can reset with those two as their future anchors and build some better paint presence around them.


Boston should have been in on jarret allen. Cavs got him for the bucks pick and he would have easily fit into the TPE.


The Cavs also ate the Taurean Waller-Prince contract as value in that deal. So, pick, and taking on bad salary for Allen. In theory, Boston could've done similar, but would've required TWP on the books.


Ahh. Boston would likely never have done that without dumping Thompson's salary to somebody (who couldn't be Cleveland).
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#66 » by Fencer reregistered » Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:09 am

Threezus wrote:Outside of Trae, Capela, and Hunter is their any combination of players and picks the Hawks can make or offer to get a Jaylen Brown from them? I'll let you build the package to see what it would look like that it would take to make you feel happy lol.


Not a chance.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#67 » by Fencer reregistered » Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:10 am

BK_2020 wrote:
Threezus wrote:Outside of Trae, Capela, and Hunter is their any combination of players and picks the Hawks can make or offer to get a Jaylen Brown from them? I'll let you build the package to see what it would look like that it would take to make you feel happy lol.

Would need Hunter + Okongwu + something.


Not even then.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#68 » by Buzzard » Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:45 am

Fencer reregistered wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
Buzzard wrote:Kemba, Brown, Tatum. They are a talented big 3, but they are a smallish big three. They have lacked talented size since Horford bolted. One draft theory tossed around a lot is you draft BPA when in the high lottery. Once you are on the edge of being a playoff team or are a playoff team, you start drafting for position.

I think Ainge should draft a big with every pick he has. Or trade his recent wing picks for a young big. Kemba is a not young; but Tatum and Brown are. Its not to late to think Boston can reset with those two as their future anchors and build some better paint presence around them.


Boston should have been in on jarret allen. Cavs got him for the bucks pick and he would have easily fit into the TPE.


You're probably right. But clearly the hesitancy is that they can't find enough minutes for the three centers they do have.

The issue is obviously talent. Those centers are not that talented. Thompson was good enough to help the Cavs. But peak LeBron, Kyrie, and Love is better than Tatum, Brown, and Kemba.

Disagree all you want, but no GM in their right mind is trading 30/31 year old LeBron for Tatum and Brown. Which is my point. They need to hit on a near all star big. Just like when they had Horford.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#69 » by Fencer reregistered » Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:53 am

Buzzard wrote:
Fencer reregistered wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
Boston should have been in on jarret allen. Cavs got him for the bucks pick and he would have easily fit into the TPE.


You're probably right. But clearly the hesitancy is that they can't find enough minutes for the three centers they do have.

The issue is obviously talent. Those centers are not that talented. Thompson was good enough to help the Cavs. But peak LeBron, Kyrie, and Love is better than Tatum, Brown, and Kemba.

Disagree all you want, but no GM in their right mind is trading 30/31 year old LeBron for Tatum and Brown. Which is my point. They need to hit on a near all star big. Just like when they had Horford.


That has a good chance of being Robert Williams, although there are obvious concerns about a guy who depends so heavily on athleticism and is on a minutes restriction for his hip.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#70 » by Buzzard » Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:02 am

Fencer reregistered wrote:
Buzzard wrote:
Fencer reregistered wrote:
You're probably right. But clearly the hesitancy is that they can't find enough minutes for the three centers they do have.

The issue is obviously talent. Those centers are not that talented. Thompson was good enough to help the Cavs. But peak LeBron, Kyrie, and Love is better than Tatum, Brown, and Kemba.

Disagree all you want, but no GM in their right mind is trading 30/31 year old LeBron for Tatum and Brown. Which is my point. They need to hit on a near all star big. Just like when they had Horford.


That has a good chance of being Robert Williams, although there are obvious concerns about a guy who depends so heavily on athleticism and is on a minutes restriction for his hip.

I thought the Celtics were close twice. Horfords last two years and then when Hayward was finally healthy last season. Horford's game fell off a cliff. So letting him walk looks like a solid decision. But Hayward is playing as well as ever.

Its going to be hard once Tatum's deal kicks in to replace Horford or Hayward. But good draft picks have panned out before in the late twenties and 2nd round.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#71 » by GoBobs » Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:24 am

The best players are more all star than superstar. They might be that some day but not there yet.

So to build something around Tatum and brown that will be a contender you need depth and role players who can defend.

If they would have kept Haywood and Rozier they would likely be there. Kemble doesn’t fit because he doesn’t give you and defense.

I would target lonzo ball, Aaron Gordon, Drummond, Stanley Johnson, keep Marcus smart and grant Williams
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#72 » by Resistance » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:26 am

GoBobs wrote:The best players are more all star than superstar. They might be that some day but not there yet.

So to build something around Tatum and brown that will be a contender you need depth and role players who can defend.

If they would have kept Haywood and Rozier they would likely be there. Kemble doesn’t fit because he doesn’t give you and defense.

I would target lonzo ball, Aaron Gordon, Drummond, Stanley Johnson, keep Marcus smart and grant Williams


If the team on the other side of the trade considers Walker a negative contract, then Boston is in a tough spot.

Compensation to make Walker somewhat neutral value and then more compensation for the positive value incoming player(s) is a trade that I have Ainge very reluctant to do.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#73 » by JediMasterRevan » Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:54 pm

Boston just needs a tweak.

The Frontcourt that alot of people worry about is a little overblown. Yeah we dont have great size to compete with someone like embiid, but who does?

Center position for the Celtics is
14th in PPG
4th in FG%
10th in 3pt%
10th in rebounds
7th in blocks
7th in steals
10th in defensive rating
14th in opponents points in the paint.


The Celtics problems are simple, imo.

Kemba is a great player but struggles playing with the Jays. There is too much duplication and working in the same floorspace between all three. As a result it just doesnt work.

Second issue is the bigger one. This teams Depth is horrible.

In terms of minutes per game
7th - Peyton Pritchard
8th - Semi Ojeleye
9th - Grant Williams
10th - Jeff Teague
11th - Aaron Nesmith
12th - Robert Williams
13th - Javonte Green

As you can see we have rookies and trash players logging heavy minutes,
Grant Williams should be a 8-10 minutes a game guy
the rookies should be about the same range 8-10 minutes
Teague shouldnt play
Robert Williams should play more
Green shouldnt play
Ojeleye should be 8-10 minutes a night at most

And those guys are playing between 15-22 minutes a game.


Smart out hurts obviously, but team needs to address depth. Especially the PF spot off the bench.




Improve team recipe is: (not speaking on if available or not)
1) trade away Kemba for a young bigman (PF) and depth on bench
1b) trade Kemba for a young PG who defends and Playmakes

2) Move Kemba to Bench and start smart
2b) Use TPE to fill starting linup with Kemba on Bench

I personally am leaning towards moving kemba to the bench and letting smart and the Jays play together, They work. Use the TPE to nab either a sg/sf or PF to start along with the 3 of them. Look to move KEmba in offseason.

Kemba can just be old kemba, number 1 option off the bench and can just go mad with it,

Smart
Brown
Barnes?
Tatum
Theis

Kemba
Nesmith
Romeo Langford
Thompson
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#74 » by dans1230 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:09 pm

NYG wrote:Eric Bledsoe, Lonzo Ball and J.J. Redick for Javonte Green, Semi Ojeleye and Kemba Walker?

Does Boston need to add a pick or upgrade the prospects attached?

I like the premise of this trade, and i think Kemba would be better with the Pels and Lonzo would be better with the Celtics. If you could switch out Hart with either Bledsoe or Reddick i think Ainge would listen. Obviously tweaking would have to be done, and picks inserted here and there but i think the premise works.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#75 » by Scoot McGroot » Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:12 pm

Fencer reregistered wrote:
Godaddycurse wrote:
guille_4 wrote:I'd take a gamble with Westbrook.

Trade Kemba for Westbrook. Bigger contract but IMO higher potential. It's risky but with Kyrie, Harden and KD there's no point on playing it safe, you're not getting out of the Eastern Conference with them and Philly.

They both have this season and next guaranteed, and a player option in 2022-2023. Westbrook's contract is around $43M and Kemba's around $35M per season.

Or what about John Wall for Kemba?


i'd take a gamble on wall before westbrook


Wall started being my thought for the evening a few minutes ago, when I saw an article that made me think the Celtics had perhaps tried to trade Kemba for him.

Anyhow, besides the obvious Tatum/Brown/Smart, Theis is still developing (on offense -- he's a pretty finished product on D), and the list of good-looking but still unproven young players currently stands at 4, namely Robert Williams (outstanding player on a minutes restriction), Nesmith, Langford (when back from injury) and Pritchard.

(Note that few rookies in the NBA have produced as much as Nesmith or especially Pritchard this soon after they were drafted, on the technicality that most seasons games didn't even start this soon after the draft.)



Pritchard, sure. But Nesmith hasn’t produced positive yet. Just speaking as an Indy fan, I think we could have about the same production/impact thus far out of Cassius Stanley if we just force fed him the minutes Nesmith has had. Out of his rookie class, Nesmith is 31st in WS/48, 38th in BPM, and 41st in VORP. I firmly believe that Nesmith will be a player worth having down the road, but he has been firmly outproduced by the majority of rookies in his own draft class.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#76 » by queridiculo » Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:36 pm

Prokorov wrote:
Xman wrote:Either go big or blow it up. I think a go big move would be sending a couple of picks for Collins.
Collins for Nesmith, (maybe also Pritchard), BOS 2021 #1 with top 5 protection, becomes two seconds, and 2023 BOS #1 with top 6 protection, also turns into two seconds.

The picks are not great but Nesmith is salary controlled and even low or mid number ones have value.

If they decided to rebuild: JBrown to NO for a ton of picks, Tatum/Kemba to OKC for a ton of picks.


Blowing it up doesn't make any sense. Especially for a high volume of picks, given how Ainge has used those the last few years.

Tatum is 22
Brown is 24


This is the sort of sentiment that will have the Celtics treadmill right through Brown's and Tatum's prime.

Kemba doesn't fit the Celtics timeline, yet takes up an inordinate amount of salary cap space.

Not moving him will cost them Smart, who's invariably going to go to the highest bidder following his team friendly contract.

Smart is the heart and soul of that team if you ask me, and the Celtics would be well served if they just cut their losses for the next season or two to rebuild organically for as long as they have Tatum and Brown on their relatively friendly contracts.

A rebuild on the fly might be something worth considering.

Could the Pelicans be talked into moving Adams and Bledsoe for Walker with some assets attached?

Adams is a dinosaur, but his DNA would fit with the Celtics rough and tumble approach and they'd have a changeup guy in Bledsoe whose only partially guaranteed after the 2021/22 season.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#77 » by dans1230 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:45 pm

queridiculo wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
Xman wrote:Either go big or blow it up. I think a go big move would be sending a couple of picks for Collins.
Collins for Nesmith, (maybe also Pritchard), BOS 2021 #1 with top 5 protection, becomes two seconds, and 2023 BOS #1 with top 6 protection, also turns into two seconds.

The picks are not great but Nesmith is salary controlled and even low or mid number ones have value.

If they decided to rebuild: JBrown to NO for a ton of picks, Tatum/Kemba to OKC for a ton of picks.


Blowing it up doesn't make any sense. Especially for a high volume of picks, given how Ainge has used those the last few years.

Tatum is 22
Brown is 24


This is the sort of sentiment that will have the Celtics treadmill right through Brown's and Tatum's prime.

Kemba doesn't fit the Celtics timeline, yet takes up an inordinate amount of salary cap space.

Not moving him will cost them Smart, who's invariably going to go to the highest bidder following his team friendly contract.

Smart is the heart and soul of that team if you ask me, and the Celtics would be well served if they just cut their losses for the next season or two to rebuild organically for as long as they have Tatum and Brown on their relatively friendly contracts.

A rebuild on the fly might be something worth considering.

Could the Pelicans be talked into moving Adams and Bledsoe for Walker with some assets attached?

Adams is a dinosaur, but his DNA would fit with the Celtics rough and tumble approach and they'd have a changeup guy in Bledsoe whose only partially guaranteed after the 2021/22 season.

I agree that Adams would fit well in Boston, would a Walker/Thompson for Adams/Bledsoe swap work for both teams. Contractually the money is pretty even for both teams throughout.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#78 » by queridiculo » Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:53 pm

dans1230 wrote:
queridiculo wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
Blowing it up doesn't make any sense. Especially for a high volume of picks, given how Ainge has used those the last few years.

Tatum is 22
Brown is 24


This is the sort of sentiment that will have the Celtics treadmill right through Brown's and Tatum's prime.

Kemba doesn't fit the Celtics timeline, yet takes up an inordinate amount of salary cap space.

Not moving him will cost them Smart, who's invariably going to go to the highest bidder following his team friendly contract.

Smart is the heart and soul of that team if you ask me, and the Celtics would be well served if they just cut their losses for the next season or two to rebuild organically for as long as they have Tatum and Brown on their relatively friendly contracts.

A rebuild on the fly might be something worth considering.

Could the Pelicans be talked into moving Adams and Bledsoe for Walker with some assets attached?

Adams is a dinosaur, but his DNA would fit with the Celtics rough and tumble approach and they'd have a changeup guy in Bledsoe whose only partially guaranteed after the 2021/22 season.

I agree that Adams would fit well in Boston, would a Walker/Thompson for Adams/Bledsoe swap work for both teams. Contractually the money is pretty even for both teams throughout.


That extra year on Thompson's deal probably makes this a no go for the Pelicans unless Boston attaches more assets.

Adams contract fits into the Celtics trade exception.

Is there anything in the CBA that would prevent the Celtics from executing a Adams/Bledsoe/Reddick trade for Walker in separate transactions?

Trade 1: Adams for future considerations and trade exception
Trade 2: Bledsoe/Reddick for Walker
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#79 » by drosestruts » Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:45 pm

I think Boston's biggest issue has been Walkers injury affecting his playing, Smarts injury affecting his availability, and lack of a big big in their rotation.

I'm sure Boston fans have much higher hopes for their trade exception but what if they used it for someone like Ricky Rubio? He'd bring playmaking and defense to the point guard spot, Kemba could be a bench scorer easing the burden in him night-to-night. Once Smart is healthy, he and Rubio make for quite the defensive duo - while also easing the burden on Tatum and Brown on the defensive end.

For the big man issue - I think Boston will be able to find someone on the buyout market. Not sure there's a trade that makes sense for them here.
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Re: Boston ain't right -- How to fix? 

Post#80 » by gswhoops » Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:02 pm

With the news that Dallas might be shopping KP...I think he could be a good buy-low gamble for the C's.

Too bad his contract is just slightly too big to fit in the TPE.

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