Who Says No? Sabonis for Rui, Bertans and 6th Overall

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Who Says No?

Pacers
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49%
Wizards
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36%
Neither
9
15%
 
Total votes: 61

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Re: Who Says No? Sabonis for Rui, Bertans and 6th Overall 

Post#61 » by NYG » Thu Apr 8, 2021 2:58 am

Wizop wrote:
NYG wrote:The fact the poll is so evenly split kind of makes me feel like it's fair.
I want a trade to make my team better. A trade can be fair in terms of "value" and still not be a good move.

Sent from my phone.


Better is relative. Are you a team with a long window looking to maximize their ceiling long-term or are you all in on right now? Some teams want to get better right now, some teams are okay waiting. That's the basis of most significant trades.

It would be Rui (who could be solid in his own right), Bertans (overpaid, but also spreads the floor) and Scottie Barnes is going 6th Overall by most rankings.

https://www.espn.com/nba/draft/bestavailable

Scottie Barnes
6'9"
227 lbs
Florida State

Spoiler:
Pre-Draft Analysis
Strengths
- Excellent size and length for a modern forward at 6-8 with a 7-2 wingspan and a strong frame. Has the tools to slide up and play some small-ball center in a pinch.
- High motor defender who can defend 1 through 5 at the collegiate level. Regularly picks up point guards in the back court. Good technique on the ball. Crowds opposing guards and takes them out of their offense. Can switch every screen onto bigs. Active off-ball defender.
- Mismatch facilitator with a great feel for the game. Plays point guard for FSU. Unselfish moving the ball ahead in transition. Comfortable ball handler. Fills in the gaps on offense. Keeps plays alive on the offensive glass.

Improvement areas
- Unnatural shooting stroke with unproven results. Lack of floor spacing makes him a tough fit on the offensive end of the floor. Needs shooters around him at all times to make him most effective.
- Limited all-around scorer in the half court. Doesn't have great touch or much to go to in his scoring arsenal.
- Mobile for his size but lacking a degree of quickness and burst off the dribble. Plays below the rim in the half court. Not much of a leaper. Elite collegiate defender, but will he have the foot speed to lock up elite NBA wings?

Projected role: Two-way point forward


That seems like a great fit in Indy plus Rui.
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Re: Who Says No? Sabonis for Rui, Bertans and 6th Overall 

Post#62 » by Scoot McGroot » Thu Apr 8, 2021 3:15 am

NYG wrote:
Wizop wrote:
NYG wrote:The fact the poll is so evenly split kind of makes me feel like it's fair.
I want a trade to make my team better. A trade can be fair in terms of "value" and still not be a good move.

Sent from my phone.


Better is relative. Are you a team with a long window looking to maximize their ceiling long-term or are you all in on right now? Some teams want to get better right now, some teams are okay waiting. That's the basis of most significant trades.

It would be Rui (who could be solid in his own right), Bertans (overpaid, but also spreads the floor) and Scottie Barnes is going 6th Overall by most rankings.

https://www.espn.com/nba/draft/bestavailable

Scottie Barnes
6'9"
227 lbs
Florida State

Spoiler:
Pre-Draft Analysis
Strengths
- Excellent size and length for a modern forward at 6-8 with a 7-2 wingspan and a strong frame. Has the tools to slide up and play some small-ball center in a pinch.
- High motor defender who can defend 1 through 5 at the collegiate level. Regularly picks up point guards in the back court. Good technique on the ball. Crowds opposing guards and takes them out of their offense. Can switch every screen onto bigs. Active off-ball defender.
- Mismatch facilitator with a great feel for the game. Plays point guard for FSU. Unselfish moving the ball ahead in transition. Comfortable ball handler. Fills in the gaps on offense. Keeps plays alive on the offensive glass.

Improvement areas
- Unnatural shooting stroke with unproven results. Lack of floor spacing makes him a tough fit on the offensive end of the floor. Needs shooters around him at all times to make him most effective.
- Limited all-around scorer in the half court. Doesn't have great touch or much to go to in his scoring arsenal.
- Mobile for his size but lacking a degree of quickness and burst off the dribble. Plays below the rim in the half court. Not much of a leaper. Elite collegiate defender, but will he have the foot speed to lock up elite NBA wings?

Projected role: Two-way point forward


That seems like a great fit in Indy plus Rui.


And other teams are ok with hedging their bets a bit in between there. Like Indiana.

Otherwise, you're looking at 3 guys, and what they can produce, but combining them into "one body" to replace Sabonis, and unfortunately, we just can't Mecha-Zord these guys on each others shoulders and make one guy. Especially as all 3 would really project to play primarily the 4. I'm not saying it's not fair value, but it's tough to make a move like this knowing that all 3 guys will have to cannibalize each others production in order to prove their worth.
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Re: Who Says No? Sabonis for Rui, Bertans and 6th Overall 

Post#63 » by Shoe » Thu Apr 8, 2021 12:09 pm

pacers33granger wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
HotelVitale wrote: Thanks, just looked up the asterisk on the final year and you're right: if he plays 75% of games the year before he gets that next year.

I can agree with that valuation, but folks on this thread seem to be insinuating that he's a massive albatross or something. His contract was regular market value last year and he's in his prime, don't think it's that bad a deal for a team that needs someone like him. Just could be a bad deal for the type of teams who are decent or good and need to be very careful about flexibility and all of their next moves.



Yeah. I think the gut reaction to a long term deal on a role player is it’s either a good deal, or it’s a TERRIBLE deal, when most of the deals are in between. I think the length is worrisome, and that every year it will fluctuate from good to bad based on how well Bertans is shooting. I love long range shooting, so I’m apt to give him a little leeway, but others will see him as one dimensional, which is true, too.


The issue I have is that the current version of Bertans may very well be the real player and not the version Washington had last year. His SA career had him at about 6 ppg on 40% from three with 3.5 attempts per game. Then in Washington he shot up to 15 ppg on 42% from three with nearly 9 attempts a game. He shot that well his last year in SA, but on half the attempts.

I see almost no way he justifies that contract as, even at his best, he's severely limited at everything outside of shooting. A fine player for sure, but woefully overpaid in both years and dollars.


Bertans past three games back from injury he's 14/27 from 3. Now shooting .395 on 7.4 attempts this season. Only 24 mpg which is the fewest among league leaders in 3PA.
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Re: Who Says No? Sabonis for Rui, Bertans and 6th Overall 

Post#64 » by penbeast0 » Thu Apr 8, 2021 12:41 pm

If you look at Bertrans per 100 possessions numbers, you will see a small but steady increase in value over the 4 years with no big jump in Washington. He's only been in the league 4 years, there's no reason to expect a dropoff in production over the course of this contract assuming health. The only real difference was that he played more minutes per game (and less games) in Washington than he did on the stronger, deeper, San Antonio teams.
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Re: Who Says No? Sabonis for Rui, Bertans and 6th Overall 

Post#65 » by Wizop » Thu Apr 8, 2021 1:47 pm

NYG wrote:Better is relative. Are you a team with a long window looking to maximize their ceiling long-term or are you all in on right now? Some teams want to get better right now, some teams are okay waiting. That's the basis of most significant trades.

It would be Rui (who could be solid in his own right), Bertans (overpaid, but also spreads the floor) and Scottie Barnes is going 6th Overall by most rankings.

https://www.espn.com/nba/draft/bestavailable

Scottie Barnes
6'9"
227 lbs
Florida State


I do like Barnes in the draft. Also Wagner if he declares. If the draft gives us a 4, I'm happy bringing the gang back. Basically, I see two ways to go into next year.

1) start Brogdon, LeVert, Warren, Turner, and Sabonis
with bench contributors being, McConnell, the two Holidays, Sumner, McDermott, Lamb, Goga, and a new backup 4. that's probably too many wings so a small trade would be likely and if the draft doesn't give us a 4 that trade could be for one. theoretically McConnell or McDermott could be allowed to sign elsewhere but I don't see that.

2) see what the market offers for Sabonis (or if that fails, Turner). we looking for an top quality young power forward ready to start. we do not want to move one of our centers for another center. that would create a starting lineup of Brogdon, LeVert, Warren, Turner, and NewGuy. ideally the new 4 would be on a rookie contract or one no higher than 20mm. if more, we'd probably want to include Lamb or Warren in the deal.
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Re: Who Says No? Sabonis for Rui, Bertans and 6th Overall 

Post#66 » by nate33 » Thu Apr 8, 2021 2:15 pm

Topofthekey wrote:
penbeast0 wrote:(a) Sabonis is a poor fit in Washington, a team with no serious defense that doesn't need scoring nearly as badly. Turner would be more valuable to the Wiz, especially since he can play next to Bryant or next to a PF.
(b) If Washington is looking to win now, why are they trading Bertrans who is definitely a win now piece whose value is currently low (same goes for trading Bryant).
(c) If Washington is building for the long term, they don't trade the pick.

It just doesn't make any sense for the Wiz. Something around Hachimura for Turner (Washington will throw in the expiring contracts of R. Lopez and Ish Smith) makes more sense if you like Hachimura that much -- he made great strides defensively this year but he's not the rim protector you want next to Bryant or Bertans. You save money and get a long term solution at the 4; Washington gets a short term defensive upgrade at the cost of 2 years of rookie salary for a starter.

I don't do it if I'm Indiana because I like Turner next to Sabonis but I'm a dinosaur, I like the two big man style.

I think the idea here is to pair Sabonis with Beal on offense

So either Sabonis goes to Washington, or Beal goes to Indiana

That's the idea, but it's a bad one, particularly with Westbrook in the fold.

As penbeast0 and Dat2U have already suggested, the guy that would fit well in Washington is Turner. He addresses their need for a rim protector while also keeping the paint unclogged for Westbrook and Beal to drive.
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Re: Who Says No? Sabonis for Rui, Bertans and 6th Overall 

Post#67 » by Scoot McGroot » Thu Apr 8, 2021 3:12 pm

nate33 wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:
penbeast0 wrote:(a) Sabonis is a poor fit in Washington, a team with no serious defense that doesn't need scoring nearly as badly. Turner would be more valuable to the Wiz, especially since he can play next to Bryant or next to a PF.
(b) If Washington is looking to win now, why are they trading Bertrans who is definitely a win now piece whose value is currently low (same goes for trading Bryant).
(c) If Washington is building for the long term, they don't trade the pick.

It just doesn't make any sense for the Wiz. Something around Hachimura for Turner (Washington will throw in the expiring contracts of R. Lopez and Ish Smith) makes more sense if you like Hachimura that much -- he made great strides defensively this year but he's not the rim protector you want next to Bryant or Bertans. You save money and get a long term solution at the 4; Washington gets a short term defensive upgrade at the cost of 2 years of rookie salary for a starter.

I don't do it if I'm Indiana because I like Turner next to Sabonis but I'm a dinosaur, I like the two big man style.

I think the idea here is to pair Sabonis with Beal on offense

So either Sabonis goes to Washington, or Beal goes to Indiana

That's the idea, but it's a bad one, particularly with Westbrook in the fold.

As penbeast0 and Dat2U have already suggested, the guy that would fit well in Washington is Turner. He addresses their need for a rim protector while also keeping the paint unclogged for Westbrook and Beal to drive.


According to Indy and national sources, Washington has called on Turner heavily for years. But, for all the reasons you would prefer Turner, so would we. It points out why we’re probably less likely to trade Turner, ultimately, than Sabonis. Unless we’re thinking that Goga is ready to replace Turner, then, who knows.
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Re: Who Says No? Sabonis for Rui, Bertans and 6th Overall 

Post#68 » by nate33 » Thu Apr 8, 2021 3:30 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:But, for all the reasons you would prefer Turner, so would we. It points out why we’re probably less likely to trade Turner, ultimately, than Sabonis. Unless we’re thinking that Goga is ready to replace Turner, then, who knows.

That makes sense.

The bottom line is that a center is involved in something like half of all defensive plays. He absolutely must be a plus defender in today's game or you can't win. As good as Sabonis is on offense, he's fools gold because he can't protect the paint when it matters. You can find other guys to fill the offensive void if your center can't play offense, but it's nearly impossible to make up for a poor defensive center, no matter how good his teammates are defensively.

We have the same issue with Thomas Bryant, who is a wonderful offensive player. And Orlando finally gave up on Vucevic, who has the same problem. The only team that is winning with a below average defensive center is Denver, and that's only because Jokic is having perhaps the best offensive season of all time.
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Re: Who Says No? Sabonis for Rui, Bertans and 6th Overall 

Post#69 » by Topofthekey » Thu Apr 8, 2021 3:35 pm

nate33 wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:
penbeast0 wrote:(a) Sabonis is a poor fit in Washington, a team with no serious defense that doesn't need scoring nearly as badly. Turner would be more valuable to the Wiz, especially since he can play next to Bryant or next to a PF.
(b) If Washington is looking to win now, why are they trading Bertrans who is definitely a win now piece whose value is currently low (same goes for trading Bryant).
(c) If Washington is building for the long term, they don't trade the pick.

It just doesn't make any sense for the Wiz. Something around Hachimura for Turner (Washington will throw in the expiring contracts of R. Lopez and Ish Smith) makes more sense if you like Hachimura that much -- he made great strides defensively this year but he's not the rim protector you want next to Bryant or Bertans. You save money and get a long term solution at the 4; Washington gets a short term defensive upgrade at the cost of 2 years of rookie salary for a starter.

I don't do it if I'm Indiana because I like Turner next to Sabonis but I'm a dinosaur, I like the two big man style.

I think the idea here is to pair Sabonis with Beal on offense

So either Sabonis goes to Washington, or Beal goes to Indiana

That's the idea, but it's a bad one, particularly with Westbrook in the fold.

As penbeast0 and Dat2U have already suggested, the guy that would fit well in Washington is Turner. He addresses their need for a rim protector while also keeping the paint unclogged for Westbrook and Beal to drive.

So maybe look at Beal to the Pacers then
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Re: Who Says No? Sabonis for Rui, Bertans and 6th Overall 

Post#70 » by nate33 » Thu Apr 8, 2021 3:41 pm

Topofthekey wrote:
nate33 wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:I think the idea here is to pair Sabonis with Beal on offense

So either Sabonis goes to Washington, or Beal goes to Indiana

That's the idea, but it's a bad one, particularly with Westbrook in the fold.

As penbeast0 and Dat2U have already suggested, the guy that would fit well in Washington is Turner. He addresses their need for a rim protector while also keeping the paint unclogged for Westbrook and Beal to drive.

So maybe look at Beal to the Pacers then

If they land a top 4 pick in the lottery, maybe something could be worked out. Otherwise, they don't have the pieces.
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Re: Who Says No? Sabonis for Rui, Bertans and 6th Overall 

Post#71 » by Scoot McGroot » Thu Apr 8, 2021 4:00 pm

nate33 wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:But, for all the reasons you would prefer Turner, so would we. It points out why we’re probably less likely to trade Turner, ultimately, than Sabonis. Unless we’re thinking that Goga is ready to replace Turner, then, who knows.

That makes sense.

The bottom line is that a center is involved in something like half of all defensive plays. He absolutely must be a plus defender in today's game or you can't win. As good as Sabonis is on offense, he's fools gold because he can't protect the paint when it matters. You can find other guys to fill the offensive void if your center can't play offense, but it's nearly impossible to make up for a poor defensive center, no matter how good his teammates are defensively.

We have the same issue with Thomas Bryant, who is a wonderful offensive player. And Orlando finally gave up on Vucevic, who has the same problem. The only team that is winning with a below average defensive center is Denver, and that's only because Jokic is having perhaps the best offensive season of all time.



As a Hoosier, I could’ve told you that :wink:

But otherwise, Sabonis has won us a TON of games over the last couple years with his offensive play. And Minnesota’s issues the last couple years have been KAT’s injuries and games missed much less so than his offensive predilections. It can absolutely be done, but it has to be a really plus offensive player, which I think you really hinted at in your post.
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Re: Who Says No? Sabonis for Rui, Bertans and 6th Overall 

Post#72 » by daoneandonly » Thu Apr 8, 2021 4:47 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
HotelVitale wrote:
daoneandonly wrote:Are people not factoring in that bertans is absolutely negative value? That drives down the package significantly. Sabonis and Siakam are worth more than this package

Yeah there have been many posts in this thread about Bertans dragging the package down.

I'm curious how negative people think he is, though. He makes $16m for the next 3 seasons, and he's one of the best shooters in the game. Wondering if some of the negative valuation of his contract is because he's been injured a little this year and the team hasn't been very good. Duncan Robinson will probably get offers for this amount soon, and Joe Harris makes more already. Seems like the type of player who's overpaid on a bad team but wouldn't be bad value for the right team.


Bertans has 4 years remaining of $16m, $16m, $17m, and $16m. That final year is $5m guaranteed, but likely to end up guaranteed if he’s healthy in 2023-24, and with a player option on it (so if he’s healthy and good, he’s opting out for an increase).

I do think that Bertans having been injured and recovering from Covid has hurt his value for this year. I would also say that he’s a little less useful than Harris, and less valuable, as Joe is better on defense, and can be better hidden, while Bertans is a really tough hide defensively. I’d prefer him as salary filler rather than a Wiggins, obviously. But, right now, I don’t know that his shooting outweighs his contract length and size, and his defensive shortcomings completely. I think at best, it’s maybe a tad positive. Right now, it’s a decent amount negative.


Yea though Im a Mavs fans, the Wizards are what I get on my local sports package. if bertans doesnt have a ridiculously hot shooting night, he's about as useless of a player the NBA has ever seen. He cant defend, rebound, drive, facilitate, etc.
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Re: Who Says No? Sabonis for Rui, Bertans and 6th Overall 

Post#73 » by mg » Thu Apr 8, 2021 11:49 pm

I think it's pretty fair value.
Not sure that Beal+Sabonis gets the Wizards into even the Boston level let alone Philly/Brooklyn/Mil tier in the EC though.
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Re: Who Says No? Sabonis for Rui, Bertans and 6th Overall 

Post#74 » by Topofthekey » Fri Apr 9, 2021 8:20 am

nate33 wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:
nate33 wrote:That's the idea, but it's a bad one, particularly with Westbrook in the fold.

As penbeast0 and Dat2U have already suggested, the guy that would fit well in Washington is Turner. He addresses their need for a rim protector while also keeping the paint unclogged for Westbrook and Beal to drive.

So maybe look at Beal to the Pacers then

If they land a top 4 pick in the lottery, maybe something could be worked out. Otherwise, they don't have the pieces.

If they trade a top 4 pick for Beal, they don't have the fillers to match salary
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Re: Who Says No? Sabonis for Rui, Bertans and 6th Overall 

Post#75 » by Resistance » Fri Apr 9, 2021 8:32 am

Wouldn't Washington have to be really confident that Beal will stay to make a win now move involving their lottery pick?

It wouldn't be much fun to make that type of move and then Beal tells them at the trade deadline next season that he wants out.
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Re: Who Says No? Sabonis for Rui, Bertans and 6th Overall 

Post#76 » by Ruzious » Fri Apr 9, 2021 9:27 am

Topofthekey wrote:
nate33 wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:I think the idea here is to pair Sabonis with Beal on offense

So either Sabonis goes to Washington, or Beal goes to Indiana

That's the idea, but it's a bad one, particularly with Westbrook in the fold.

As penbeast0 and Dat2U have already suggested, the guy that would fit well in Washington is Turner. He addresses their need for a rim protector while also keeping the paint unclogged for Westbrook and Beal to drive.

So maybe look at Beal to the Pacers then

Trading Beal would likely be a move for rebuilding, while trading for Turner would be a move to win now.
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Re: Who Says No? Sabonis for Rui, Bertans and 6th Overall 

Post#77 » by JRoy » Fri Apr 9, 2021 3:10 pm

nate33 wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:But, for all the reasons you would prefer Turner, so would we. It points out why we’re probably less likely to trade Turner, ultimately, than Sabonis. Unless we’re thinking that Goga is ready to replace Turner, then, who knows.

That makes sense.

The bottom line is that a center is involved in something like half of all defensive plays. He absolutely must be a plus defender in today's game or you can't win. As good as Sabonis is on offense, he's fools gold because he can't protect the paint when it matters. You can find other guys to fill the offensive void if your center can't play offense, but it's nearly impossible to make up for a poor defensive center, no matter how good his teammates are defensively.

We have the same issue with Thomas Bryant, who is a wonderful offensive player. And Orlando finally gave up on Vucevic, who has the same problem. The only team that is winning with a below average defensive center is Denver, and that's only because Jokic is having perhaps the best offensive season of all time.


Not saying you’re wrong but POR is winning despite starting Kanter most of the year and his defense is putrid.
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Re: Who Says No? Sabonis for Rui, Bertans and 6th Overall 

Post#78 » by Topofthekey » Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:44 am

Ruzious wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:
nate33 wrote:That's the idea, but it's a bad one, particularly with Westbrook in the fold.

As penbeast0 and Dat2U have already suggested, the guy that would fit well in Washington is Turner. He addresses their need for a rim protector while also keeping the paint unclogged for Westbrook and Beal to drive.

So maybe look at Beal to the Pacers then

Trading Beal would likely be a move for rebuilding, while trading for Turner would be a move to win now.

Something like that

Win now pieces on both teams:
Pacers - Turner, Sabonis, Brogdon, Warren
Wizards - Beal, Westbrook

Rebuilding pieces on both teams:
Pacers - Bitadze, A.Holiday, 2021 FRP (possibly Turner and Sabonis as well since both are 24)
Wizards - Hachimura, Avdija, Bryant, 2021 FRP

Ideally, the trade should be between one team that wants to go for the rebuild and the other that wants to try to win now, so they can swap their relevant pieces
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Re: Who Says No? Sabonis for Rui, Bertans and 6th Overall 

Post#79 » by hcsilla » Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:12 pm

That is simply too much for Sabonis.

IND says yes, WAS declines, IMO.
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Re: Who Says No? Sabonis for Rui, Bertans and 6th Overall 

Post#80 » by countryboy667 » Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:34 am

This is exactly why, along with the nauseating chucking, that makes me (and more others who used to be fans than you might think) hate today's NBA. Wholesale dismantling of teams, constant shuffling of personnel--no continuity.

Hell, this Pacer team hasn't been healthy or together enough this year for a legitimate assessment of however good or bad it is, to be talking about trading basically the entire core for a bunch of maybes who however talented will take at least another whole year or more to have any kind of chemistry and cohesiveness--if any ever DOES develop.

This kind of stuff is bush league, folks--which with all the chucking, pampered a-hole stars jockeying to form a few superteams, destruction of the post and midrange games, along with the disgusting "woke" politicization of what is supposed to be an escape for the fans, is what the NBA has become--bush league.

I guess Im old fashioned, an antique, but I like to see a little cohesiveness and continuity, to be able to tell the players without referring to a program from year to year. It's gotten bad in all the professional sports, but the NBA is by far the worst in that regard.

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