Trade Deadline Retrospective: Any Surprises?

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Re: Trade Deadline Retrospective: Any Surprises? 

Post#21 » by Scoot McGroot » Tue May 4, 2021 5:55 pm

BK_2020 wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:I’m sure his shooting will bounce back in time, and if it happens by the playoffs, all will be fine, but that deadline, for not giving up much value, was still abjectly terrible for the Celtics so far. They burned the huge TPE on Fournier, and then moved Theis in a 3 way deal and somehow walked away with maybe the worst return of the 3 teams, having already waived Wagner. As penbeast0 pointed out, Gafford has been good for them, and he would’ve been a much better fit in Boston than was Wagner.

Again, if Fournier’s shooting catches up in the playoffs, all will be forgotten, but so far, not great.


You'd have to be extremely biased to think that 2 distant seconds (one of them lesser of BOS or Grizz pick) for half a season and PO of Fournier is "abjectly terrible." 2 second rounders may not play a single game, especially for a team currently rostering 10 players with 5 or fewer years of experience.


I’d didn’t say the 2nds were HUGE VALUE or anything of the sort. But, You would have to agree that the huge TPE was potentially a great tool to use in combination with other value pieces to acquire something useful, right? Also, giving up Theis to waive Wagner, bench Kornet, and not even get a Gafford out of the deal, was pretty poor use of resources.

It’s not throwing away the future or anything, but so far, it’s a bad misfire from Ainge and a waste of the few resources he has left without dealing a key player.
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Re: Trade Deadline Retrospective: Any Surprises? 

Post#22 » by BK_2020 » Tue May 4, 2021 6:06 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
BK_2020 wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:I’m sure his shooting will bounce back in time, and if it happens by the playoffs, all will be fine, but that deadline, for not giving up much value, was still abjectly terrible for the Celtics so far. They burned the huge TPE on Fournier, and then moved Theis in a 3 way deal and somehow walked away with maybe the worst return of the 3 teams, having already waived Wagner. As penbeast0 pointed out, Gafford has been good for them, and he would’ve been a much better fit in Boston than was Wagner.

Again, if Fournier’s shooting catches up in the playoffs, all will be forgotten, but so far, not great.


You'd have to be extremely biased to think that 2 distant seconds (one of them lesser of BOS or Grizz pick) for half a season and PO of Fournier is "abjectly terrible." 2 second rounders may not play a single game, especially for a team currently rostering 10 players with 5 or fewer years of experience.


I’d didn’t say the 2nds were HUGE VALUE or anything of the sort. But, You would have to agree that the huge TPE was potentially a great tool to use in combination with other value pieces to acquire something useful, right? Also, giving up Theis to waive Wagner, bench Kornet, and not even get a Gafford out of the deal, was pretty poor use of resources.

It’s not throwing away the future or anything, but so far, it’s a bad misfire from Ainge and a waste of the few resources he has left without dealing a key player.

Actually I don't have to agree and I in fact don't agree. There's really no great opportunity cost lost in using the TPE on Fournier, in fact Fournier is exactly the type of low-price rental that the $28 mil TPE could be used for.
Do you even know what players are even available to fit in to a $28 mil. TPE? Do you think Boston could've used the TPE to trade for James Harden or Zion or something?
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Re: Trade Deadline Retrospective: Any Surprises? 

Post#23 » by shrink » Tue May 4, 2021 6:12 pm

I think in Minnesota, the biggest surprise was that Rosas was one of seven GMs that made no move whatsoever. Heck, even the Spurs did something!

Last deadline Rosas was the #1 most active GM, even trading many of the free agents he had signed six months ago. After the trade deadline last year, He kept only two players on the roster that he had inherited eight months earlier (Towns and Okogie). Plus, last offseason, Rosas had made several moves to be a facilitator at the deadline, like leaving their 15th roster spot open, and combining Spellman and Jacob Evans for a very tradable $5 mil expiring in Ed Davis. Plus, the Wolves were a horribly unbalanced team, with too many guards and no future PF on the roster. And finally, they had the worst record in the NBA.

I was shocked that Rosas pulled the Hoosiers Norman Dale, and effectively said, “my team is on the floor.”
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Re: Trade Deadline Retrospective: Any Surprises? 

Post#24 » by Buzzard » Tue May 4, 2021 6:20 pm

Buzzard wrote:From what I have seen, Rose has been great for the Knicks. His veteran presence looks like exactly what they needed. I can say the same for Lou Williams.

He has really become a key member of the Hawks bench; while also starting one game due to all the injuries. The Hawks are 12 and 5 in the games he has played in. Rondo was pretty much a disappointing Mr Irrelevant for most of the season.

I felt like I should clear this up. Rose has surprised me with how well he is playing. I knew he could still score but he seems to be much more consistent and injury free than past seasons.

What's surprised me most about Lou is how well he seems to be fitting in. I always check out the bench during time outs to check out the activity. Lou seems to be really fitting in. Smiling, laughing, high fiving, talking on the sidelines. I was worried about his attitude moving from a contender to a borderline playoff team. His play has been solid and he seems to be fitting I really well
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Re: Trade Deadline Retrospective: Any Surprises? 

Post#25 » by Texas Chuck » Tue May 4, 2021 6:22 pm

BK_2020 wrote:Do you even know what players are even available to fit in to a $28 mil. TPE?


Yes we know what salaries fit into it. Let us know if you need some help with the math. :D

And its fine to argue that the Celtics made a good deal. But its not fine to argue that using the TPE doesn't represent a significant opportunity cost because it obviously does.
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Re: Trade Deadline Retrospective: Any Surprises? 

Post#26 » by jayjaysee » Tue May 4, 2021 6:40 pm

A BETTER DJ wrote:IMO the Magic came out on top trading away 3 guys that weren't taking us anywhere and getting some surprise performers and picks. Next season should be interesting.


Yeah, most of me wants to praise Orlando for doing a quick one year teardown and how starting next year they should be able to just play the kids. How they got good value for the vets they sent out and how they have plenty of lottery tickets (on roster and future picks) to build something fans can be excited for.

But. I think if they had done the exact same thing last year or two years ago, like they should have - they’d have 2 much better prospects on their roster while still holding a bunch of other teams picks.

But Orlando does have an exciting future now and I really like holding onto Ross as a leader. All of the BTS things I’ve seen in Orlando, I see him with young guys and seems very positive.
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Re: Trade Deadline Retrospective: Any Surprises? 

Post#27 » by BK_2020 » Tue May 4, 2021 6:53 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
BK_2020 wrote:Do you even know what players are even available to fit in to a $28 mil. TPE?


Yes we know what salaries fit into it. Let us know if you need some help with the math. :D

And its fine to argue that the Celtics made a good deal. But its not fine to argue that using the TPE doesn't represent a significant opportunity cost because it obviously does.

Feel free to give me a list of realistic trade targets this off-season (or during the last deadline) then?
TPE didn't represent a significant opportunity cost because very few players fit all of the following three criteria:
1. salary fit
2. worth the price to obtain
3. BOS had the assets to obtain
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Re: Trade Deadline Retrospective: Any Surprises? 

Post#28 » by cl2117 » Wed May 5, 2021 10:14 am

Scoot McGroot wrote:
BK_2020 wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:I’m sure his shooting will bounce back in time, and if it happens by the playoffs, all will be fine, but that deadline, for not giving up much value, was still abjectly terrible for the Celtics so far. They burned the huge TPE on Fournier, and then moved Theis in a 3 way deal and somehow walked away with maybe the worst return of the 3 teams, having already waived Wagner. As penbeast0 pointed out, Gafford has been good for them, and he would’ve been a much better fit in Boston than was Wagner.

Again, if Fournier’s shooting catches up in the playoffs, all will be forgotten, but so far, not great.


You'd have to be extremely biased to think that 2 distant seconds (one of them lesser of BOS or Grizz pick) for half a season and PO of Fournier is "abjectly terrible." 2 second rounders may not play a single game, especially for a team currently rostering 10 players with 5 or fewer years of experience.


I’d didn’t say the 2nds were HUGE VALUE or anything of the sort. But, You would have to agree that the huge TPE was potentially a great tool to use in combination with other value pieces to acquire something useful, right? Also, giving up Theis to waive Wagner, bench Kornet, and not even get a Gafford out of the deal, was pretty poor use of resources.

It’s not throwing away the future or anything, but so far, it’s a bad misfire from Ainge and a waste of the few resources he has left without dealing a key player.

100% agreed on the TPE. I thought any player on an expiring deal should have been a non-starter since it's the only way the C's will be able to add significant salary in the next couple years. If Fournier is re-signed for something between his current contract (5/85) and Harrison Barnes' (4/85), then I'm happy with it. Ainge would have effectively landed the same calibre of player at a fraction of the cost in terms of trade value and on a contract that can be used as good filler for a future big-name trade. Fournier re-signed at 4/80 would make me very happy with the move overall.

The issue is just that there is so much money for FA's this summer and the market is pretty thin in terms of talent. C's can't afford to sign him at any price because of the tax bill they'd be facing (plus the fear of another albatross contract) and yet it's shaping up for him to get overpaid. I'm worried it'll be a rental at which stage it was an incredibly short sighted move.

Where I disagree with you is on the Theis side of things. On paper it's a total dud of a trade, no denying that. Theis had the most on court value, Gafford the most potential and C's got the 2 worst players coming their way. Originally I understood why it had to happen, tax purposes, but subsequently what it's done for Robert Williams' development has been worth so much more than that.

I'm a huge Theis fan, so by no means is it that traditional "addition by subtraction" situation, but clearing out the C rotation from a 3 headed monster to a TT/Timelord duo has been a game changer for Boston. He's jumped up from 15 minutes a game to 25 and his crazy good advanced stats have stayed consistent.

Averaged 23 minutes a game in April and he put up: 10/8/3/1 (pts/reb/ast/blk) with a ORTG of 144 and a DRTG of 104.

I don't know if that at all was part of the plan in terms of dumping Theis for scraps, but whether intentional or not it's unlocked a serious weapon for the C's.
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Re: Trade Deadline Retrospective: Any Surprises? 

Post#29 » by Scoot McGroot » Wed May 5, 2021 1:28 pm

cl2117 wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
BK_2020 wrote:
You'd have to be extremely biased to think that 2 distant seconds (one of them lesser of BOS or Grizz pick) for half a season and PO of Fournier is "abjectly terrible." 2 second rounders may not play a single game, especially for a team currently rostering 10 players with 5 or fewer years of experience.


I’d didn’t say the 2nds were HUGE VALUE or anything of the sort. But, You would have to agree that the huge TPE was potentially a great tool to use in combination with other value pieces to acquire something useful, right? Also, giving up Theis to waive Wagner, bench Kornet, and not even get a Gafford out of the deal, was pretty poor use of resources.

It’s not throwing away the future or anything, but so far, it’s a bad misfire from Ainge and a waste of the few resources he has left without dealing a key player.

100% agreed on the TPE. I thought any player on an expiring deal should have been a non-starter since it's the only way the C's will be able to add significant salary in the next couple years. If Fournier is re-signed for something between his current contract (5/85) and Harrison Barnes' (4/85), then I'm happy with it. Ainge would have effectively landed the same calibre of player at a fraction of the cost in terms of trade value and on a contract that can be used as good filler for a future big-name trade. Fournier re-signed at 4/80 would make me very happy with the move overall.

The issue is just that there is so much money for FA's this summer and the market is pretty thin in terms of talent. C's can't afford to sign him at any price because of the tax bill they'd be facing (plus the fear of another albatross contract) and yet it's shaping up for him to get overpaid. I'm worried it'll be a rental at which stage it was an incredibly short sighted move.

Where I disagree with you is on the Theis side of things. On paper it's a total dud of a trade, no denying that. Theis had the most on court value, Gafford the most potential and C's got the 2 worst players coming their way. Originally I understood why it had to happen, tax purposes, but subsequently what it's done for Robert Williams' development has been worth so much more than that.

I'm a huge Theis fan, so by no means is it that traditional "addition by subtraction" situation, but clearing out the C rotation from a 3 headed monster to a TT/Timelord duo has been a game changer for Boston. He's jumped up from 15 minutes a game to 25 and his crazy good advanced stats have stayed consistent.

Averaged 23 minutes a game in April and he put up: 10/8/3/1 (pts/reb/ast/blk) with a ORTG of 144 and a DRTG of 104.

I don't know if that at all was part of the plan in terms of dumping Theis for scraps, but whether intentional or not it's unlocked a serious weapon for the C's.


I’m all about clearing the way a bit for Robert, but having Gafford on the bench waiting, instead of having waived Wagner, would be a much better insurance policy. And it would’ve saved them more to get under the tax. In this small case, they could’ve done all the things (got the better player in Gafford over Wagner, cleared the role for Williams, and gotten under the tax).
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Re: Trade Deadline Retrospective: Any Surprises? 

Post#30 » by BK_2020 » Wed May 5, 2021 1:52 pm

Not getting Gafford is just not such a big deal that it amounts to "abject failure."
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Re: Trade Deadline Retrospective: Any Surprises? 

Post#31 » by Scoot McGroot » Wed May 5, 2021 2:15 pm

BK_2020 wrote:Not getting Gafford is just not such a big deal that it amounts to "abject failure."


Obviously not. No one said that one move was. I certainly didn’t. But imagine whatever you want to read, I guess. :dontknow:
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Re: Trade Deadline Retrospective: Any Surprises? 

Post#32 » by cl2117 » Wed May 5, 2021 7:08 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:I’m all about clearing the way a bit for Robert, but having Gafford on the bench waiting, instead of having waived Wagner, would be a much better insurance policy. And it would’ve saved them more to get under the tax. In this small case, they could’ve done all the things (got the better player in Gafford over Wagner, cleared the role for Williams, and gotten under the tax).

I think yes and no. Yes that's obviously better value, but Gafford is somewhat redundant to what TT/Timelord already give you. C's ended up with Kornet/Wagner who are stretch 5's as opposed to rim-runners and I think there's an argument to be made about fit vs. talent there (even though both Kornet/Wagner ended up being useless, I can see the logic).

Was a surprise that Mo got waived and Kornet stuck, but think that just goes to show C's were looking for a stretch 5 and not thinking long-term (even if that was a mistake).

So while I'm 100% on the same page with you that they got the worst return in that deal, I'm still ok with it because of the knock-on effects. The trade was made to get under the line, open up minutes for Williams and (presumably) get a stretch 5 and that's what it did. And I'm just not sure Williams or Gafford would be playing as well as they are if they are on the same squad (although I'd love to be able to roll out 48 combined minutes of that type of C and see what happens).

Definitely stings a bit to see Gafford doing so well in WAS, but I've got a much bigger issue with the way we used the TPE than the admittedly bad value on the Theis deal. Although I HATED both moves at the time, so the fact that they're not as bad as I thought they were might be giving me rose tinted glasses at the moment.
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Re: Trade Deadline Retrospective: Any Surprises? 

Post#33 » by nolang1 » Thu May 6, 2021 2:48 am

The Bjelica deal did not shock me; he was just bad and out of shape this season and too many people were stuck on the narrative that Bagley over Luka was the worst draft pick ever to see that Bjelica wasn't even a better option for the Kings this year despite being 10+ years older.

I wasn't expecting the Wizards' fortunes to turn on the Gafford trade, but at the same time they were really screwed by Covid earlier in the year.
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Re: Trade Deadline Retrospective: Any Surprises? 

Post#34 » by Devilanche » Thu May 6, 2021 11:48 am

Dn4sty wrote:This is minor but I assumed OKC would have moved muscala. They didn’t and now he’s not playing to give young guys a shot

I guess he’s probably a locker room leader or he’s a good mentor for some of the guys . Can’t believe he’s not worth at least a late future second somewhere.
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Re: Trade Deadline Retrospective: Any Surprises? 

Post#35 » by hugepatsfan » Thu May 6, 2021 3:33 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:I’m sure his shooting will bounce back in time, and if it happens by the playoffs, all will be fine, but that deadline, for not giving up much value, was still abjectly terrible for the Celtics so far. They burned the huge TPE on Fournier, and then moved Theis in a 3 way deal and somehow walked away with maybe the worst return of the 3 teams, having already waived Wagner. As penbeast0 pointed out, Gafford has been good for them, and he would’ve been a much better fit in Boston than was Wagner.

Again, if Fournier’s shooting catches up in the playoffs, all will be forgotten, but so far, not great.


Really tough to gauge the value of the Theis trade because it was 100% motivated by financial considerations. Theis for Kornet + Wagner was always about luxury tax. Gafford coming back would have been better over Wagner, but WAS also gave up Troy Brown Jr. who's been good for CHI as part of the deal. Would they have done so if they weren't getting Gafford back?

I also think the Celtics would have needed to cut a big for more of a forward anyway. Kornet has been good too and I think they like his shooting so not sure even if they got Gafford he wouldn't have been waived for Parker anyway since that's the bigger positional need.
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Re: Trade Deadline Retrospective: Any Surprises? 

Post#36 » by HartfordWhalers » Fri May 7, 2021 11:08 am

bondom34 wrote:It's been a bit over a month since the deadline, so thought maybe a look back would be an interesting topic with about 10 games left in the season for the forum's discussion. Not necessarily a crow eating thread or anything, just a topic to note any movers or transactions that had good or bad results you didn't expect so much. Could be big, could be small, anything you think fits! If needed, a list of trades:

https://www.nba.com/news/2020-21-nba-trade-tracker

For me:

1. I think as of now the Clippers got a lot better deal than I'd thought. The 2nds still seem a bit much, but given Williams's playoff limitations, they've gotten good play from Rondo.

2. Under "minor moves that might have helped a lot more than expected" Daniel Gafford has seemed to be really helpful for the Wizards defense and their push into the play in.

3. Under slightly less surprising but still a solid pickup, Torrey Craig has been helpful for the Suns.

4. A bit disappointed in the Miami Bjelica move, his numbers are down and he hasn't played much. Haven't seen much of the Heat, but hoped for more.

5. Another slight downer was Fournier to Boston. They didn't pay much, and I like it still for them fine but he hasn't been terribly great shooting wise I don't believe.


Why isn’t Bradley getting more run?
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Re: Trade Deadline Retrospective: Any Surprises? 

Post#37 » by BullyKing » Fri May 7, 2021 12:25 pm

HartfordWhalers wrote:
bondom34 wrote:It's been a bit over a month since the deadline, so thought maybe a look back would be an interesting topic with about 10 games left in the season for the forum's discussion. Not necessarily a crow eating thread or anything, just a topic to note any movers or transactions that had good or bad results you didn't expect so much. Could be big, could be small, anything you think fits! If needed, a list of trades:

https://www.nba.com/news/2020-21-nba-trade-tracker

For me:

1. I think as of now the Clippers got a lot better deal than I'd thought. The 2nds still seem a bit much, but given Williams's playoff limitations, they've gotten good play from Rondo.

2. Under "minor moves that might have helped a lot more than expected" Daniel Gafford has seemed to be really helpful for the Wizards defense and their push into the play in.

3. Under slightly less surprising but still a solid pickup, Torrey Craig has been helpful for the Suns.

4. A bit disappointed in the Miami Bjelica move, his numbers are down and he hasn't played much. Haven't seen much of the Heat, but hoped for more.

5. Another slight downer was Fournier to Boston. They didn't pay much, and I like it still for them fine but he hasn't been terribly great shooting wise I don't believe.


Why isn’t Bradley getting more run?


Bondom can correct me but I think he's been dealing with a knee injury
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