Warriors All-In and Plan for the Future

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WAKEANT
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Re: Warriors All-In and Plan for the Future 

Post#21 » by WAKEANT » Tue May 4, 2021 8:36 am

Wolveswin wrote:
Lenneth wrote:
Wolveswin wrote:And here starts the never ending circle discussion.

NBA has trade rules, so if Warriors are going to do a trade (hence discussion on a trade board) they have to add salary filler. Wiggins is about only filler — other than the complicated S&T of Oubre that has even more rules and takes, a) Oubre to be willing and b) receiving team to want Oubre. These are two things out of Warriors control.

Also out of Warriors control is Wiggins value as perceived by every NBA team outside of San Fran. As a fan and maybe even an organization, sure praise the “new Wiggins” and get on your hill with he “has changed his stripes.” No doubt this is your position you are negotiating from. Just doesn’t mean automatically and unequivocally any organization has to buy what you are selling.

Plenty of no trade Wiggins threads out there for review. Like the Wiseman for Wood or Wiseman + Looney for Turner. Those and more are also realistic options for Warriors this off-season. But if trading Wiggins as in OP (because he is only major salary filler on roster) don’t expect other clubs to value Wiggins as you do.


And how many of those trade proposals are from Warriors fans? Not that many. It's generally other team's fans making Wiggins/Wiseman/Wolves pick, not Warriors fans. As I mentioned before, Warriors fans understand Wiggins' perceived trade value to other teams. That's why you don't see a lot of Warriors fans making a trade proposal involving Wiggins.

Warriors fans understand that Wiggins' 30 mils salary filler is needed to make a big trade. But at the same time, Warriors already won 3 championships with the current core, which means being in 4th-5th seeds in the West is meaningless. Many trade proposals involving players like Hayward, Wood, Turner for Warriors' major assets like Wiseman/Wolves pick may improve Warriors marginally in short term but nowhere near the championship contender. Warriors' goal is to win the championship. If they exhaust all their assets to get to 4th seed with no asset to improve the team, what good does it do to Warriors? Warriors would only make a deal that makes sense for them. If those deals are not present, they will just use picks to build for the future.

Then there is Klay. No matter what Warriors get, if Klay is not close to what he was, Warriors' run is over. If so, they better use their assets to draft rookies instead. I don't expect any major deal until Warriors figure out what kind of Klay will return.

Despite a good season with Warriors, he will be traded in a second, if a deal can put Warriors to the championship contender. If the deal doesn't, there is no reason for Warriors to trade Wiggins or their assets. Hayward, Val, and Melton definitely doesn't.

That is a fair take. But that last sentence you don’t know that. If KD level actuations are Warriors fan expectations — be ready to be majorly let down. Wiseman has lost considerable to all value since driving off the lot, Wiggins is negative filler around the league, and if Wolves keep their 2021 — the Wolves owed 2022 1st takes a value hit (Wolves having a healthier full season of Towns/Beasley/Russell, improved Edwards, and adding top 3 1st). All stacks up for nothing in return close to KD level (or even same ballpark).

No doubt if all-in on 1 consolidated big name asset is your take — and that might not come until Klay tested and true — wait for that. But OP isn’t that. JVal is a great center, Hayward on Warriors would be major Wiggins upgrade, and like in OP, Warriors keep/regain all their 1sts (so not a sexy all chips for a big name player). This middle path just might make them a top 2 seed (with Healthy Kaly) AND they retain some of their assets.


Yeah, we do know that Val, Hayward, Melton, Wood, Grant, Lowry, Horford, Aldridge (before he retired) won't get GSW to championship favorite status; so with this knowledge -- trading all of their prime assets makes zero sense. A smart franchise does NOT break itself of all it's future assets just to be in the championship conversation. A smart franchise will spend all of it's future assets ONLY if makes them THE Favorite to win a NBA championship. I believe GSW knows a little something about that.
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Re: Warriors All-In and Plan for the Future 

Post#22 » by Wolveswin » Tue May 4, 2021 12:37 pm

Topofthekey wrote:This is one of the weaker returns for Wiseman + #4

There have been numerous trades posted that all top what the Warriors are getting here

Pascal Siakam and Domantas Sabonis have all been proposed for Wiseman + #4

But here they get Hayward? Ugh, brutal

Those aren’t better. Those are just different. Those are using all assets to obtain one asset — and Warriors are left with a bare cupboard.

If you prefer the big name acquisition for all of Warriors assets, sure, plenty of threads doing that. This trade is much more than Hayward (I know you know that but saying so didn’t fit your agenda) and leaves the Warriors with a future (by not spending all their assets for one big name acquisition).
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Re: Warriors All-In and Plan for the Future 

Post#23 » by Wolveswin » Tue May 4, 2021 12:40 pm

WAKEANT wrote:
Wolveswin wrote:
Lenneth wrote:
And how many of those trade proposals are from Warriors fans? Not that many. It's generally other team's fans making Wiggins/Wiseman/Wolves pick, not Warriors fans. As I mentioned before, Warriors fans understand Wiggins' perceived trade value to other teams. That's why you don't see a lot of Warriors fans making a trade proposal involving Wiggins.

Warriors fans understand that Wiggins' 30 mils salary filler is needed to make a big trade. But at the same time, Warriors already won 3 championships with the current core, which means being in 4th-5th seeds in the West is meaningless. Many trade proposals involving players like Hayward, Wood, Turner for Warriors' major assets like Wiseman/Wolves pick may improve Warriors marginally in short term but nowhere near the championship contender. Warriors' goal is to win the championship. If they exhaust all their assets to get to 4th seed with no asset to improve the team, what good does it do to Warriors? Warriors would only make a deal that makes sense for them. If those deals are not present, they will just use picks to build for the future.

Then there is Klay. No matter what Warriors get, if Klay is not close to what he was, Warriors' run is over. If so, they better use their assets to draft rookies instead. I don't expect any major deal until Warriors figure out what kind of Klay will return.

Despite a good season with Warriors, he will be traded in a second, if a deal can put Warriors to the championship contender. If the deal doesn't, there is no reason for Warriors to trade Wiggins or their assets. Hayward, Val, and Melton definitely doesn't.

That is a fair take. But that last sentence you don’t know that. If KD level actuations are Warriors fan expectations — be ready to be majorly let down. Wiseman has lost considerable to all value since driving off the lot, Wiggins is negative filler around the league, and if Wolves keep their 2021 — the Wolves owed 2022 1st takes a value hit (Wolves having a healthier full season of Towns/Beasley/Russell, improved Edwards, and adding top 3 1st). All stacks up for nothing in return close to KD level (or even same ballpark).

No doubt if all-in on 1 consolidated big name asset is your take — and that might not come until Klay tested and true — wait for that. But OP isn’t that. JVal is a great center, Hayward on Warriors would be major Wiggins upgrade, and like in OP, Warriors keep/regain all their 1sts (so not a sexy all chips for a big name player). This middle path just might make them a top 2 seed (with Healthy Kaly) AND they retain some of their assets.


Yeah, we do know that Val, Hayward, Melton, Wood, Grant, Lowry, Horford, Aldridge (before he retired) won't get GSW to championship favorite status; so with this knowledge -- trading all of their prime assets makes zero sense. A smart franchise does NOT break itself of all it's future assets just to be in the championship conversation. A smart franchise will spend all of it's future assets ONLY if makes them THE Favorite to win a NBA championship. I believe GSW knows a little something about that.

Again, if you think Siakam or Sabonis are players obtainable for all Warriors assets — and you are ok with a bare cupboard as result — and you believe those names leave you with a better chance at championship, plenty of those threads. If you think Warriors will do that, create a thread explains how. This isn’t that. Says so right in the title.
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Re: Warriors All-In and Plan for the Future 

Post#24 » by Resistance » Tue May 4, 2021 1:39 pm

Things have evolved over the years and I have it as quite difficult to almost unlikely that the Warriors will be able to make the moves that will transform them to being the favorite to win the championship.

Even if Thompson comes back at 90% of what he was

* The salary cap won't jump enough to facilitate another Durant walkling through the door

* A collection of Wiggins, Wiseman, Looney, Poole, Lee, Mulder, Paschall, Smalagic, Golden State 2021 first and maybe Minnesota 2021 first probably isn't going to be equal to the supporting group of the past (Livingston, Iguodala, etc)

* Green's three point shooting has declined in recent years

* I have the FO as weaker with the departutres of Jerry West, Larry RIley and Travis Schlenk in recent years
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Re: Warriors All-In and Plan for the Future 

Post#25 » by Topofthekey » Tue May 4, 2021 1:45 pm

Resistance wrote:Things have evolved over the years and I have it as quite difficult to almost unlikely that the Warriors will be able to make the moves that will transform them to being the favorite to win the championship.

Even if Thompson comes back at 90% of what he was

* The salary cap won't jump enough to facilitate another Durant walkling through the door

* A collection of Wiggins, Wiseman, Looney, Poole, Lee, Mulder, Paschall, Smalagic, Golden State 2021 first and maybe Minnesota 2021 first probably isn't going to be equal to the supporting group of the past (Livingston, Iguodala, etc)

* Green's three point shooting has declined in recent years

* I have the FO as weaker with the departutres of Jerry West, Larry RIley and Travis Schlenk in recent years

There was a trade a while back that had the Warriors acquiring Turner and Brogdon

You don't think a lineup of Turner - Green - Klay - Brogdon - Curry is going to be a favourite to win the championship?

I mean, you have an MVP level player in Curry surrounded by 4 other high calibre players

How much more stacked do you want the Warriors to be?
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Re: Warriors All-In and Plan for the Future 

Post#26 » by Resistance » Tue May 4, 2021 2:04 pm

Topofthekey wrote:
Resistance wrote:Things have evolved over the years and I have it as quite difficult to almost unlikely that the Warriors will be able to make the moves that will transform them to being the favorite to win the championship.

Even if Thompson comes back at 90% of what he was

* The salary cap won't jump enough to facilitate another Durant walkling through the door

* A collection of Wiggins, Wiseman, Looney, Poole, Lee, Mulder, Paschall, Smalagic, Golden State 2021 first and maybe Minnesota 2021 first probably isn't going to be equal to the supporting group of the past (Livingston, Iguodala, etc)

* Green's three point shooting has declined in recent years

* I have the FO as weaker with the departutres of Jerry West, Larry RIley and Travis Schlenk in recent years

There was a trade a while back that had the Warriors acquiring Turner and Brogdon

You don't think a lineup of Turner - Green - Klay - Brogdon - Curry is going to be a favourite to win the championship?

I mean, you have an MVP level player in Curry surrounded by 4 other high calibre players

How much more stacked do you want the Warriors to be?




Since Brogdon + Turner are nearly $40 million in salary, Wiggins will be part of the outgoing salary for Golden State.

What was the proposed trade and which team backed out?
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Re: Warriors All-In and Plan for the Future 

Post#27 » by Topofthekey » Tue May 4, 2021 2:14 pm

Resistance wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:
Resistance wrote:Things have evolved over the years and I have it as quite difficult to almost unlikely that the Warriors will be able to make the moves that will transform them to being the favorite to win the championship.

Even if Thompson comes back at 90% of what he was

* The salary cap won't jump enough to facilitate another Durant walkling through the door

* A collection of Wiggins, Wiseman, Looney, Poole, Lee, Mulder, Paschall, Smalagic, Golden State 2021 first and maybe Minnesota 2021 first probably isn't going to be equal to the supporting group of the past (Livingston, Iguodala, etc)

* Green's three point shooting has declined in recent years

* I have the FO as weaker with the departutres of Jerry West, Larry RIley and Travis Schlenk in recent years

There was a trade a while back that had the Warriors acquiring Turner and Brogdon

You don't think a lineup of Turner - Green - Klay - Brogdon - Curry is going to be a favourite to win the championship?

I mean, you have an MVP level player in Curry surrounded by 4 other high calibre players

How much more stacked do you want the Warriors to be?




Since Brogdon + Turner are nearly $40 million in salary, Wiggins will be part of the outgoing salary for Golden State.

What was the proposed trade and which team backed out?

Found it:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2069944&hilit=turner+brogdon+warriors#p90061158
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Re: Warriors All-In and Plan for the Future 

Post#28 » by Resistance » Tue May 4, 2021 2:56 pm

Topofthekey wrote:
Resistance wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:There was a trade a while back that had the Warriors acquiring Turner and Brogdon

You don't think a lineup of Turner - Green - Klay - Brogdon - Curry is going to be a favourite to win the championship?

I mean, you have an MVP level player in Curry surrounded by 4 other high calibre players

How much more stacked do you want the Warriors to be?




Since Brogdon + Turner are nearly $40 million in salary, Wiggins will be part of the outgoing salary for Golden State.

What was the proposed trade and which team backed out?

Found it:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2069944&hilit=turner+brogdon+warriors#p90061158




I thought that you were going to bring up an actual trade discussion between Indiana and Golden State.
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Re: Warriors All-In and Plan for the Future 

Post#29 » by Topofthekey » Tue May 4, 2021 3:00 pm

Resistance wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:
Resistance wrote:


Since Brogdon + Turner are nearly $40 million in salary, Wiggins will be part of the outgoing salary for Golden State.

What was the proposed trade and which team backed out?

Found it:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2069944&hilit=turner+brogdon+warriors#p90061158




I thought that you were going to bring up an actual trade discussion between Indiana and Golden State.

I was just saying that's some of the trade ideas that's been thrown around here

Warriors definitely has a shot at building a contender, depending on what happens to the Wolves pick
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Re: Warriors All-In and Plan for the Future 

Post#30 » by Commodor » Tue May 4, 2021 6:12 pm

Wiseman & the MIN pick are not being moved together unless it's for a bonafide star.

This is laughably bad for GSW.
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Re: Warriors All-In and Plan for the Future 

Post#31 » by Resistance » Tue May 4, 2021 6:17 pm

Commodor wrote:Wiseman & the MIN pick are not being moved together unless it's for a bonafide star.

This is laughably bad for GSW.



What is the cutoff for a star?

Top 20?

Top 30?

Top 40?

Top 50?
Wolveswin
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Re: Warriors All-In and Plan for the Future 

Post#32 » by Wolveswin » Tue May 4, 2021 8:04 pm

Topofthekey wrote:
Resistance wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:Found it:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2069944&hilit=turner+brogdon+warriors#p90061158




I thought that you were going to bring up an actual trade discussion between Indiana and Golden State.

I was just saying that's some of the trade ideas that's been thrown around here

Warriors definitely has a shot at building a contender, depending on what happens to the Wolves pick

Assuming Pacers would say yes, and assuming Warriors assets are enough, you do realize this kind of trade requires ALL Warriors’ assets? Meaning, the cupboard is empty. No draft picks or rookie contracts to build around.

This is an option, just needs to be made clear again, OP is NOT such a scenario. OP is trading for a better to much better team now and not trading the future farm (maybe even improving the future) to accomplish. Apples to oranges scenario.
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Re: Warriors All-In and Plan for the Future 

Post#33 » by Apz » Tue May 4, 2021 8:09 pm

wisemans value is tanking. Anyone think the 4th or 5th pick is actually worth a star? Im not. Wiseman at that salary is pretty much neutral value or atleast not close to returning a star. Specially if they need to add wiggins for salary
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Re: Warriors All-In and Plan for the Future 

Post#34 » by WAKEANT » Tue May 4, 2021 9:04 pm

Resistance wrote:
Commodor wrote:Wiseman & the MIN pick are not being moved together unless it's for a bonafide star.

This is laughably bad for GSW.



What is the cutoff for a star?

Top 20?

Top 30?

Top 40?

Top 50?


Top 10 AND a frontcourt player.
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Re: Warriors All-In and Plan for the Future 

Post#35 » by Wolveswin » Tue May 4, 2021 9:06 pm

WAKEANT wrote:
Resistance wrote:
Commodor wrote:Wiseman & the MIN pick are not being moved together unless it's for a bonafide star.

This is laughably bad for GSW.



What is the cutoff for a star?

Top 20?

Top 30?

Top 40?

Top 50?


Top 10 AND a frontcourt player.

Name a top 10 player Warriors’ assets warrant (value wise) and that team would entertain said assets.
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Re: Warriors All-In and Plan for the Future 

Post#36 » by Resistance » Tue May 4, 2021 9:27 pm

WAKEANT wrote:
Resistance wrote:
Commodor wrote:Wiseman & the MIN pick are not being moved together unless it's for a bonafide star.

This is laughably bad for GSW.



What is the cutoff for a star?

Top 20?

Top 30?

Top 40?

Top 50?


Top 10 AND a frontcourt player.




Here are 20 names in no particular order. Some people will swap a few others in, but this is close enough for a list that I created in less than five minutes.

Older
LeBron, Harden, Durant, CP3, Lillard

Younger
Doncic, A Davis, Giannis, Donovan Mitchell, Beal, Towns, Embiid, Zion, Jokic, Booker, SGA, K Leonard, Brown, Morant, Ingram

Something like Donic, Zion, SGA and Morant are still on rookie scale contracts so that a trade could be created without Wiggins. For the rest of the names, Wiggins would probably need to be included which impairs the value of the Wiseman + Minnesota first package.
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Re: Warriors All-In and Plan for the Future 

Post#37 » by Warriorfan » Tue May 4, 2021 9:39 pm

Resistance wrote:Things have evolved over the years and I have it as quite difficult to almost unlikely that the Warriors will be able to make the moves that will transform them to being the favorite to win the championship.

Even if Thompson comes back at 90% of what he was

* The salary cap won't jump enough to facilitate another Durant walkling through the door

* A collection of Wiggins, Wiseman, Looney, Poole, Lee, Mulder, Paschall, Smalagic, Golden State 2021 first and maybe Minnesota 2021 first probably isn't going to be equal to the supporting group of the past (Livingston, Iguodala, etc)

* Green's three point shooting has declined in recent years

* I have the FO as weaker with the departutres of Jerry West, Larry RIley and Travis Schlenk in recent years


After 2022 Wiggins deal is exp. So tradeable.

Green and Curry can play for exemptions then max deals like Duncan and Manu. 2023 as well.
As one of the richest teams in the NBA the opportunity can be there if a player wants to come.

Most teams can easily make space if needed.
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Re: Warriors All-In and Plan for the Future 

Post#38 » by Wolveswin » Tue May 4, 2021 9:39 pm

Resistance wrote:
WAKEANT wrote:
Resistance wrote:

What is the cutoff for a star?

Top 20?

Top 30?

Top 40?

Top 50?


Top 10 AND a frontcourt player.




Here are 20 names in no particular order. Some people will swap a few others in, but this is close enough for a list that I created in less than five minutes.

Older
LeBron, Harden, Durant, CP3, Lillard

Younger
Doncic, A Davis, Giannis, Donovan Mitchell, Beal, Towns, Embiid, Zion, Jokic, Booker, SGA, K Leonard, Brown, Morant, Ingram

Something like Donic, Zion, SGA and Morant are still on rookie scale contracts so that a trade could be created without Wiggins. For the rest of the names, Wiggins would probably need to be included which impairs the value of the Wiseman + Minnesota first package.

So by top 10 you meant top 20+?

Good to have wild dreams. Of those listed maybe 2 are in the stratosphere of “available” and Warriors would have to dump every asset they have to even be in the fringe ballpark. Lame.
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Re: Warriors All-In and Plan for the Future 

Post#39 » by Resistance » Tue May 4, 2021 9:57 pm

Warriorfan wrote:
Resistance wrote:Things have evolved over the years and I have it as quite difficult to almost unlikely that the Warriors will be able to make the moves that will transform them to being the favorite to win the championship.

Even if Thompson comes back at 90% of what he was

* The salary cap won't jump enough to facilitate another Durant walkling through the door

* A collection of Wiggins, Wiseman, Looney, Poole, Lee, Mulder, Paschall, Smalagic, Golden State 2021 first and maybe Minnesota 2021 first probably isn't going to be equal to the supporting group of the past (Livingston, Iguodala, etc)

* Green's three point shooting has declined in recent years

* I have the FO as weaker with the departutres of Jerry West, Larry RIley and Travis Schlenk in recent years


After 2022 Wiggins deal is exp. So tradeable.

Green and Curry can play for exemptions then max deals like Duncan and Manu. 2023 as well.
As one of the richest teams in the NBA the opportunity can be there if a player wants to come.

Most teams can easily make space if needed.



Spotrac
Green

Basketball Insiders
Golden State

Basketball Reference
Golden State

Draymond Green
2023-24 is player option.
Signed $4-yr/$99.6M extension August 3, 2019.
Signed July 9, 2015 for 5 years, $82,000,000.



I checked three different web sites and didn't find any that had a PO (Player Option) or TO (Team Option) for Green in summer 2022.


Green and Curry can play for exemptions then max deals like Duncan and Manu.


Please provide a link to a valid web site that has a PO or TO for Green in summer 2022.
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Re: Warriors All-In and Plan for the Future 

Post#40 » by Resistance » Tue May 4, 2021 10:02 pm

Wolveswin wrote:
Resistance wrote:
WAKEANT wrote:
Top 10 AND a frontcourt player.




Here are 20 names in no particular order. Some people will swap a few others in, but this is close enough for a list that I created in less than five minutes.

Older
LeBron, Harden, Durant, CP3, Lillard

Younger
Doncic, A Davis, Giannis, Donovan Mitchell, Beal, Towns, Embiid, Zion, Jokic, Booker, SGA, K Leonard, Brown, Morant, Ingram

Something like Donic, Zion, SGA and Morant are still on rookie scale contracts so that a trade could be created without Wiggins. For the rest of the names, Wiggins would probably need to be included which impairs the value of the Wiseman + Minnesota first package.

So by top 10 you meant top 20+?

Good to have wild dreams. Of those listed maybe 2 are in the stratosphere of “available” and Warriors would have to dump every asset they have to even be in the fringe ballpark. Lame.



I ran it out to 20 names since there could be pushback on some (Harden, LeBron etc) because of age and maybe some quibble about the inclusion or exclusion of others.

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