Who Says No? Sabonis for Rui, Bertans and 6th Overall

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Who Says No?

Pacers
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49%
Wizards
22
36%
Neither
9
15%
 
Total votes: 61

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Re: Who Says No? Sabonis for Rui, Bertans and 6th Overall 

Post#41 » by Topofthekey » Wed Apr 7, 2021 2:27 pm

Prokorov wrote:
NYG wrote:Domantas Sabonis for Rui Hachimura, Davis Bertans and 6th Overall Pick

Washington adds an all-star to pair with Beal to help push along the long rebuild and get to the playoffs.

Indy gets a true PF in Hachimura next to Turner while adding a stretch 4 off the bench and a top 10 pick which with Indy’s own lottery pick gives them a nicely balanced roster with depth.


I think the Wiz do... pretty quickly.

I like Sabonis, but like, what exactly is he doing to raise that teams ceiling? Probably not much... especially if you remove guys like Rui and Bertans who are needed role guys to defend or space the floor.

Sabonis hasnt really done a ton for Indy as far as raising ceiling for wins. Rui is cost controlled for another 2-3 years and more cost control out of the #6 pick.

To be honest, even if this was one of those situations where beal was like "trade for sabonis or im gone" id probably still pass and try and trade beal. Harden is a couple tiers above beal and you say how tough it was to build a team to win before he bounced. it will be even tougher with beal.

You have the Nets superteam, the sixers close to figuring it out. Jrue/Giannis/middleton locked in for a few years. Now is not the time for the wiz to "go for it"

Just want to point out that this is categorically untrue

Sabonis has accumulated 4.9 winshares so far this season

That in itself disproves your claim that he doesn't help Pacers win
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Re: Who Says No? Sabonis for Rui, Bertans and 6th Overall 

Post#42 » by Prokorov » Wed Apr 7, 2021 2:28 pm

Topofthekey wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
NYG wrote:Domantas Sabonis for Rui Hachimura, Davis Bertans and 6th Overall Pick

Washington adds an all-star to pair with Beal to help push along the long rebuild and get to the playoffs.

Indy gets a true PF in Hachimura next to Turner while adding a stretch 4 off the bench and a top 10 pick which with Indy’s own lottery pick gives them a nicely balanced roster with depth.


I think the Wiz do... pretty quickly.

I like Sabonis, but like, what exactly is he doing to raise that teams ceiling? Probably not much... especially if you remove guys like Rui and Bertans who are needed role guys to defend or space the floor.

Sabonis hasnt really done a ton for Indy as far as raising ceiling for wins. Rui is cost controlled for another 2-3 years and more cost control out of the #6 pick.

To be honest, even if this was one of those situations where beal was like "trade for sabonis or im gone" id probably still pass and try and trade beal. Harden is a couple tiers above beal and you say how tough it was to build a team to win before he bounced. it will be even tougher with beal.

You have the Nets superteam, the sixers close to figuring it out. Jrue/Giannis/middleton locked in for a few years. Now is not the time for the wiz to "go for it"

Just want to point out that this is categorically untrue

Sabonis has accumulated 4.9 winshares so far this season

That in itself disproves your claim that he doesn't help Pacers win


i never said he didnt help them win. i said he didnt raise their ceiling.
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Re: Who Says No? Sabonis for Rui, Bertans and 6th Overall 

Post#43 » by Topofthekey » Wed Apr 7, 2021 2:31 pm

Prokorov wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
I think the Wiz do... pretty quickly.

I like Sabonis, but like, what exactly is he doing to raise that teams ceiling? Probably not much... especially if you remove guys like Rui and Bertans who are needed role guys to defend or space the floor.

Sabonis hasnt really done a ton for Indy as far as raising ceiling for wins. Rui is cost controlled for another 2-3 years and more cost control out of the #6 pick.

To be honest, even if this was one of those situations where beal was like "trade for sabonis or im gone" id probably still pass and try and trade beal. Harden is a couple tiers above beal and you say how tough it was to build a team to win before he bounced. it will be even tougher with beal.

You have the Nets superteam, the sixers close to figuring it out. Jrue/Giannis/middleton locked in for a few years. Now is not the time for the wiz to "go for it"

Just want to point out that this is categorically untrue

Sabonis has accumulated 4.9 winshares so far this season

That in itself disproves your claim that he doesn't help Pacers win


i never said he didnt help them win. i said he didnt raise their ceiling.

He raised their ceiling by helping them win 4.9 extra games so far

Without him, Pacers would be 17-32 right now, in strong contention to earn a top 3 pick in the draft
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Re: Who Says No? Sabonis for Rui, Bertans and 6th Overall 

Post#44 » by Prokorov » Wed Apr 7, 2021 2:38 pm

Topofthekey wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:Just want to point out that this is categorically untrue

Sabonis has accumulated 4.9 winshares so far this season

That in itself disproves your claim that he doesn't help Pacers win


i never said he didnt help them win. i said he didnt raise their ceiling.

He raised their ceiling by helping them win 4.9 extra games so far

Without him, Pacers would be 17-32 right now, in strong contention to earn a top 3 pick in the draft


They are currently battling for a play-in seed. without him they would be battling for a play-in seed. it isnt like he has them firmly in the 4-6 spot. Even if you can pencil him in as +5 wins taking WS as some set in stone value on winning all by itself, what does that do for the wiz?

The wiz become a 9 seed fighting for a play-in spot while the pacers flip flop and in position for a top 5 pick. how is that more desirable for the wiz? again im not saying tank, but why make a win now move that has you fighting for a 8-10 seed (thats before factoring in the 3 win shares going out with Rui/Bertans).

If im the wiz id much prefer to Keep Rui/2021 pick and send out Beal for Sabonis and a pick or other young asset and invest in the next era
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Re: Who Says No? Sabonis for Rui, Bertans and 6th Overall 

Post#45 » by Topofthekey » Wed Apr 7, 2021 2:44 pm

Prokorov wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
i never said he didnt help them win. i said he didnt raise their ceiling.

He raised their ceiling by helping them win 4.9 extra games so far

Without him, Pacers would be 17-32 right now, in strong contention to earn a top 3 pick in the draft


They are currently battling for a play-in seed. without him they would be battling for a play-in seed . it isnt like he has them firmly in the 4-6 spot. Even if you can pencil him in as +5 wins taking WS as some set in stone value on winning all by itself, what does that do for the wiz?

The wiz become a 9 seed fighting for a play-in spot while the pacers flip flop and in position for a top 5 pick. how is that more desirable for the wiz? again im not saying tank, but why make a win now move that has you fighting for a 8-10 seed (thats before factoring in the 3 win shares going out with Rui/Bertans).

If im the wiz id much prefer to Keep Rui/2021 pick and send out Beal for Sabonis and a pick or other young asset and invest in the next era

No, he has them chasing the 8th playoff seed

Without him, they would be a contender to land a top 3 pick in the draft

Now, if your complain about him is that lifting a team from top 3 pick status to fringe playoffs status isn't good enough, then maybe you are right

But then again, not many players can lift a top 3 pick team to 4-6th seed all by themself?
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Re: Who Says No? Sabonis for Rui, Bertans and 6th Overall 

Post#46 » by Prokorov » Wed Apr 7, 2021 2:51 pm

Topofthekey wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:He raised their ceiling by helping them win 4.9 extra games so far

Without him, Pacers would be 17-32 right now, in strong contention to earn a top 3 pick in the draft


They are currently battling for a play-in seed. without him they would be battling for a play-in seed . it isnt like he has them firmly in the 4-6 spot. Even if you can pencil him in as +5 wins taking WS as some set in stone value on winning all by itself, what does that do for the wiz?

The wiz become a 9 seed fighting for a play-in spot while the pacers flip flop and in position for a top 5 pick. how is that more desirable for the wiz? again im not saying tank, but why make a win now move that has you fighting for a 8-10 seed (thats before factoring in the 3 win shares going out with Rui/Bertans).

If im the wiz id much prefer to Keep Rui/2021 pick and send out Beal for Sabonis and a pick or other young asset and invest in the next era

No, he has them chasing the 8th playoff seed

Without him, they would be a contender to land a top 3 pick in the draft

Now, if your complain about him is that lifting a team from top 3 pick status to fringe playoffs status isn't good enough, then maybe you are right

But then again, not many players can lift a top 3 pick team to 4-6th seed all by themself?


The 8th seed is a play-in seed
Image

I think it is a bit misleading to say something like "lifting a team from top 3 status to fringe playoffs" as if that is a monumental difference. It is also a big misleading to say "competing for the top 3 pick"

The wizards are basically just as close to the playoffs (3.5 games) as they are the 3 seed (3 games). so if you are going to say the wiz are competing for a 3 seed, then you have to also say they are competing for the playoffs.

In either event, this trade doesnt really help the Wiz short or long term. its a hedge that gets them a play-in game (Maybe). They should stand put and if they make the play in great, if not top 5 pick. or sell off beal for an under 25 all-star like Sabonis. but dont touch those future pieces for someone who doesnt make you at least alock 4-6 seed
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Re: Who Says No? Sabonis for Rui, Bertans and 6th Overall 

Post#47 » by Topofthekey » Wed Apr 7, 2021 3:02 pm

Prokorov wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
They are currently battling for a play-in seed. without him they would be battling for a play-in seed . it isnt like he has them firmly in the 4-6 spot. Even if you can pencil him in as +5 wins taking WS as some set in stone value on winning all by itself, what does that do for the wiz?

The wiz become a 9 seed fighting for a play-in spot while the pacers flip flop and in position for a top 5 pick. how is that more desirable for the wiz? again im not saying tank, but why make a win now move that has you fighting for a 8-10 seed (thats before factoring in the 3 win shares going out with Rui/Bertans).

If im the wiz id much prefer to Keep Rui/2021 pick and send out Beal for Sabonis and a pick or other young asset and invest in the next era

No, he has them chasing the 8th playoff seed

Without him, they would be a contender to land a top 3 pick in the draft

Now, if your complain about him is that lifting a team from top 3 pick status to fringe playoffs status isn't good enough, then maybe you are right

But then again, not many players can lift a top 3 pick team to 4-6th seed all by themself?


The 8th seed is a play-in seed
Image

I think it is a bit misleading to say something like "lifting a team from top 3 status to fringe playoffs" as if that is a monumental difference. It is also a big misleading to say "competing for the top 3 pick"

The wizards are basically just as close to the playoffs (3.5 games) as they are the 3 seed (3 games). so if you are going to say the wiz are competing for a 3 seed, then you have to also say they are competing for the playoffs.

In either event, this trade doesnt really help the Wiz short or long term. its a hedge that gets them a play-in game (Maybe). They should stand put and if they make the play in great, if not top 5 pick. or sell off beal for an under 25 all-star like Sabonis. but dont touch those future pieces for someone who doesnt make you at least alock 4-6 seed

To the first part in bold, yes, which is why I said Pacers are a fringe playoffs team. Is there any part of that statement that you disagree with?

As for the second part in bold, I mean, if you want to be technical about it, even the 7th seed is in contention to land a top 3 pick, isn't it?

Fact remains that if you removed Sabonis' 4.9 winshares from the Pacers, with a record of 17-32, they would have a 42.1% chance of landing a top 4 pick, as per tankathon

http://www.tankathon.com

Which is why I said, Sabonis lifted the Pacers from being a team that is in contention of landing a top 3 pick in the draft, which they would be without him, to a fringe playoffs team with him

Which part is misleading?
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Re: Who Says No? Sabonis for Rui, Bertans and 6th Overall 

Post#48 » by Prokorov » Wed Apr 7, 2021 3:11 pm

Topofthekey wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:No, he has them chasing the 8th playoff seed

Without him, they would be a contender to land a top 3 pick in the draft

Now, if your complain about him is that lifting a team from top 3 pick status to fringe playoffs status isn't good enough, then maybe you are right

But then again, not many players can lift a top 3 pick team to 4-6th seed all by themself?


The 8th seed is a play-in seed
Image

I think it is a bit misleading to say something like "lifting a team from top 3 status to fringe playoffs" as if that is a monumental difference. It is also a big misleading to say "competing for the top 3 pick"

The wizards are basically just as close to the playoffs (3.5 games) as they are the 3 seed (3 games). so if you are going to say the wiz are competing for a 3 seed, then you have to also say they are competing for the playoffs.

In either event, this trade doesnt really help the Wiz short or long term. its a hedge that gets them a play-in game (Maybe). They should stand put and if they make the play in great, if not top 5 pick. or sell off beal for an under 25 all-star like Sabonis. but dont touch those future pieces for someone who doesnt make you at least alock 4-6 seed

To the first part in bold, yes, which is why I said Pacers are a fringe playoffs team. Is there any part of that statement that you disagree with?

As for the second part in bold, I mean, if you want to be technical about it, even the 7th seed is in contention to land a top 3 pick, isn't it?

Which part is misleading?


I the parts i found misleading where:

1) I said the pacers were figthing for a play-in seed. you stated "no, he has them chasing the 8th playoff seed." The 8th seed is a play-in seed (see above image)

2) You said the wiz are/pacers would be if you bump them down to 17 wins "chasing the 3 seed". at 17 wins i pointed out that they are just as close to chasing the playoffs as they are to chasing the 3 seed. I think saying something like "he has them chasing the 8th seed" and "otherwise would be chasing the 3 seed" is implying there is a big difference between the 2, which there is not

Fact remains that if you removed Sabonis' 4.9 winshares from the Pacers, with a record of 17-32, they would have a 42.1% chance of landing a top 4 pick, as per tankathon

http://www.tankathon.com

Which is why I said, Sabonis lifted the Pacers from being a team that is in contention of landing a top 3 pick in the draft, which they would be without him, to a fringe playoffs team with him


The trade has Rui/Bertans and their 3.1 win shares coming back. which would put the pacers at a 20-29 record (20.3% chance of a top 3 pick).
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Re: Who Says No? Sabonis for Rui, Bertans and 6th Overall 

Post#49 » by HotelVitale » Wed Apr 7, 2021 3:42 pm

daoneandonly wrote:Are people not factoring in that bertans is absolutely negative value? That drives down the package significantly. Sabonis and Siakam are worth more than this package

Yeah there have been many posts in this thread about Bertans dragging the package down.

I'm curious how negative people think he is, though. He makes $16m for the next 3 seasons, and he's one of the best shooters in the game. Wondering if some of the negative valuation of his contract is because he's been injured a little this year and the team hasn't been very good. Duncan Robinson will probably get offers for this amount soon, and Joe Harris makes more already. Seems like the type of player who's overpaid on a bad team but wouldn't be bad value for the right team.
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Re: Who Says No? Sabonis for Rui, Bertans and 6th Overall 

Post#50 » by Scoot McGroot » Wed Apr 7, 2021 3:49 pm

HotelVitale wrote:
daoneandonly wrote:Are people not factoring in that bertans is absolutely negative value? That drives down the package significantly. Sabonis and Siakam are worth more than this package

Yeah there have been many posts in this thread about Bertans dragging the package down.

I'm curious how negative people think he is, though. He makes $16m for the next 3 seasons, and he's one of the best shooters in the game. Wondering if some of the negative valuation of his contract is because he's been injured a little this year and the team hasn't been very good. Duncan Robinson will probably get offers for this amount soon, and Joe Harris makes more already. Seems like the type of player who's overpaid on a bad team but wouldn't be bad value for the right team.


Bertans has 4 years remaining of $16m, $16m, $17m, and $16m. That final year is $5m guaranteed, but likely to end up guaranteed if he’s healthy in 2023-24, and with a player option on it (so if he’s healthy and good, he’s opting out for an increase).

I do think that Bertans having been injured and recovering from Covid has hurt his value for this year. I would also say that he’s a little less useful than Harris, and less valuable, as Joe is better on defense, and can be better hidden, while Bertans is a really tough hide defensively. I’d prefer him as salary filler rather than a Wiggins, obviously. But, right now, I don’t know that his shooting outweighs his contract length and size, and his defensive shortcomings completely. I think at best, it’s maybe a tad positive. Right now, it’s a decent amount negative.
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Re: Who Says No? Sabonis for Rui, Bertans and 6th Overall 

Post#51 » by Topofthekey » Wed Apr 7, 2021 3:51 pm

Prokorov wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
The 8th seed is a play-in seed
Image

I think it is a bit misleading to say something like "lifting a team from top 3 status to fringe playoffs" as if that is a monumental difference. It is also a big misleading to say "competing for the top 3 pick"

The wizards are basically just as close to the playoffs (3.5 games) as they are the 3 seed (3 games). so if you are going to say the wiz are competing for a 3 seed, then you have to also say they are competing for the playoffs.

In either event, this trade doesnt really help the Wiz short or long term. its a hedge that gets them a play-in game (Maybe). They should stand put and if they make the play in great, if not top 5 pick. or sell off beal for an under 25 all-star like Sabonis. but dont touch those future pieces for someone who doesnt make you at least alock 4-6 seed

To the first part in bold, yes, which is why I said Pacers are a fringe playoffs team. Is there any part of that statement that you disagree with?

As for the second part in bold, I mean, if you want to be technical about it, even the 7th seed is in contention to land a top 3 pick, isn't it?

Which part is misleading?


I the parts i found misleading where:

1) I said the pacers were figthing for a play-in seed. you stated "no, he has them chasing the 8th playoff seed." The 8th seed is a play-in seed (see above image)

2) You said the wiz are/pacers would be if you bump them down to 17 wins "chasing the 3 seed". at 17 wins i pointed out that they are just as close to chasing the playoffs as they are to chasing the 3 seed. I think saying something like "he has them chasing the 8th seed" and "otherwise would be chasing the 3 seed" is implying there is a big difference between the 2, which there is not

Fact remains that if you removed Sabonis' 4.9 winshares from the Pacers, with a record of 17-32, they would have a 42.1% chance of landing a top 4 pick, as per tankathon

http://www.tankathon.com

Which is why I said, Sabonis lifted the Pacers from being a team that is in contention of landing a top 3 pick in the draft, which they would be without him, to a fringe playoffs team with him


The trade has Rui/Bertans and their 3.1 win shares coming back. which would put the pacers at a 20-29 record (20.3% chance of a top 3 pick).


1) I don't understand. So are you disagreeing with me that Sabonis is helping the Pacers chase the 8th seed?

2) There absolutely is a huge difference between where Pacers are right now, and where they theoretically would be without Sabonis

With Sabonis, they are currently the 9th seed, chasing the 8th seed, being 2 games behind. Without Sabonis, they would be 7 games behind the 8th seed

That is absolutely a huge difference


Edit:


And I'm not sure whether you are trolling or genuinely confused, but no, you cannot combine the winshares of multiple players like that, and compare it to the winshares of one single player, that's just erroneous. For you to count BOTH Rui and Bertans' winshares, someone else in addition to Sabonis will need to make room for them in the Pacers rotation. Bertans is averaging 24.5mpg right now. Closest player on the Pacers with that playing time is McDermott. For you to slot in Bertans' winshares, you would also have to remove McDermott's winshares, which is 2.8. So yes, while Pacers are gaining 3.1 winshares from Rui + Bertans, they will be losing 4.9 + 2.8 winshares from Sabonis and McDermott. In other words, they are still losing 4.6 winshares nett, which still puts them at 17-22
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Re: Who Says No? Sabonis for Rui, Bertans and 6th Overall 

Post#52 » by HotelVitale » Wed Apr 7, 2021 3:58 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
HotelVitale wrote:
daoneandonly wrote:Are people not factoring in that bertans is absolutely negative value? That drives down the package significantly. Sabonis and Siakam are worth more than this package

Yeah there have been many posts in this thread about Bertans dragging the package down. I'm curious how negative people think he is, though. He makes $16m for the next 3 seasons, and he's one of the best shooters in the game. Wondering if some of the negative valuation of his contract is because he's been injured a little this year and the team hasn't been very good. Duncan Robinson will probably get offers for this amount soon, and Joe Harris makes more already. Seems like the type of player who's overpaid on a bad team but wouldn't be bad value for the right team.
Bertans has 4 years remaining of $16m, $16m, $17m, and $16m. That final year is $5m guaranteed, but likely to end up guaranteed if he’s healthy in 2023-24, and with a player option on it (so if he’s healthy and good, he’s opting out for an increase). I do think that Bertans having been injured and recovering from Covid has hurt his value for this year. I would also say that he’s a little less useful than Harris, and less valuable, as Joe is better on defense, and can be better hidden, while Bertans is a really tough hide defensively. I’d prefer him as salary filler rather than a Wiggins, obviously. But, right now, I don’t know that his shooting outweighs his contract length and size, and his defensive shortcomings completely. I think at best, it’s maybe a tad positive. Right now, it’s a decent amount negative.
Thanks, just looked up the asterisk on the final year and you're right: if he plays 75% of games the year before he gets that next year.

I can agree with that valuation, but folks on this thread seem to be insinuating that he's a massive albatross or something. His contract was regular market value last year and he's in his prime, don't think it's that bad a deal for a team that needs someone like him. Just could be a bad deal for the type of teams who are decent or good and need to be very careful about flexibility and all of their next moves.
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Re: Who Says No? Sabonis for Rui, Bertans and 6th Overall 

Post#53 » by Scoot McGroot » Wed Apr 7, 2021 4:58 pm

HotelVitale wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
HotelVitale wrote:Yeah there have been many posts in this thread about Bertans dragging the package down. I'm curious how negative people think he is, though. He makes $16m for the next 3 seasons, and he's one of the best shooters in the game. Wondering if some of the negative valuation of his contract is because he's been injured a little this year and the team hasn't been very good. Duncan Robinson will probably get offers for this amount soon, and Joe Harris makes more already. Seems like the type of player who's overpaid on a bad team but wouldn't be bad value for the right team.
Bertans has 4 years remaining of $16m, $16m, $17m, and $16m. That final year is $5m guaranteed, but likely to end up guaranteed if he’s healthy in 2023-24, and with a player option on it (so if he’s healthy and good, he’s opting out for an increase). I do think that Bertans having been injured and recovering from Covid has hurt his value for this year. I would also say that he’s a little less useful than Harris, and less valuable, as Joe is better on defense, and can be better hidden, while Bertans is a really tough hide defensively. I’d prefer him as salary filler rather than a Wiggins, obviously. But, right now, I don’t know that his shooting outweighs his contract length and size, and his defensive shortcomings completely. I think at best, it’s maybe a tad positive. Right now, it’s a decent amount negative.
Thanks, just looked up the asterisk on the final year and you're right: if he plays 75% of games the year before he gets that next year.

I can agree with that valuation, but folks on this thread seem to be insinuating that he's a massive albatross or something. His contract was regular market value last year and he's in his prime, don't think it's that bad a deal for a team that needs someone like him. Just could be a bad deal for the type of teams who are decent or good and need to be very careful about flexibility and all of their next moves.



Yeah. I think the gut reaction to a long term deal on a role player is it’s either a good deal, or it’s a TERRIBLE deal, when most of the deals are in between. I think the length is worrisome, and that every year it will fluctuate from good to bad based on how well Bertans is shooting. I love long range shooting, so I’m apt to give him a little leeway, but others will see him as one dimensional, which is true, too.
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Re: Who Says No? Sabonis for Rui, Bertans and 6th Overall 

Post#54 » by Wizop » Wed Apr 7, 2021 5:37 pm

I've come around to being willing to move Sabonis and keeping Turner but I think if we do that we're sending him West where we don't have to play him. The need though is a true 4 who can defend outside as well as shoot so this deal has promise.
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Re: Who Says No? Sabonis for Rui, Bertans and 6th Overall 

Post#55 » by Topofthekey » Wed Apr 7, 2021 6:09 pm

Wizop wrote:I've come around to being willing to move Sabonis and keeping Turner but I think if we do that we're sending him West where we don't have to play him. The need though is a true 4 who can defend outside as well as shoot so this deal has promise.

Depending on what happens to the Wolves pick, Warriors look like a great trading partner for Pacers this offseason

Pacers have the pieces that turns them into championship favourites once again in Turner, Sabonis, and Brogdon

Warriors have the Wolves pick, which could get Pacers their future franchise player. They also have Wiseman, who Pacers can either retain and carry on with the two big experiment by pairing him with Turner or Sabonis, whichever one that isn't traded to the Warriors, or they can flip him to a 3rd team for other assets
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Re: Who Says No? Sabonis for Rui, Bertans and 6th Overall 

Post#56 » by Prokorov » Wed Apr 7, 2021 6:21 pm

Topofthekey wrote:
1) I don't understand. So are you disagreeing with me that Sabonis is helping the Pacers chase the 8th seed?


No, im pointing out that the 8th seed is still a play-in seed.

2) There absolutely is a huge difference between where Pacers are right now, and where they theoretically would be without Sabonis

With Sabonis, they are currently the 9th seed, chasing the 8th seed, being 2 games behind. Without Sabonis, they would be 7 games behind the 8th seed

That is absolutely a huge difference


The 8th seed is irrelevant. its a road game in the play-in round. They would be 3 games out of the play-in round without sabonis in this hypothetical.
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Re: Who Says No? Sabonis for Rui, Bertans and 6th Overall 

Post#57 » by Topofthekey » Wed Apr 7, 2021 6:55 pm

Prokorov wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:
1) I don't understand. So are you disagreeing with me that Sabonis is helping the Pacers chase the 8th seed?


No, im pointing out that the 8th seed is still a play-in seed.

2) There absolutely is a huge difference between where Pacers are right now, and where they theoretically would be without Sabonis

With Sabonis, they are currently the 9th seed, chasing the 8th seed, being 2 games behind. Without Sabonis, they would be 7 games behind the 8th seed

That is absolutely a huge difference


The 8th seed is irrelevant. its a road game in the play-in round. They would be 3 games out of the play-in round without sabonis in this hypothetical.

I'm not sure where you are trying to take this, really

If you remember, this discussion started with me pointing out to you that your claim of Sabonis not raising the ceiling for wins for his team is categorically incorrect

So far, all you've been doing is trying to split hairs and argue about the relevance of an 8th seed?

It's very simple, really

With Sabonis, Pacers are currently 22-27 and the 9th seed and 2 games behind the 8th seed

Without Sabonis, Pacers would be 17-32 and instead be 7 games behind the 8th seed

That is a very noticeable difference, and as I said it renders your claim that Sabonis doesn't raise his team's ceiling for wins incorrect
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Re: Who Says No? Sabonis for Rui, Bertans and 6th Overall 

Post#58 » by pacers33granger » Wed Apr 7, 2021 9:04 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
HotelVitale wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote: Bertans has 4 years remaining of $16m, $16m, $17m, and $16m. That final year is $5m guaranteed, but likely to end up guaranteed if he’s healthy in 2023-24, and with a player option on it (so if he’s healthy and good, he’s opting out for an increase). I do think that Bertans having been injured and recovering from Covid has hurt his value for this year. I would also say that he’s a little less useful than Harris, and less valuable, as Joe is better on defense, and can be better hidden, while Bertans is a really tough hide defensively. I’d prefer him as salary filler rather than a Wiggins, obviously. But, right now, I don’t know that his shooting outweighs his contract length and size, and his defensive shortcomings completely. I think at best, it’s maybe a tad positive. Right now, it’s a decent amount negative.
Thanks, just looked up the asterisk on the final year and you're right: if he plays 75% of games the year before he gets that next year.

I can agree with that valuation, but folks on this thread seem to be insinuating that he's a massive albatross or something. His contract was regular market value last year and he's in his prime, don't think it's that bad a deal for a team that needs someone like him. Just could be a bad deal for the type of teams who are decent or good and need to be very careful about flexibility and all of their next moves.



Yeah. I think the gut reaction to a long term deal on a role player is it’s either a good deal, or it’s a TERRIBLE deal, when most of the deals are in between. I think the length is worrisome, and that every year it will fluctuate from good to bad based on how well Bertans is shooting. I love long range shooting, so I’m apt to give him a little leeway, but others will see him as one dimensional, which is true, too.


The issue I have is that the current version of Bertans may very well be the real player and not the version Washington had last year. His SA career had him at about 6 ppg on 40% from three with 3.5 attempts per game. Then in Washington he shot up to 15 ppg on 42% from three with nearly 9 attempts a game. He shot that well his last year in SA, but on half the attempts.

I see almost no way he justifies that contract as, even at his best, he's severely limited at everything outside of shooting. A fine player for sure, but woefully overpaid in both years and dollars.
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Re: Who Says No? Sabonis for Rui, Bertans and 6th Overall 

Post#59 » by NYG » Thu Apr 8, 2021 1:10 am

The fact the poll is so evenly split kind of makes me feel like it's fair.
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Re: Who Says No? Sabonis for Rui, Bertans and 6th Overall 

Post#60 » by Wizop » Thu Apr 8, 2021 1:43 am

NYG wrote:The fact the poll is so evenly split kind of makes me feel like it's fair.
I want a trade to make my team better. A trade can be fair in terms of "value" and still not be a good move.

Sent from my phone.

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