Best offer for Collin Sexton or Darius Garland

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Re: Best offer for Collin Sexton or Darius Garland 

Post#41 » by Chris Porter's Hair » Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:30 am

DowJones wrote:
Chris Porter's Hair wrote:I was looking the other day at something like Garland and Javale for Oubre. But I know opinions on Oubre vary wildly, and I genuinely had no idea how much value to associate with Garland. I was pretty sure Sexton was worth more.

Personally, I'm pretty pleased with how Oubre is settling out. But I think the reality is that the way he's playing he may well price himself out of practicality for our team, and I'd rather get some pieces we could use than let him walk for nothing.


Oubre will be a free agent so the Cavs wouldn’t target him. If GS ends up with the 6th or 7th pick from Minnesota then how about Sexton for the pick?

I'm so used to being buried under the cap I didn't think about the fact that Cleveland could likely just try to sign Oubre if they wanted him heh... Very fair point.

I'm not the best one to comment on your other proposal. I really don't follow college at all, so have no idea what we'd really be looking at with a 6 or 7 pick. I also don't know Sexton as well as I could. On paper he looks like a guy that would fill some needs for us. How is his defense?
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Re: Best offer for Collin Sexton or Darius Garland 

Post#42 » by Monky15 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:45 am

Sexton would be great on any team with an elite point forward. Bucks, NOP, Philly, Mavs come to mind. Don't think the Bucks have the assets to get a deal done though.
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Re: Best offer for Collin Sexton or Darius Garland 

Post#43 » by cjmcallist » Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:47 pm

If Sexton is really available, OKC would throw some picks in for him.

We'd also be willing to take on some bad salary to grease the wheels. We can haggle over what years/how many.
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Re: Best offer for Collin Sexton or Darius Garland 

Post#44 » by DowJones » Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:49 pm

Monky15 wrote:Sexton would be great on any team with an elite point forward. Bucks, NOP, Philly, Mavs come to mind. Don't think the Bucks have the assets to get a deal done though.


I thought abut New Orleans, but as it stands they would have the 10th pick. That isn't going to be high enough to get Sexton. if they move into the top-4, they may be reluctant to trade for Sexton. New Orleans would probably need to get the 4th pick and then decide that Sexton is a better option than Kuminga for them.
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Re: Best offer for Collin Sexton or Darius Garland 

Post#45 » by Stillwater » Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:17 pm

There is next to no chance Cle is moving on from their best player at the deadline or even this off season for reasons assumed in this thread like because his younger teammates are not great fits
Or that he isnt currently utilizing the type of ball sharing skills you want out of a main ball handler because the org isnt confident their younger guard playing out of position has any chance to work.
Sexton is probably leaving in free agency if cle doesn't get dg out of his way.
But there has been so much steady improvement from Sexton playing out of position next to dg showing Sextons versatility is far more worth retaining and the hope is dg can improve enough going into next season that their rotation will be justified . I wouldn't trade either until this time next season if dg still the same or injured again id move him
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Re: Best offer for Collin Sexton or Darius Garland 

Post#46 » by nate33 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:34 pm

TGW wrote:I'd offer Rui Hachimura straight up no chaser (for Galand).

I wouldn't.
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Re: Best offer for Collin Sexton or Darius Garland 

Post#47 » by Scoot McGroot » Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:16 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Dadouv47 wrote:Agree that it's better for the Cavs to wait until draft night. My issue is that I think that Garland isn't valuable enough to move up into the draft to get Cade or Kuminga. If the Cavs gets a top 5-6 pick maybe they could trade Garland and a future 1st to get Kuminga.

Sexton/Allen/Kuminga looks pretty solid to me.
Besides Morant, show me another PG averaging 5.4 assists and 16 points per game half way through his second season in the NBA.

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Hyper specific, but Coby White is putting up 15.6 and 5.2, just from that same draft class. :dontknow:
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Re: Best offer for Collin Sexton or Darius Garland 

Post#48 » by ChettheJet » Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:41 pm

Much depends on what exactly the CLE plan is. For the Bulls I'd expand it to

Love and Garland
for
Porter, Markkanen and Satoransky

CLE gets out from under a lot of money, maybe they keep Markkanen, maybe Satoransky next to Sexton plays the bigger guard on defense, handles the ball at times, so Sexton is the SG.

The Bulls take on Love starting at the 4 and backup 5, they can either trade Young who is really having a great time as the backup 4-5 or they keep the two veterans up front. Williams stays at the SF with Valentine behind him. Garland joins Lavine and White for a three headed monster at guard with Temple coming in with any of the three.
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Re: Best offer for Collin Sexton or Darius Garland 

Post#49 » by jbk1234 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:52 pm

Stillwater wrote:There is next to no chance Cle is moving on from their best player at the deadline or even this off season for reasons assumed in this thread like because his younger teammates are not great fits
Or that he isnt currently utilizing the type of ball sharing skills you want out of a main ball handler because the org isnt confident their younger guard playing out of position has any chance to work.
Sexton is probably leaving in free agency if cle doesn't get dg out of his way.
But there has been so much steady improvement from Sexton playing out of position next to dg showing Sextons versatility is far more worth retaining and the hope is dg can improve enough going into next season that their rotation will be justified . I wouldn't trade either until this time next season if dg still the same or injured again id move him


1) If the Cavs can add him to their pick and move up to select someone they deem to be a true franchise cornerstone, then there's a chance.
2) This is word salad and means nothing. Sexton is a 2 who's best suited next to a guy like Simmons, Ball, Giannis, etc. Playing semantic games and calling Sexton a *lead guard* doesn't change the fact that you still need someone else to run an offense.
3) Sexton and Garland are a bad pairing for a host of reasons but I'd argue that impacts them both. No prospect is playing on the Q.O. after Noel. The risks are too high.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Best offer for Collin Sexton or Darius Garland 

Post#50 » by letsgobulls23 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:08 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
jordanwilliams6 wrote:I would offer Coby White for Garland. Coby will be a very good NBA player but the Bulls need more of a pure PG to play with LaVine.

Do Cavs fans prefer Sexton to be with the ball mostly? White has shown elite potential as a catch and shoot option & scorer, but he's not great running an offense and setting others up.
I don't see either of them getting moved before the draft precisely because Sexton is more of a 2 who needs someone else to run the offense.

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Which is exactly what Coby White is, Coby and Sexton would not work at all.
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Re: Best offer for Collin Sexton or Darius Garland 

Post#51 » by cgf » Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:20 pm

I would love Garland in New York but dunno what we have that would be enticing to the Cavs & make sense to give up for us. We could offer both mavs picks & Knox/Ntilikina, but I suspect that that would get bested by other teams after the progress DG has shown this season. While adding Barrett, Robinson or Quickley to those picks would make it too rich for us; as they are the core that we would want him to join...and I know Cavs fans have previously expressed that a 4 isn't interesting them; which takes Toppin & Randle off the table as well.

Sexton could be interesting as the Murray to Julius' Jokic, too...especially if RJ's playmaking becomes a bigger part of the offense moving forward...but we run into that same problem of finding a price that makes sense for both sides.
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Re: Best offer for Collin Sexton or Darius Garland 

Post#52 » by mg » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:01 pm

I believe *if* Garland gets traded it will be closer to the draft. If they end up with a bigger PG like Cade then obviously they could deal dg for a wing. If they draft a SF then maybe he gets traded for a bigger guard. It just doesn't make sense to trade him now considering all the uncertainty. The fact the Cavs are the worse 3 pt shooting team in the league and their supposed 'stars' Love and Drummond are sitting it's commendable the kid is still creating and racking up some assists. It will be tough for Altman to trade one of his draftees but this smells a bit like the Price/KJ conundrum back in the day where one of them needed to be traded to reach their potential. KJ ended up being traded to Phoenix for Larry Nance Sr.
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Re: Best offer for Collin Sexton or Darius Garland 

Post#53 » by Revenged25 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:10 pm

ChettheJet wrote:Much depends on what exactly the CLE plan is. For the Bulls I'd expand it to

Love and Garland
for
Porter, Markkanen and Satoransky

CLE gets out from under a lot of money, maybe they keep Markkanen, maybe Satoransky next to Sexton plays the bigger guard on defense, handles the ball at times, so Sexton is the SG.

The Bulls take on Love starting at the 4 and backup 5, they can either trade Young who is really having a great time as the backup 4-5 or they keep the two veterans up front. Williams stays at the SF with Valentine behind him. Garland joins Lavine and White for a three headed monster at guard with Temple coming in with any of the three.


If I was the Cavs FO and this offered was available I would have the papers submitted to the NBA before the phone call even ended. Even though Lauri needs to get paid in the off-season, he's probably looking at a contract similar to Bertans in the 5/80 range which is still a good deal for what he provides as long as he plays at the level he has for the most of his career. Sato would likely become the 3rd guard for whoever the Cavs look to make a move for/draft and could play the role that Dante Exum played prior to injury and then traded.

Though they'd need to find a way to shave about 7.3 mil in cap after the trade as it would put them over the luxury this year, but next year with OPJ and Drummond going off the books, or whoever else they get to clear cap space, then they could easily afford to pay Lauri 5/80 and Allen 5/90 without breaking a sweat being just barely over the cap.
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Re: Best offer for Collin Sexton or Darius Garland 

Post#54 » by Wolveswin » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:19 pm

Mavs:
Porzingis + Brunson (or Green or ?) + Iwundu
FOR
Garland + Allen + Oubre

Warriors:
Wiseman + Oubre + Filler (Wanamaker?) + 2021 Wolves 1st
FOR
Porzingis + Brunson + Iwundu

Cavs:
Allen + Garland (or Sexton)
FOR
Wiseman + GSW Filler + 2021 Wolves 1st

Mavs trade Porzingis but get 2 players more developed into their NBA journey for Doncic to develop with (vs. rookie and draft pick).

Warriors upgrade to Porzingis and complete a win now title run.

Cavs balance their youth roster. Try and get value for Drummond, then tank 2021. Wiseman, Sexton, Okoro, Cunningham or Suggs, 2021 Wolves 1st is a very exciting young core.
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Re: Best offer for Collin Sexton or Darius Garland 

Post#55 » by jbk1234 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:31 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
ChettheJet wrote:Much depends on what exactly the CLE plan is. For the Bulls I'd expand it to

Love and Garland
for
Porter, Markkanen and Satoransky

CLE gets out from under a lot of money, maybe they keep Markkanen, maybe Satoransky next to Sexton plays the bigger guard on defense, handles the ball at times, so Sexton is the SG.

The Bulls take on Love starting at the 4 and backup 5, they can either trade Young who is really having a great time as the backup 4-5 or they keep the two veterans up front. Williams stays at the SF with Valentine behind him. Garland joins Lavine and White for a three headed monster at guard with Temple coming in with any of the three.


If I was the Cavs FO and this offered was available I would have the papers submitted to the NBA before the phone call even ended. Even though Lauri needs to get paid in the off-season, he's probably looking at a contract similar to Bertans in the 5/80 range which is still a good deal for what he provides as long as he plays at the level he has for the most of his career. Sato would likely become the 3rd guard for whoever the Cavs look to make a move for/draft and could play the role that Dante Exum played prior to injury and then traded.

Though they'd need to find a way to shave about 7.3 mil in cap after the trade as it would put them over the luxury this year, but next year with OPJ and Drummond going off the books, or whoever else they get to clear cap space, then they could easily afford to pay Lauri 5/80 and Allen 5/90 without breaking a sweat being just barely over the cap.


I really don't get why people want to pay to get out of K. Love's contract only to sign a worse version of K. Love to another negative value contract, only one that will be three years longer than Love's deal. Lauri has missed a ton of games over 4 years due to injury. His career DPM is -1.2 (-1.4 this year). He's very meh rebounder. His career 3p% is .360 and that's being propped up some by his shooting over the 14 games he's actually managed to play in this year. That puts him behind Love, Prince, Garland, and Sexton. Moreover, it puts him within .02 of Cedi's career average from 3. That's what you'd be paying $80M for.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Best offer for Collin Sexton or Darius Garland 

Post#56 » by jbk1234 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:39 pm

Wolveswin wrote:Mavs:
Porzingis + Brunson (or Green or ?) + Iwundu
FOR
Garland + Allen + Oubre

Warriors:
Wiseman + Oubre + Filler (Wanamaker?) + 2021 Wolves 1st
FOR
Porzingis + Brunson + Iwundu

Cavs:
Allen + Garland (or Sexton)
FOR
Wiseman + GSW Filler + 2021 Wolves 1st

Mavs trade Porzingis but get 2 players more developed into their NBA journey for Doncic to develop with (vs. rookie and draft pick).

Warriors upgrade to Porzingis and complete a win now title run.

Cavs balance their youth roster. Try and get value for Drummond, then tank 2021. Wiseman, Sexton, Okoro, Cunningham or Suggs, 2021 Wolves 1st is a very exciting young core.


That Wolves pick being top 3 protected really makes trading for it before the lottery problematic. There's a greater than 40% chance you'd be trading for a 2022 pick. Edwards will have an entire rookie season under his belt, KAT is unlikely to miss as many games next year, and they could be adding a really good player from this draft to the roster. If they attach a future first to DLo and manage to get back even a replacement level PF, they could have a considerably better record next season.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Best offer for Collin Sexton or Darius Garland 

Post#57 » by Stillwater » Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:12 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:There is next to no chance Cle is moving on from their best player at the deadline or even this off season for reasons assumed in this thread like because his younger teammates are not great fits
Or that he isnt currently utilizing the type of ball sharing skills you want out of a main ball handler because the org isnt confident their younger guard playing out of position has any chance to work.
Sexton is probably leaving in free agency if cle doesn't get dg out of his way.
But there has been so much steady improvement from Sexton playing out of position next to dg showing Sextons versatility is far more worth retaining and the hope is dg can improve enough going into next season that their rotation will be justified . I wouldn't trade either until this time next season if dg still the same or injured again id move him


1) If the Cavs can add him to their pick and move up to select someone they deem to be a true franchise cornerstone, then there's a chance.
2) This is word salad and means nothing. Sexton is a 2 who's best suited next to a guy like Simmons, Ball, Giannis, etc. Playing semantic games and calling Sexton a *lead guard* doesn't change the fact that you still need someone else to run an offense.
3) Sexton and Garland are a bad pairing for a host of reasons but I'd argue that impacts them both. No prospect is playing on the Q.O. after Noel. The risks are too high.

Yep Sexton is the combo guard not a 2 guard but he definitely is playing mostly with the ball in his hands even when DG is out there trying to play basketball at a pro level. Its obvious DG is a high iq kid but he is farther away from putting it together than people think. I mean even if DG isnt throwing bail out lobs to JFro he is just dribbling around in circles or jacking open 3s when they take the floater away usually.
Sexton is also not a true pg in any sense in his current use but he could easily become that guy if they DG the f out of his way and put some real off ball shooters next to him. Sexton with his attacking the paint and ability to score in many ways matched a Klay type guard would be ideal. Once Os shot starts falling thats the starting back court if things work out
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Re: Best offer for Collin Sexton or Darius Garland 

Post#58 » by jbk1234 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:16 pm

Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:There is next to no chance Cle is moving on from their best player at the deadline or even this off season for reasons assumed in this thread like because his younger teammates are not great fits
Or that he isnt currently utilizing the type of ball sharing skills you want out of a main ball handler because the org isnt confident their younger guard playing out of position has any chance to work.
Sexton is probably leaving in free agency if cle doesn't get dg out of his way.
But there has been so much steady improvement from Sexton playing out of position next to dg showing Sextons versatility is far more worth retaining and the hope is dg can improve enough going into next season that their rotation will be justified . I wouldn't trade either until this time next season if dg still the same or injured again id move him


1) If the Cavs can add him to their pick and move up to select someone they deem to be a true franchise cornerstone, then there's a chance.
2) This is word salad and means nothing. Sexton is a 2 who's best suited next to a guy like Simmons, Ball, Giannis, etc. Playing semantic games and calling Sexton a *lead guard* doesn't change the fact that you still need someone else to run an offense.
3) Sexton and Garland are a bad pairing for a host of reasons but I'd argue that impacts them both. No prospect is playing on the Q.O. after Noel. The risks are too high.

Yep Sexton is the combo guard not a 2 guard but he definitely is playing mostly with the ball in his hands even when DG is out there trying to play basketball at a pro level. Its obvious DG is a high iq kid but he is farther away from putting it together than people think. I mean even if DG isnt throwing bail out lobs to JFro he is just dribbling around in circles or jacking open 3s when they take the floater away usually.
Sexton is also not a true pg in any sense since but he could easily become that guy if they DG the f out of his way and put some real off ball shooters next to him. Sexton with his attacking the paint and ability to score in many ways matched a Klay type guard would be ideal.


That might be ideal for Sexton but it would not be ideal for the team he's playing on. The smartest thing the Nets did after the Harden trade was make him the PG.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Best offer for Collin Sexton or Darius Garland 

Post#59 » by Revenged25 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:47 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
ChettheJet wrote:Much depends on what exactly the CLE plan is. For the Bulls I'd expand it to

Love and Garland
for
Porter, Markkanen and Satoransky

CLE gets out from under a lot of money, maybe they keep Markkanen, maybe Satoransky next to Sexton plays the bigger guard on defense, handles the ball at times, so Sexton is the SG.

The Bulls take on Love starting at the 4 and backup 5, they can either trade Young who is really having a great time as the backup 4-5 or they keep the two veterans up front. Williams stays at the SF with Valentine behind him. Garland joins Lavine and White for a three headed monster at guard with Temple coming in with any of the three.


If I was the Cavs FO and this offered was available I would have the papers submitted to the NBA before the phone call even ended. Even though Lauri needs to get paid in the off-season, he's probably looking at a contract similar to Bertans in the 5/80 range which is still a good deal for what he provides as long as he plays at the level he has for the most of his career. Sato would likely become the 3rd guard for whoever the Cavs look to make a move for/draft and could play the role that Dante Exum played prior to injury and then traded.

Though they'd need to find a way to shave about 7.3 mil in cap after the trade as it would put them over the luxury this year, but next year with OPJ and Drummond going off the books, or whoever else they get to clear cap space, then they could easily afford to pay Lauri 5/80 and Allen 5/90 without breaking a sweat being just barely over the cap.


I really don't get why people want to pay to get out of K. Love's contract only to sign a worse version of K. Love to another negative value contract, only one that will be three years longer than Love's deal. Lauri has missed a ton of games over 4 years due to injury. His career DPM is -1.2 (-1.4 this year). He's very meh rebounder. His career 3p% is .360 and that's being propped up some by his shooting over the 14 games he's actually managed to play in this year. That puts him behind Love, Prince, Garland, and Sexton. Moreover, it puts him within .02 of Cedi's career average from 3. That's what you'd be paying $80M for.


A) Kevin Love has played 139 games over the last 4 years and Lauri has played 184 games. Neither are in the running for Iron Man but let's not get it twisted about his availability compared to Love.

B) Lauri on 5/80 is a lot less negative than Love on 3/90 or 2/60. Not to mention Lauri has room for improvement still as he's only going to be 24 this year.

C) Love's first 4 years his DPM was -1.6, -1.2, -1.3, -.9, not exactly the picture of defense either granted Love was/is a better rebounder scorer, but Love at this point isn't better than Lauri defensively and Lauri still has room to improve offensively.

D) How is his 40 3PM on 101 3PA "propping up" his career 3% when there were 1050 3PA coming into this year. He had a 35.6 3p% coming into this year so the shooting his did this year has only improved his percentage by .3% so not really propping anything up.

E) He's actually still within the timeline to grow and improve with Sexton, Okoro, and Allen.

Also please tell me how many starting PFs shoot over 35% from 3 while shooting as many as they do? I mean Kevin Love career average is only 1% better than Lauri's.

Seriously tell me what stretch PF isn't overpaid to a certain extent due to the lack of players that can do so? I'm not talking about players that didn't show they could do it before they signed the contract or ones that are at the end of their career and provide nothing else but coming off the bench and jacking some 3's like Channing Frye could at the end for 10 minutes a game.
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Re: Best offer for Collin Sexton or Darius Garland 

Post#60 » by jbk1234 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:10 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
If I was the Cavs FO and this offered was available I would have the papers submitted to the NBA before the phone call even ended. Even though Lauri needs to get paid in the off-season, he's probably looking at a contract similar to Bertans in the 5/80 range which is still a good deal for what he provides as long as he plays at the level he has for the most of his career. Sato would likely become the 3rd guard for whoever the Cavs look to make a move for/draft and could play the role that Dante Exum played prior to injury and then traded.

Though they'd need to find a way to shave about 7.3 mil in cap after the trade as it would put them over the luxury this year, but next year with OPJ and Drummond going off the books, or whoever else they get to clear cap space, then they could easily afford to pay Lauri 5/80 and Allen 5/90 without breaking a sweat being just barely over the cap.


I really don't get why people want to pay to get out of K. Love's contract only to sign a worse version of K. Love to another negative value contract, only one that will be three years longer than Love's deal. Lauri has missed a ton of games over 4 years due to injury. His career DPM is -1.2 (-1.4 this year). He's very meh rebounder. His career 3p% is .360 and that's being propped up some by his shooting over the 14 games he's actually managed to play in this year. That puts him behind Love, Prince, Garland, and Sexton. Moreover, it puts him within .02 of Cedi's career average from 3. That's what you'd be paying $80M for.


A) Kevin Love has played 139 games over the last 4 years and Lauri has played 184 games. Neither are in the running for Iron Man but let's not get it twisted about his availability compared to Love.

B) Lauri on 5/80 is a lot less negative than Love on 3/90 or 2/60. Not to mention Lauri has room for improvement still as he's only going to be 24 this year.

C) Love's first 4 years his DPM was -1.6, -1.2, -1.3, -.9, not exactly the picture of defense either granted Love was/is a better rebounder scorer, but Love at this point isn't better than Lauri defensively and Lauri still has room to improve offensively.

D) How is his 40 3PM on 101 3PA "propping up" his career 3% when there were 1050 3PA coming into this year. He had a 35.6 3p% coming into this year so the shooting his did this year has only improved his percentage by .3% so not really propping anything up.

E) He's actually still within the timeline to grow and improve with Sexton, Okoro, and Allen.

Also please tell me how many starting PFs shoot over 35% from 3 while shooting as many as they do? I mean Kevin Love career average is only 1% better than Lauri's.

Seriously tell me what stretch PF isn't overpaid to a certain extent due to the lack of players that can do so? I'm not talking about players that didn't show they could do it before they signed the contract or ones that are at the end of their career and provide nothing else but coming off the bench and jacking some 3's like Channing Frye could at the end for 10 minutes a game.


If Lauri had a trendline where he was improving every year in the areas of concern, I'd feel differently about handing him a contract based on projected improvement. But he hasn't, so I don't. I think you will find that five-year bad deal is worse than a two-year bad deal in terms of trying to move it. Especially if you experience buyers remorse half way through next season, when Love would have a year and half left on his deal (assuming we haven't arrived at a medical retirement by then), and Lauri would have 4 and 1/2 years left. Absent a gigantic leap from Okoro, that's still a lottery team.

LaVine is basically a better version of Sexton this season. He plays alongside Lauri (when Lauri plays). The Bulls are tied for the 8th seed at 14-16 and giving way more minutes to Thad Young this season. The Cavs have the better center. The Bulls have the (far) better bench. Assuming that you could start Nance ahead of Lauri without the defense collapsing, that's what you're looking at and I think it's a mistake to make big money commitments to a team with a ceiling that low.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.

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